Religion, what is it and where did it come from?

Discuss philosophical questions regarding theism (and atheism), and discuss religion as it relates to philosophy. This includes any philosophical discussions that happen to be about god, gods, or a 'higher power' or the belief of them. This also generally includes philosophical topics about organized or ritualistic mysticism or about organized, common or ritualistic beliefs in the existence of supernatural phenomenon.
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Aristocles
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Re: Religion, what is it and where did it come from?

Post by Aristocles »

Are we perhaps saying the kings are a form of shamans?
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Re: Religion, what is it and where did it come from?

Post by YIOSTHEOY »

Aristocles wrote:Are we perhaps saying the kings are a form of shamans?
More like that the kings and pharaohs abducted the priests and told them what to say to the people -- that the king/pharaoh is a son of god and therefore must be obeyed. More taxes. More young soldiers. More female concubines.
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Burning ghost
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Re: Religion, what is it and where did it come from?

Post by Burning ghost »

I'll try and outline what I mean by shamanism.

Probably best to start by saying how a shaman becomes a shaman.

I have mentioned already that shamanic initiation is distinct. The subject speaks of going to the underworld and having their body torn to pieces and/or consumed by some "spirit/s". They are then effectively reborn and have knowledge bestowed upon them.

It may be helpful to think of this as entering a psychotic state and understanding the mechanisms of this state.

Once shamans have had such an experience they learn how to decend and ascend to different "spiritual" realms. I have found it helpful here to refer to Jung and his work on the unconscious.

So the basic principles of what are shaman is is they go through a metaphorical death and are then reborn. They learn to take spiritual journeys (in some instances they also act as psychpomps). Shamans are neither religious figures nor sorcerers, although they can still take on parts of these roles too (such as being a spiritual guide, psychopomp, as is the case in S American shamanic practice).

Essentially the shaman is a specialist in the human soul/psyche.

Please understand I am trying to condense about twenty pages of text here to highlight what is relevant for my purpose here. If you want more precision then read the book I referenced earlier.

Note: Shamanism is not the be all and end all of what I am trying to say, although it ties into much of what is important.
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Aristocles
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Re: Religion, what is it and where did it come from?

Post by Aristocles »

So Shamanism might be a microcosm, but a greater cosmic level than individual dreams, of the general historical process of attempting to satisfy the psyche/soul's need for deep answers, answers for which our other tools have not been adequate? This in turn exposes a great vulnerability, one better documented with the history of organized religion, exposure for which YIOSTHEOY is quick to point to the historical pattern of power abuse?
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Re: Religion, what is it and where did it come from?

Post by Burning ghost »

Altered states of consciousness. What are they and how are they important?

What ASCs do is give the subject a very vivid and extraordinary experience. It is really quite difficult to explain such phenomenon to those who have not experienced them. I think most people have had some kind of profound experience in their lives. ASCs are highly emotionally charged experiences. The most common form to people today is probably through somekind of intoxication.

Generally ASCs by more "natural" means are much harder to obtain (by natural means I refer to previously mentioned list of sensory dep., fasting, etc.,.). Often enough senses become more accute and the subject is more "open". Perspective becomes more plastic.

Now I'll move onto to Jung as his work on the unconscious and archetypes. An easy book to read by Jung would be one aimed at the general public call "Man and his Symbols". It is an easy read and, I found, a good introduction before taking on his other work.
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Re: Religion, what is it and where did it come from?

Post by Gross Ryder »

What is it?
Religion is a human quest for searching and seeking out the forces that bring everything into existence, or direct, influence and control the self and the world.

Where did it come from?
It comes from an inner drive for the mysterious, the unknown, from which a living being can derive it's purpose.
In Primordial man (first created) the Shaman/Medicine man/Visionary/Seer/Leader of a tribe has been gifted certain powers as part of the
devolution of the Spirit into the world, the powers which are used by him/her to interpret the indications and signs of the Spirit and then to
guide, heal, educate the rest of the tribe and to find a worthy successor to whom his/her powers can be transferred after death.
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Re: Religion, what is it and where did it come from?

Post by Rr6 »

(**) = conscious

\**/ = conscious female--see triangular embracement

*Y* = conscious male--dispersement

\Y/ = birds-eye-view of tetra{4}heron

The minimal, occupied space integrity of Universe, can be no less than the 3D tetrahedron.

There exists limits, and it is said, that, a man or woman need to know their limits. Humanity needs to know its limits. imho

r6
"U"niverse > UniVerse > universe > I-verse < you-verse < we-verse < them-verse
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Re: Religion, what is it and where did it come from?

Post by Atreyu »

Burning Ghost, as a lifelong student of esoteric doctrine, I am impressed with your understanding of things. It's rare to find people that even get the gist of esotericism....
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Re: Religion, what is it and where did it come from?

Post by Burning ghost »

To briefly refer back to how a shaman becomes shaman. A question asked preiously by someone.

This is quite simple. Now I have explained what ASCs are and how they are induced. All you need to do is imagine some prehistoric man lost in the wood maybe injured, maybe starving, but in some capacity forced into a physical state that helps induce an ASC.

It is sometimes reported that a shaman becomes a shaman simply by feeling some need to wander off alone and to return weeks later having "met with spirits" and been given some kind of "knowledge". Note all of these instances induce the subject expressing how they have be destroyed and reborn in some manner or another.

I think it may be worth mentioning that this is something that is some what similiar to Jungian "individuation" although this comparison is not very solid it does relate to a pattern of how the psyche changes/develops.

Also important to add that shamans are not neurotics. They certainly appear to experience what a neurotic experiences, but they are not consumed by it. They understand the mechanism taking place in them where the neurotic loses themselves and becomes disorientated.

-- Updated June 9th, 2016, 1:44 am to add the following --

Atreyu -

If you think so then I hope you continue to follow this thread and add your own comments. I am interested as to what you are referring to when you say "esoteric". This term is often synonymois with gnosticism, hermeticism and occultism in general. These things for certain have to relate to a specific psychological need in humans, and I refer to something congenital too in human behaviour (I am obviously taking some liberties with the term "congenital", probably better to say "innate").
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Rr6
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Re: Religion, what is it and where did it come from?

Post by Rr6 »

r6--When is does 1 + 1 = 4? When does 3 + 3 = 12? What is fair, what is true?
Absolute truths stem from discoveries regarding our finite, occupied space Universe.
Morals stem from humans having some common agreements of fair play.
Religion is a set of metaphysical-1 tools and physical processes as tools that some humans attempt to practice on a regular basis, to maintain the emotional and mental balance while keeping a personal integrity towards self and others.

Ive headr it said, that the one thing all great spiritual thinkers, or yogi types, had in common, was that, they sweated every day.

People who do auditory mantras or chants are not that different from people who sing. It is good for the soul/biological.

r6
Spirit-1 is metaphyscial-1, mind/intellect/concept--- spirit-of-intent ---,
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Spirit-2 is physical/energy ergo fermions, bosons and any aggregate combination thereof,
Spirit-3 is gravity-- positive shaped outer surface arcs of a torus-like shape,
Spirit-4 is dark energy-- negative shaped outer surface arcs of a torus-like shape.
"U"niverse > UniVerse > universe > I-verse < you-verse < we-verse < them-verse
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Burning ghost
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Re: Religion, what is it and where did it come from?

Post by Burning ghost »

Now for Jung. If it seems like I am jumping around a lot it is because these all tie in together.

If I could give you the three main books I have found of use I would refer you to:

1) Shamananism: Archiac techniques of ecstacy, by Mircea Eliade (which is still considered today as probably the best anthropological source in the subject matter. He also has written about "religion" in other works that I have sadly not had the opportunity to read yet).

2) The Collective Unconscious and Archetypes, by Carl Jung. It is almost like he did the research for me. I have lent my copy to friends before but they found it heavy going ... I did read "Man and His Symbols" prior to this which would probably help.

3) The Art of Memory, by Francis Yates. She was a scholar mainly of the renaissance period and had a special interest in esoteric philosophy. Of particular interest to her was Giodano Bruno to whom she directs more focus in other works.

I don't expect anyone to have read any of these of have the inclination to. I think for the most part people are most familiar with Jung and have heard of his archetypes at least in passing.

-- Updated June 10th, 2016, 3:30 am to add the following --

Archetypes are something thatvis often misinterpreted and difficult to understand especially when this term is used in reference to ancient Greek philosophy! The Collective Unconscious is another term which has been taken on and warped by thr New Age movements and taken, often, out of complete context to what Jung meant.

Anyway, an archetype is basically something that relates to our innate nature as human beings and is expressed through our art, language and culture in general. Common archetypes are things like the sage, mother, trickster, serpent etc.,. What is probably the most misunderstood thing is that each archetype is particular to each individual. Jung through extensive work with numerous patients merely uncovered such common themes. These common themes can be seen as human themes and are reproduced in mythology quite vividly. Jung through his process of Active Imagination (which I will not go into here) managed to relate figures of mythology to archetypal representations. As an example if I was to dream of Batman and have repeated dreams about Batman then Batman is how something of my internal unconscious nature is being represented to me. The thing is only I can say what Batman means to me not anyone else. Also what Jung makes clear in the casw of dream interpretation is that to really dig deep into the dream content and to focus on all the details leads away from thr meaning, in fact it causes the subject to create a meaning. What the archetype is is a the stark representation of something as it appears to us. To consider and over analysis just a metaphorical representation is to disregard the image for what it is. Much like if I look upon a piece of art, read a piece of poetry, or such a thing, and say it means this or that and that the artist meant this or that. I might very well be correct in my analysis, but what I am really doing is saying what it means to me I am not merely an observer I am an active participant. I see part of myself in what I observe, I am re-presented to myself.

-- Updated June 10th, 2016, 9:09 am to add the following --

Just to make clear. Archetypes are not objective entities that can be applied from person to person without alteration. This is simply because subjective experience is just that. What the archetype does show us is a common metaphorical representation, a process takes place in the unconscious and when this rises into consciousness we only then see its outline

-- Updated June 13th, 2016, 2:50 am to add the following --

Now I want to talk about religions.

In it quite clear that each religion has its own set of gods. Ancient egypt, greece and rome. Norse gods, hindu gods, etc.,. Also with the gods there are representation of various spirits, angels or demons.

I doubt anyone would despute that there are considrable parallels between these various groups.

Regardless of when you were born or where you will have been exposed to some form of mythology. In modern society this need not be religious in intent. The most blatant example being in the form of super heroes or other character based narratives.

Now think about mneumonics. What aids memory? We know emotional narratives aid memory. We know personifications aid memory. Take this into account and then look at any visual representation of a god, demon or spirit. I find the hindu pantheon to be probably the most telling in thus respect. What we find is a mass of symbolic representation that aids the memory to understand what the said god/spirit represents. They may also be animistic representations used too. We will see gods of war, gods of love, gods of fertility and many more.

The commonly accepted idea of religion is that we represented natural phenomenon as being produced by some conscious power we called a god or spirit. Over time these were worshipped and believed in more and more. I do not despute that this is obviously the case in many historical instances.

What is not open for question is that knowledge was first passed down to others orally. What aids the memory aids the consistancy of the information being passed on. Narrative is a very powerful way to instill information into the mind. The mundane it not see easy to remember and what needs to be added is exaggeration and emotional cues. All mythological stories possess these factors. They are not made purely to entertain they are made to teach us and help us learn about our world.

Now consider something familiar to us all. Dreaming.

If we were all brought up on a strict narrative diet of ancient greek mythology and new by heart the pantheon of gods and gorgans, from Achillies to Zeus, Cronos to Medusa ... then if we dreamt of these personifications we would understand what they represented. In a sense they would act as psychological markers. The difficulty is that one persons representation of Cronos may not be the same as anothers. There is always room for personal interpretation. As for myself I know that representation of the underworld and water are metaphors for my unconscious because I have trained myself to take on that "belief" (for want of a better word).

Just to be clear I am not saying the reason for religious mythos is to intetpret dreams. Although it is certainly a repercussion that may be put to use, and often is, for the psychologist. The biggest fault lies in believing how accurate such things can be as all content is personal and the individual needs to be guided in interpretation of psychological elements not exposed to the bias of anothers view.

Very early on there is relation between sleep, death and dream states. The underworld, under our western judeo-christian cultural heritage, is equated with hell. Needless to say these images presented to us of hell relate very well to what I have previously referred to in shamanic initiation, dismemberment and destruction of the body. One faces "demons" and is then reborn anew. What many people may call this in modern terms would be psychosis. These states can certainly be dangerous for any individual and those around them. There is confusion between meditive states, psychotic states and ASCs in general. In fact many people have theorised that many ancient religious figures had brain disorders (schizophrenia, epilepsy, mania, types of autism and such). I don't doubt that this may very well be true in some cases. I do doubt that in all cases such diagnosis is correct or fully understood even in the present day.

-- Updated June 16th, 2016, 3:44 am to add the following --

To return to ASCs and why they are important to the founding of religious institutions.

Given certain intense experiences during ASCs there is a wish to share this experience with others and to help others attain such states. Much like if you were to atch a movie or read a book that gave you inspriation, alternatuve perspectives and access to new information, you would wish to share this experience with others not only to help along your understanding, but also to share the pleasure of the experience.

The difference with ASC is that you cannot give anyone a book to read or a movie to view. What I can do is pass on the information from the ASC as best I can. If ASCs are common enough then someone will understand and relate to the outline of the information given. What we are talking about here is something innately human, about an experience that is primordial in human nature and can be seen in some form or another in everything we do.

All myths retained by cultures are retained because they possess qualities that allow them to be retained more easily than other methods. If I give you a list of concepts or a string of numbers you are much more likely to remember them if I steep them in narrative and apply emotional value to them. What you remember is not so much the singular bits of information, but the narrative and emotional relationship of these bits.

Through a natural progression this emotional narrative template is shown to us over the ages and across multiple cultures. Failed narratives are forgotten and/or altered by the faculty of memory.

ASCs are virile. They are ladden with emotion and possess a whole array of intriguing possibilities and interpretations. They are furtile fields from which narratives can develop.

-- Updated June 27th, 2016, 2:58 am to add the following --

What I am really saying here is that all "religion" stems from ASCs. All religions possess blatant traces of techniques required to achieve ASCs and all relgions possess mneumonic markers through their myths and pantheons. An obvious use of these personification in dreams is a common social reference. If a Christian dreams of a character from thr bible, or the dream interpreter recognises such a character in his patients dream, then they can discern meaning and see a compotent of the latent unconscious machination. To put it bluntly I would say that religious initiates through ASC experiences become accustomed to subtleties of interpretation and may have actually believed in the actual existence of these representations as supernatural entities or maybe not. It makes no difference to how the message is received and the symbol being shown from the unconscious.

In the west in the political arena Christainity tried to monopolise this potent human feature. Occult practices were turned into witch craft where they were merely symbolic references of emotions. Demons and Angels represent different sides of the same coin. The unconsicous "underworld" was turned into "hell" and the celestial symbols were turned into "heaven". Many magick practitioners were burnt at the stake and some managed to avoid the wrath of the church by only using the angelic symbols and shunning the demonic ones (or simply renaming then). These practitioners were basically psychoanalysis and it is expected that some would lose their grip on reality given their fields of research. Basically we are talking about people willingly inducing psychotic states ... needless to say this can be dangerous. It is no wonder people began to fear them.

If you wish to look for evidence of these psychotic episodes then pick up any religious text and read. The stories of prophets the world over will show them in prolonged periods of isolation, fasting, concentration and numerous other techniques for aquiring ASCs.

The Epic of Gilgamesh is a telling story too. There are some very similar descriptions of shamanic initiation including destruction of the body, and there is the theme of man againstbhis animal nature (or as I would interpret it as encountering unconscious content).

Religious institutions seem to be means of helping direct people towards ASCs. I am not sure if this was the intent of religion or not but all religions feature some means of entering an ASC. The thing is to enter a full blown ASC requires a natural disposition and extreme stress. People are not willing to starve themselves or deprive themselves of company or basically inflict soem form of "pain" on themselves. The ASC is after all a direct focus of the self on the self. It can be just as rewarding as it is painful.

In my experience what people gain from attaining such states is a lack of fear. It allows an uninhibited approach to everything and leaves the subject incredibly open. On a mass scale if you can open up such an openness of people you can direct them. There is empowerment and responsibility through ASCs and they can make you lose yourself or find yourself.

I am not trying to frame religion as being about manipulation of the masses. I am trying to show that at its heart religion comes from the manipulation of the self and that through exposure to ASCs individuals can gain great understanding and just as easily lose understanding and sense of self. I believe, intentionally or not, religion holds in its history the techniques and general guidance for guarding against spontaneous ASCs and controlled ASCs to prevent and to understand our natural ability to produce what is commonly, and scornfully, referred to in modern society as "psychosis". I don't think psychosis is a negative thing that is why I said "scornfully". It is, no doubt, potentially very dangerous.

If you've been bothering to follow I would be interested to hear your comments.

Thank you.
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Kevin Levites
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Re: Religion, what is it and where did it come from?

Post by Kevin Levites »

It may be much simpler than everyone believes.

There are reasons to believe that religious tendancies are hard-wired into the human brain.

Jane Goodall documented--and filmed--"religious" behavior in bonobos when they encountered a beautiful waterfall.
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Aristocles
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Re: Religion, what is it and where did it come from?

Post by Aristocles »

Even if one believes hardwiring in human brains is SIMPLE, it begs the question of where such wiring comes from.
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Kevin Levites
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Re: Religion, what is it and where did it come from?

Post by Kevin Levites »

Aristocles wrote: April 28th, 2019, 8:50 pm Even if one believes hardwiring in human brains is SIMPLE, it begs the question of where such wiring comes from.
I agree.

My only point is that the roots of religulosity may actually predate the evolution of humanity.

Certianly--if this is the case--religulosity must have some survival value.

Perhaps this is because we're social animals, and seeing a hierarchy in the natural world mimics our own hierarchies....so we have better social cohesion, which is an important thing if we need to work together to hunt, kill, and eat dangerous animals.
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Aristocles
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Re: Religion, what is it and where did it come from?

Post by Aristocles »

Evolution of humanity, survival value and our connection with other species may be helpful to reflect on what religion is and where it comes from.

Humans harnessing the ability to reflect (evolution?), be it from significant survival skills such as harnessing fire, plow invention, etc. may have freed up time to appreciate ourselves/surroundings, maybe it opened up different avenues to terrify ourselves with reflecting upon ourselves. Maybe we were desperate to separate ourselves from other animals, animals frighteningly becoming personified. Religion appears to be a reasonable coping skill for the coming of rationalization, and a psychological 3D printer, giving our thoughts/feelings a more tangible narrative, stories refined/manipulated through power struggles for millenia.
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