Why is man supposed to be evil?

Discuss philosophical questions regarding theism (and atheism), and discuss religion as it relates to philosophy. This includes any philosophical discussions that happen to be about god, gods, or a 'higher power' or the belief of them. This also generally includes philosophical topics about organized or ritualistic mysticism or about organized, common or ritualistic beliefs in the existence of supernatural phenomenon.
Vijaydevani
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Re: Why is man supposed to be evil?

Post by Vijaydevani »

Felix wrote:
Vijaydevani said: He (God) would not have a problem with man being evil because that is the direction the imperfect creation would inevitably take and He would be okay with it. Obviously, He is not.
Why do you say "Obviously, He is not"?
Because of the number of times He has had to commit genocide to get rid of evil.
A little knowledge is a religious thing.
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Felix
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Re: Why is man supposed to be evil?

Post by Felix »

Vijaydevani said: He (God) would not have a problem with man being evil because that is the direction the imperfect creation would inevitably take and He would be okay with it. Obviously, He is not.
I asked: Why do you say "Obviously, He is not"?
Vijaydevani: Because of the number of times He has had to commit genocide to get rid of evil.
Well, evil is still here, we are not rid of it, so therefore one can assume that the creator of this world, if there be one, has intended this evil to exist, at least until it has fulfilled it's evolutionary purpose and is no longer needed.
"We do not see things as they are; we see things as we are." - Anaïs Nin
Supine
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Re: Why is man supposed to be evil?

Post by Supine »

Vijaydevani wrote:A few theists in the forum are convinced that man is intrinsically evil. They are also convinced that man is made in the image of God. So the question is, why did God make a man in His own image, and make him intrinsically evil, considering that God is intrinsically good? Also, if God is all that is good, how did evil get created? If Satan created evil, who created Satan?
Not sure if I answered in this thread in the past or not.

The concept of Original Sin originates with St. Augustine. I can't recall if the Orthodox Christians subscribe to the concept of Original Sin or not.

But Catholic teaching on Original Sin has been and is that God is good, what God creates is good, and man being a creation of God is good. Man being good has desires for virtue however due to inherited Original Sin man is vulnerable and wounded to sin or vice.

Protestantism via Martin Luther has a more negative view of man via its own Original Sin doctrine.




God created all the angelic creatures in Christian doctrine. Some of those angelic creature under the influence of Lucifer the smartest and most beautiful of the angelic creatures and their leader, rebelled against God. Driven from heaven they were vanquished to hell. These angels became known as demons.

All the angelic creatures--like human children today born to mothers--were endowed with free will. Like children born to mothers and raised by mothers and fathers, and children disobeying or going against the moral teachings of their parents due to children having free will, the angels were endowed with the freedom of will to disobey God.

If I recall the teachings correctly (maybe I don't), God took away the free will of all the angels that remained loyal to him.

Free will is a "curse" in some ways. What if parents raise their son not to sexually violate women but for one reason or another he does forcibly rape a woman one day. Who created his evil? His mother? Isn't his mother to blame given she created him (with genetic help from the biological male parent) and no God exists. The creator of the person is to blame for evil, right?

Most human parents don't want that blame if their child commits evil or transgressions. But most of those same parents have no problem blaming God the parent.

I'm not sure "Satan created evil" is a doctrine of Christianity. At least not in all branches. Satan in Christianity is known as the accuser. Like a prosecutor in an American criminal court. Like the prosecution team that goes after a serial killer or even OJ Simpson. Satan is also known as a being that tempts children, teens, and adults. And Satan and other demons can harass individual humans through what Christianity terms "oppression." That is something different--yet still a powerful mechanism--than the doctrine of "possession." The latter is more severe but requires some consent.

But as I said... I don't think Christian doctrine is that Satan created evil. I'm not sure what the doctrine says about origins in terms of cause or creation of evil. But from my own understanding of Christian culture and various teachings I get the idea that evil necessarily came about as any opposite of "the things of God."

-- Updated September 18th, 2016, 5:02 pm to add the following --
Lucius wrote:
And I believe the reason this interpretation is not known in churches is because of the way the Bible has been interpreted to suit the needs religious institutions over roughly 2000 years. An institution like the Catholic church needs laws to enforce a homogeneous belief, and it is religious institutions that are responsible for teaching the idea that man is inherently evil. They say man is evil so that people need the church, to keep them coming back for salvation....because obviously the church has the secret ingredient needed for salvation?
That's not what the Catholic Church teaches. Just like some people claim the Catholic Popes by intention and power created the religion of Islam. The Catholic Church teaches exactly the opposite of what you claim it teaches. Protestant belief through Martin Luther is closer to your claims. The sacrament of confession in Catholicism and in Orthodoxy as well has nothing to do with viewing man as evil (actually, it indicates man is motivated towards virtue) but has to do with grace from God and forgiveness by God to his wounded creatures wounded by sin.

The sacraments are why priests exist--not "to help people" in the modern sense--and that is why a priesthood exists in a church, with the church being spoken of in the New Testament, and not once a "Bible" being mentioned in the New Testament or even by Paul to the church of Corinth which he not only holds authority (him, not a Bible) over but encourages to follow his teachings. His, not the Bible.

Which brings the question as to where the Bible came from? Well, if the Bible predated the church, and the church of Corinth, then logically the letters by Paul to the church of Corinth could not be in the Bible. The New Testament itself provides written evidence that both Paul and the church of Corinth existed before the Bible. Church is a term that roughly translates into "gathering community." Even before Jesus was crucified on the Cross he had a "gathering community" he presided over and taught. Certainly, this gathering community became more distinct (and by Christian doctrine only came into existence after the death of Jesus and at Pentecost).

The Bible itself was formed as a whole agreed upon canon in some Council of North Africa in the 300's or 400's AD by Bishops of the Oriental, Eastern Orthodox, and Catholic Church before they divided. So, it makes about as much sense to believe the Koran is true but claim Islam is not true. And likewise, to claim the Catholic Church is false but the Bible it created is true doesn't make much sense. Plenty--of what became know as Gnostic texts--were intentionally excluded from the Bible by those Early Bishops.

The New Testament predates these labels--and so did the Early Church. Although, the New Testament written in Greek originally, might use the Greek term "catholic" (universal). The Protestant Lutherans and Oriental and Eastern Orthodox use the term "catholic" too but with a small letter "c." The small letter "c" for catholic generally refers to a Christian spiritual conception and the universality of the Church. The big letter "C" is used to denote the bureaucratic, organizational Church headed by the Pope in Rome, that people refer to as "the Catholic Church."
Vijaydevani
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Re: Why is man supposed to be evil?

Post by Vijaydevani »

Felix wrote:Well, evil is still here, we are not rid of it, so therefore one can assume that the creator of this world, if there be one, has intended this evil to exist, at least until it has fulfilled it's evolutionary purpose and is no longer needed.
In that case, why does He try so hard to get rid of it?

-- Updated September 18th, 2016, 11:32 pm to add the following --
Supine wrote:.

But as I said... I don't think Christian doctrine is that Satan created evil. I'm not sure what the doctrine says about origins in terms of cause or creation of evil. But from my own understanding of Christian culture and various teachings I get the idea that evil necessarily came about as any opposite of "the things of God."
This seems to suggest that evil came about of it's own accord and God did not intend to create it.

Honestly, this thread has become irrelevant because the people who believe that man is intrinsically evil do not seem to be contributing anything here. So the rest of us who do not believe it are left to discuss the issue which kind of makes this whole thing pointless.
A little knowledge is a religious thing.
Blake 789
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Re: Why is man supposed to be evil?

Post by Blake 789 »

There aren't any religions where man is evil I don't know where you're getting that from. There are religions that are keen to point out your flaws as a human which is a fair no-one is perfectly good 100% of the time you can't really argue with that.
Vijaydevani
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Re: Why is man supposed to be evil?

Post by Vijaydevani »

Blake 789 wrote:There aren't any religions where man is evil I don't know where you're getting that from. There are religions that are keen to point out your flaws as a human which is a fair no-one is perfectly good 100% of the time you can't really argue with that.
Well, if you read my post above, you would have also seen that I pointed out that a few theists, when I started this thread 2 years ago, used to proclaim that man was intrinsically evil. They are not here and even when they were, never really contributed to this thread to explain how that was possible.
A little knowledge is a religious thing.
Blake 789
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Re: Why is man supposed to be evil?

Post by Blake 789 »

Vijaydevani wrote: Well, if you read my post above, you would have also seen that I pointed out that a few theists, when I started this thread 2 years ago, used to proclaim that man was intrinsically evil. They are not here and even when they were, never really contributed to this thread to explain how that was possible.
They may have been using the word evil to mean someone who is a bit an asshole in general rather than someone who goes around raping and murdering children, I'm sure they would understand the difference. Everyone is an asshole imo, especially the people who don't think they are.
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Sy Borg
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Re: Why is man supposed to be evil?

Post by Sy Borg »

Blake 789 wrote:
Vijaydevani wrote:Well, if you read my post above, you would have also seen that I pointed out that a few theists, when I started this thread 2 years ago, used to proclaim that man was intrinsically evil. They are not here and even when they were, never really contributed to this thread to explain how that was possible.
They may have been using the word evil to mean someone who is a bit an asshole in general rather than someone who goes around raping and murdering children, I'm sure they would understand the difference. Everyone is an asshole imo, especially the people who don't think they are.
:lol: the truth is not always elegant.

Our meddlesome natures stem from the mixed blessing / curse of being a eusocial species. All eusocial animals are aggressive, intrusive PITAs - humans, ants, bees, wasps and mole-rats, no exceptions. Most are deadly.

Gathering in large groups and specialising is a brilliant survival strategy, peerless for utilitarian empowerment. However, it's appalling for the peace of mind of most inhabitants, each of whom is pestered, badgered and pressured by others.
Vijaydevani
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Re: Why is man supposed to be evil?

Post by Vijaydevani »

Blake 789 wrote:
Vijaydevani wrote: Well, if you read my post above, you would have also seen that I pointed out that a few theists, when I started this thread 2 years ago, used to proclaim that man was intrinsically evil. They are not here and even when they were, never really contributed to this thread to explain how that was possible.
They may have been using the word evil to mean someone who is a bit an asshole in general rather than someone who goes around raping and murdering children, I'm sure they would understand the difference. Everyone is an asshole imo, especially the people who don't think they are.
No, they meant the kind of evil that justified God committing genocide which included children. I would assume God would have a high threshold of assholery and that would not be enough for genocide.

Anyway, this is an old thread which someone recently reveived.
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OntheHorizon
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Re: Why is man supposed to be evil?

Post by OntheHorizon »

Vijaydevani wrote:A few theists in the forum are convinced that man is intrinsically evil. They are also convinced that man is made in the image of God. So the question is, why did God make a man in His own image, and make him intrinsically evil, considering that God is intrinsically good? Also, if God is all that is good, how did evil get created? If Satan created evil, who created Satan?
They make this claim to defend their own lack of ability to demonstrate the characteristics of this god in their own lives and to defend the gods murderous acts upon humanity in their book. If god is wonderful and we are evil, it simple makes it easy to claim anything you want about the god without having to defend it or demonstrate it by claiming that we are too evil to demonstrate it and we are too evil to understand him and we are too evil to challenge him.
There is no evil and the only reason we ever gave in to believing in it was because we are good.
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Renee
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Re: Why is man supposed to be evil?

Post by Renee »

Vejaydevani, I read through some of the posts here.

You have two or three recurring themes, which I could distill from the readings:

1. God is perfect. How did he manage to create imperfect things?
2. God is intrinsically good. How and why did he create evil?
3. Man is made in God's image. Why is man different from god?
4. Man obtained free will, which made him imperfect and evil, when he ate the apple; but to choose to eat the apple he had already had free will, so how come he acted with the tool which he got later?

Answers:
1. What seems imperfect to us, is perfect. We just judge it differently.
2. Evil is not bad. In fact, all evil is good, except man, in his limited perspective, judges it to be evil. The Bible did not help much in this aspect.
3. God did not want to create competition for himself. He wanted playthings. So he omitted the more powerful elements from his repertoire when he created man and put some of his own characteristics into him.
4. Man ate the apple not out of his free will. God made him eat it. It ties in how we judge events "evil" when evil does not exist. Remember, everything man does is done through god's will and god's power.

--------------------------

There. I am an atheist, much like yourself (conjecture; I could be wrong about you); the above are sheerly conceptual, and made for argument's sake; consider me the "devil's advocate".

I just wanted to show the theists in this thread that actually real objections can be raised to your insinuations, without even needing to go out on a limb or without bringing up irrelevant points.
Ignorance is power.
Vijaydevani
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Re: Why is man supposed to be evil?

Post by Vijaydevani »

Renee wrote:Vejaydevani, I read through some of the posts here.

You have two or three recurring themes, which I could distill from the readings:

1. God is perfect. How did he manage to create imperfect things?
2. God is intrinsically good. How and why did he create evil?
3. Man is made in God's image. Why is man different from god?
4. Man obtained free will, which made him imperfect and evil, when he ate the apple; but to choose to eat the apple he had already had free will, so how come he acted with the tool which he got later?

Answers:
1. What seems imperfect to us, is perfect. We just judge it differently.
2. Evil is not bad. In fact, all evil is good, except man, in his limited perspective, judges it to be evil. The Bible did not help much in this aspect.
3. God did not want to create competition for himself. He wanted playthings. So he omitted the more powerful elements from his repertoire when he created man and put some of his own characteristics into him.
4. Man ate the apple not out of his free will. God made him eat it. It ties in how we judge events "evil" when evil does not exist. Remember, everything man does is done through god's will and god's power.

--------------------------

There. I am an atheist, much like yourself (conjecture; I could be wrong about you); the above are sheerly conceptual, and made for argument's sake; consider me the "devil's advocate".

I just wanted to show the theists in this thread that actually real objections can be raised to your insinuations, without even needing to go out on a limb or without bringing up irrelevant points.
1. If it is all perfect, why does God judge us?
2. If evil is good, why are we punished for doing evil?
3. Come on. Seriously?
4. In that case, again why are we judged by God, if we are actually carrying out his will?

Also, read the OP. It is addressed to some theists who believe that man is intrinsically evil. And they do consider evil to be a bad thing. You saying evil is not bad, does not change what they believe. So you actually arguing for them does not work because you do not believe what they believe. They don't believe it is all perfect. You do. They do not seem to believe in the play thing theory either. And they do believe that man has freewill. They do not believe that God made man do it. So actually all your arguments are pretty much unacceptable to those theists too.

I have made it clear a few posts ago that this thread is irrelevant now because none of those theists bothered to address my thread.
A little knowledge is a religious thing.
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Felix
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Re: Why is man supposed to be evil?

Post by Felix »

Vijaydevani: I have made it clear a few posts ago that this thread is irrelevant now because none of those theists bothered to address my thread.
There are at least a couple of posts that addressed your question: the simple answer is that the "natural" unenlightened man is ignorant, ignorance is evil, and therefore the natural man is evil (not good).

"But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned." (1 Corinthians 2:14).
"We do not see things as they are; we see things as we are." - Anaïs Nin
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TSBU
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Re: Why is man supposed to be evil?

Post by TSBU »

I have the feeling that many threads go to far.

Well, "evil" must be defined.

Why do some people say that "people" is evil (or assholes)? because they feel better if they think that everybody is like them, or they can use that to take control over people, who will not fight for justice if they think "we are the same". At least that's one of the most common reasons to say that. "Everybody lies".
And... because history, and what I see if I look through mu window, shows too much evil.

-- Updated November 3rd, 2016, 4:02 pm to add the following --

Lie*
Vijaydevani
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Re: Why is man supposed to be evil?

Post by Vijaydevani »

Felix wrote:
Vijaydevani: I have made it clear a few posts ago that this thread is irrelevant now because none of those theists bothered to address my thread.
There are at least a couple of posts that addressed your question: the simple answer is that the "natural" unenlightened man is ignorant, ignorance is evil, and therefore the natural man is evil (not good).

"But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned." (1 Corinthians 2:14).
That takes us back to square one. Why does "the natural man not receive the things of the Spirit of God"? Does he have an option to choose?
A little knowledge is a religious thing.
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