Lifer After Death: The Evidence
- Orhederay10
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Lifer After Death: The Evidence
Have you ever read this book regarding death? Have you ever encountered such an event in which you have seen yourself the return of a soul from beyond? or Have you experienced it yourself? Death is the ultimate reality we can never avoid of.... We are always into the state of perishable existence in this world. We do suffer and died eventually...
tell me your opinions and insights about the reality of Death?
- Sy Borg
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Re: Lifer After Death: The Evidence
1. "Lights out", like deep sleep or coma. In this model most of information around the organism is dissipated, effectively lost.
2. Reincarnation of certain aspects of oneself, which for practical means and purposes is the same as #1. However, reincarnation includes the idea of certain informational bundles carrying over from life to life.
3. Dreaming in the last minutes of life, with subjective time dilation creating an effective subjective eternity. NDE studies have suggested significant time dilation in some NDE accounts, which is unsurprising since dreams themselves involve subjective time dilation. It's possible that a dying brain could produce extreme time dilation effects, possibly exponential.
4. Interesting dynamics in the Planck scale. We do not know how reality operates at this scale. Perhaps information lost at larger scales is preserved at the fundamental scale, like a mosaic that grows ever more detailed. In this model all information in all scales of reality is preserved.
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Re: Lifer After Death: The Evidence
Also 3.4. Interesting dynamics in the Planck scale. We do not know how reality operates at this scale. Perhaps information lost at larger scales is preserved at the fundamental scale, like a mosaic that grows ever more detailed. In this model all information in all scales of reality is preserved
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I like Greta's "at the Planck scale" idea. But which particular Planck unit of a life would be perpetuated? The second last one or the twelfth one after being born? Do you get to choose which memory? If so, that might account for hauntings by world-locked ghosts.
Or, if there are Planck units that apply to memories, which of all the huge number of memories is going to be preserved? If, say, a memory of holding a loved one's hand is preserved, how can this be unless the brain/mind that holds the memory is also preserved as a going system?
- Rederic
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Re: Lifer After Death: The Evidence
It may be that while a person is unconscious it could be possible for the brain to produce "dreams"
It is at its worst when it deludes us into thinking we have all the answers for everybody else.
Archibald Macleish.
- Sy Borg
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Re: Lifer After Death: The Evidence
With this speculative idea, the information is imprinted into the finest granulation of reality, and the complexity of the information matrix would be such that it would need to be multidimensional. So all events, including memories, would be preserved, but simply not readily accessible. The idea is not miles from fossil records. With sufficiently advanced technology# we could follow the causal steps of anything or anyone at the Planck scale back to the big bang*. We would also be able to see if there are persistent patterns appearing in chains of lives as per the reincarnation or recurrence models.Belinda wrote:... which particular Planck unit of a life would be perpetuated? The second last one or the twelfth one after being born? Do you get to choose which memory? If so, that might account for hauntings by world-locked ghosts.
Or, if there are Planck units that apply to memories, which of all the huge number of memories is going to be preserved? If, say, a memory of holding a loved one's hand is preserved, how can this be unless the brain/mind that holds the memory is also preserved as a going system?
* This does not necessarily imply determinism because, while each of us have only one timeline (the one that's being traced), there are numerous alternatives that could have manifested, but didn't.
# The technology would be many thousands or even millions of years away.
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Re: Lifer After Death: The Evidence
Greta wrote:With this speculative idea, the information is imprinted into the finest granulation of reality, and the complexity of the information matrix would be such that it would need to be multidimensional. So all events, including memories, would be preserved, but simply not readily accessible. The idea is not miles from fossil records. With sufficiently advanced technology# we could follow the causal steps of anything or anyone at the Planck scale back to the big bang*. We would also be able to see if there are persistent patterns appearing in chains of lives as per the reincarnation or recurrence models.Belinda wrote:... which particular Planck unit of a life would be perpetuated? The second last one or the twelfth one after being born? Do you get to choose which memory? If so, that might account for hauntings by world-locked ghosts.
Or, if there are Planck units that apply to memories, which of all the huge number of memories is going to be preserved? If, say, a memory of holding a loved one's hand is preserved, how can this be unless the brain/mind that holds the memory is also preserved as a going system?
I begin to get the picture, Greta, thanks to your very clear explanation. I'm not sure about the reincarnation or recurrence bit but the rest of it is enough for me to be going on with.
The main part that bothers me is your application of "events". What differentiates one event from another event if not reality's Planck unit ? However, reality's Planck unit is not I think what we normally are conscious of; I suppose that we normally are conscious of narrative connections, not units.(Unless the thigh bone connects unto the leg bone: unless Greta had posted about those Planck units I'd not have asked that particular question and she'd not have replied, etc.)
(Greta continued)* This does not necessarily imply determinism because, while each of us have only one timeline (the one that's being traced), there are numerous alternatives that could have manifested, but didn't.
My question about the relevance of narratives doesn't imply determinism either, as how people cobble stories together aren't necessarily what are the cases.
I am not thoroughly confused but pretty confused for all that.
# The technology would be many thousands or even millions of years away.
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Re: Lifer After Death: The Evidence
I can't sensibly extrapolate too much on what is already highly speculative, but (whattheheck) I envisage a multidimensional Plank scale matrix that perhaps holds past information in other dimensions, but it's a wild stab in the dark.Belinda wrote:The main part that bothers me is your application of "events". What differentiates one event from another event if not reality's Planck unit ? However, reality's Planck unit is not I think what we normally are conscious of; I suppose that we normally are conscious of narrative connections, not units.(Unless the thigh bone connects unto the leg bone: unless Greta had posted about those Planck units I'd not have asked that particular question and she'd not have replied, etc.)
Some theorists predict the Planck scale to be relatively static, informational in nature, while others posit it as a seething broth of virtual particles. Some say it doesn't exist at all. Others think there are smaller and more fundamental dynamics still.
It would be surprising if we had already arrived at the fundamental nature of reality with a mere 27 km collider when theoretically, with suufficient tech and resources, one could have a collider the size of the solar system. What might such a machine yield with forces of that measure? Surely it would uncover aspects of reality that we cannot possibly interrogate (by that means, anyway). That's where the deepest aspects of reality become effectively unknowable - not necessarily due to spooky ineffable qualities, but simply due to financial, resource and engineering challenges that invariably limit our capacity to study reality.
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Re: Lifer After Death: The Evidence
D'Souza is widely known to be a conservative hack - not too bright, a convicted abuser of women who avoided jail time despite his ex-wife's pleadings to the court - so it's pretty hard to take much of what he says seriously.Orhederay10 wrote:Life After Death: The Evidence is Authored by D'nesh D'souza himself.
Some time ago there was a book written by a author with the wonderfully ironic name of Malarkey in which he described dying (car accident, I think), going to heaven, meeting Jesus, etc etc etc. Then after the book was published he recanted, said he made the whole thing up. The accident was real but his life-after-death experience was completely fabricated. Credibility = 0.Orhederay10 wrote:tell me your opinions and insights about the reality of Death?
Then there was the story of Dr Eben Alexander who described dying and going to heaven. Turns out Dr Alexander was a bit less than truthful about some of the story. Credibility = 0.
Then there was my father, who was "brought back" after his heart stopped in the ICU. The docs worked on him for about 20 minutes or so, complete with those electrical paddles and the whole schmear. When he finally was brought back to consciousness, he described...
... nothing.
No white light. No Jesus. No dead relatives. No sense of floating above his body. Not even a sense of time; he thought he had only been unconscious for a few seconds.
He "came back" convinced that there is no afterlife.
That's first-hand, from my father. Credibility = 100.
I'll go with what my father said, to me, in person, rather than what wife-beater D'Souza or fraudsters Malarkey or Alexander say.
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Re: Lifer After Death: The Evidence
Greta! Thanks for introducing it anyway and in the meantime I will let it settle into my brainSome theorists predict the Planck scale to be relatively static, informational in nature, while others posit it as a seething broth of virtual particles. Some say it doesn't exist at all. Others think there are smaller and more fundamental dynamics still.
- LuckyR
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Re: Lifer After Death: The Evidence
What can be said with certainty though is that the human psyche finds comfort when dealing with an unpleasant thing by inventing a silver lining to help deal with the tragedy of death.
- Sy Borg
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Re: Lifer After Death: The Evidence
Another "security blanket" is the idea that we disappear at death with zero consequences regarding the conduct of our lives.LuckyR wrote:While it is entirely possible that there is life after death, using the recollections of folks who aren't getting sufficient oxygen to their brain as "evidence" is basically a non-starter, logically speaking.
What can be said with certainty though is that the human psyche finds comfort when dealing with an unpleasant thing by inventing a silver lining to help deal with the tragedy of death.
Anything can act as a comfort or a torment, depending on one's perspective. It is irrelevant to philosophical issue. It's not as though any of us need a cautionary tale about anecdotal evidence. My point is that anecdotal evidence, especially in the amount recorded with proper rigour by Ian Stevenson, is still some kind of evidence, just not conclusive.
BTW, do you think it makes sense to discount a near death testimony on account of the fact that the person is dying?
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Re: Lifer After Death: The Evidence
True, I have no doubt that some will choose to use an absence of life after death in an identical fashion for identical reasons, also not "evidence".Greta wrote:Another "security blanket" is the idea that we disappear at death with zero consequences regarding the conduct of our lives.LuckyR wrote:While it is entirely possible that there is life after death, using the recollections of folks who aren't getting sufficient oxygen to their brain as "evidence" is basically a non-starter, logically speaking.
What can be said with certainty though is that the human psyche finds comfort when dealing with an unpleasant thing by inventing a silver lining to help deal with the tragedy of death.
Anything can act as a comfort or a torment, depending on one's perspective. It is irrelevant to philosophical issue. It's not as though any of us need a cautionary tale about anecdotal evidence. My point is that anecdotal evidence, especially in the amount recorded with proper rigour by Ian Stevenson, is still some kind of evidence, just not conclusive.
BTW, do you think it makes sense to discount a near death testimony on account of the fact that the person is dying?
Well, if a court of law seriously questions eyewitness testimony of folks with alcohol or mind altering drugs in their system, I think being dead would trump 3 martinis in the "unreliable testimony" area.
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Re: Lifer After Death: The Evidence
If considering what it feels like to die, I'm more inclined to seriously consider the opinions of those who have come closest to death than those who actually have no idea but operate on theory.LuckyR wrote:Well, if a court of law seriously questions eyewitness testimony of folks with alcohol or mind altering drugs in their system, I think being dead would trump 3 martinis in the "unreliable testimony" area.
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Re: Lifer After Death: The Evidence
Oh, I agree that such testimony is the best we have, it's just not proof of anything.Greta wrote:If considering what it feels like to die, I'm more inclined to seriously consider the opinions of those who have come closest to death than those who actually have no idea but operate on theory.LuckyR wrote:Well, if a court of law seriously questions eyewitness testimony of folks with alcohol or mind altering drugs in their system, I think being dead would trump 3 martinis in the "unreliable testimony" area.
- Sy Borg
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Re: Lifer After Death: The Evidence
Then we're in agreement. However, I'm not sure you'll agree with me that it's suggestive of "something more".LuckyR wrote:Oh, I agree that such testimony is the best we have, it's just not proof of anything.
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