Existence and afterlife probability

Discuss philosophical questions regarding theism (and atheism), and discuss religion as it relates to philosophy. This includes any philosophical discussions that happen to be about god, gods, or a 'higher power' or the belief of them. This also generally includes philosophical topics about organized or ritualistic mysticism or about organized, common or ritualistic beliefs in the existence of supernatural phenomenon.
Grunth
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Re: Existence and afterlife probability

Post by Grunth »

Greta wrote:
Grunth wrote:The REALITY (what is ACTUALLY experienced) is no death. Only conditions have changed. The condition which represents the experience of a person changing to the condition of no experience of a person.
That is an assumption. A fairly logical one, given what we know at this stage, but still only an assumption.
On the contrary, it is an exact description of the experience. There is no death, in experienced reality (merely what we, as humans, experience whether regarded as limited or not), unless we can experience death. 'Death of a person' is the assumption. What is actual to our sensory equipment is the disappearance of said person.
Greta wrote:This, however, I can agree with:
We have absolutely no access to a person that once was 'alive'.

Concepts of a 'spiritual' nature are not dissimilar to the concept of 'natural process' because no one knows what really has actually happened FROM experience (what we can do as the forms we are).
The issue from our living perspective is lack of access. What goes on subjectively is largely unknown.
I am, in this discussion, ignoring the 'unknown' specifically because unknowns are not reality ('reality' as defined by the actual experience of human sensory equipment).
Greta wrote:
As I'm sure you probably realize, Near 'death' is not 'death'.

And 'physiological evidence' of 'death' is always a view from something 'alive'. There is no death to be experienced ever. From experience there is a person and then there is no experience of that person, apart from thoughts about him or her.
We don't know what death is from a first person POV so, again, you are assuming something to be true based on our current, very limited knowledge of the nature of reality.
It IS, however, true, as truth can only really be what our knowledge is (knowledge as defined by the actual experience of human sensory equipment). To say 'our current' experience is to elude to merely future possibilities thereby falling into the category of maybes and other assumptions.

'Current' is ALL that is true (not particularly dissimilar to that sentence of 'Now is the only reality').
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Re: Existence and afterlife probability

Post by Atreyu »

Steve3007 wrote:Atreyu:
It is almost a guarantee that awareness continues after death, just as much as it is a guarantee that all of the matter of the physical body will not disappear, and that all of the energy of the body will continue on also. Just like matter and energy never absolutely disappear, but at best only are transformed from one to the other, so too does awareness never absolutely disappear. It can merely be transformed, diminished, augmented, fragmented, swallowed up by a greater awareness, etc, but the raw material of awareness, and therefore "you", cannot ever absolutely disappear from existence.
I don't think that the analogy with the conservation of mass/energy is valid. Like all the laws of physics, that law is a generalisation of observations. It is arrived at by the logical process of induction. It is observed that various quantities in various equations that describe nature remain constant over time. So if you want to use the same technique and propose an equivalent law for awareness - a conservation of awareness law - you would have to propose some observations to back it up.
It's valid for those of us who support panpsychism. And this is philosophy, so I don't have to propose some observations to back it up. I only have to be logical. Which I am. To think that awareness absolutely disappears at death is wishful thinking.

But if you want an observation that backs me up, look at the 'virus conundrum'. The virus clearly shows us that there is no fine line between life and non-life. And clearly there is no fine line between awareness and the absence thereof. All we know is that generally speaking we differentiate between life and non-life, and awareness and non-awareness, but in practice we see that there is no fine line and the dualism is only a simplified view based on our subjective perception of the world.

You cannot go from absolute non-awareness to awareness, and then back to complete non-awareness again just because an egg and sperm come together, or because some molecules and atoms permanently decay. It's not that simple or either-or. We cannot say when or where awareness begins and ends, neither conceptually speaking nor even personally...
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Re: Existence and afterlife probability

Post by Sy Borg »

Grunth wrote:I am, in this discussion, ignoring the 'unknown' specifically because unknowns are not reality ('reality' as defined by the actual experience of human sensory equipment).
I see a place for unknowns in subjective reality. Consider, before the famous coffee cup experiment, all those whose attitudes towards strangers were unknowingly skewed by the fact that they were holding a warm or cool drink.

For me, the existence of unknowns precludes statements of certainty regarding the subjective domain in death. We have not received a report of post-death because if a person recovers and makes claims then it's assumed that they must have been alive.
It IS, however, true, as truth can only really be what our knowledge is (knowledge as defined by the actual experience of human sensory equipment). To say 'our current' experience is to elude to merely future possibilities thereby falling into the category of maybes ...
The existence of maybes is precisely what should be changing statements of fact into statements of possibility or probability. Perhaps what I interpret as definite statements of fact from you are just shorthand for, "Based on current knowledge so far it appears to me that probabilities favour the lack of any sense of existence once the brain dies".

If so, I can accept that statement. However, historically, the probable has not always turned out to be true, and science has often thrown up the unexpected.
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Re: Existence and afterlife probability

Post by Grunth »

Greta wrote:
Grunth wrote:I am, in this discussion, ignoring the 'unknown' specifically because unknowns are not reality ('reality' as defined by the actual experience of human sensory equipment).
I see a place for unknowns in subjective reality. Consider, before the famous coffee cup experiment, all those whose attitudes towards strangers were unknowingly skewed by the fact that they were holding a warm or cool drink.
'dead' and person 'disappeared' is a different league entirely. The coffee cup thing is to do with manipulation, particularly of egos. Disappearance of an entire ego-person, something we regard as 'death', is a wholly other and larger matter. No disappeared person to be manipulated by experiment. One can manipulate a mind to think differently ABOUT 'death', but I am merely separating facts from 'things about'.
Greta wrote:For me, the existence of unknowns precludes statements of certainty regarding the subjective domain in death. We have not received a report of post-death because if a person recovers and makes claims then it's assumed that they must have been alive.


Where they 'went' when apparently between 'not alive' and 'alive' tends to be something describable, so therefore memory is involved. A memory of the experience due to active sensory equipment, like a dream sequence.
Greta wrote:
It IS, however, true, as truth can only really be what our knowledge is (knowledge as defined by the actual experience of human sensory equipment). To say 'our current' experience is to elude to merely future possibilities thereby falling into the category of maybes ...

The existence of maybes is precisely what should be changing statements of fact into statements of possibility or probability. Perhaps what I interpret as definite statements of fact from you are just shorthand for, "Based on current knowledge so far it appears to me that probabilities favour the lack of any sense of existence once the brain dies".
Facts and possibilities or probabilities I am putting into two categories calling 'experience now' (or facts) Truth, and possibilities/probabilities not true (only 'true' in that they may exist as merely ideas).

I have no probabilities to report nor do I feel the need to believe in any, so this is not my agenda here.
Greta wrote:If so, I can accept that statement. However, historically, the probable has not always turned out to be true, and science has often thrown up the unexpected.
Yeah, the probable is still a guess. However, probables about 'death' are fairly non-existent. There are merely beliefs or hopes, which are merely things to be expected as a consequence of survival impulse imperatives. Optimism is an urge to feel one will somehow live forever, which, not unusually, gives rise to risk taking. Certainly without risk taking there would have not been all the societal and technological advances we enjoy..........and it is always a double edged sword, of course. But that is merely for 'alive' matters and I am not so much challenging that.
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Rederic
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Re: Existence and afterlife probability

Post by Rederic »

I see nothing obvious about this. Sure there is a rationale, but that is all it can be at this point. For example, can anyone explain what 'death' is as an experience?
Yes, I can't. Eleven years ago I had a cardiac arrest & 'died'. No heartbeat, no respiration & no reactions. I was dead in the clinical sense.

There remains a short window of opportunity for all the bodily functions to be restarted by restarting the heart. This is called resuscitation.

This is what happened to me. I have absolutely no recollection of the experience (or non experience).

In the last eleven years of attending heart clinics on a regular basis, i've yet to meet anyone who remembers anything about their death.

If you follow the evidence the answer is obvious, death is oblivion.

Every other theory or philosophy on this subject is merely wishful thinking.
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Grunth
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Re: Existence and afterlife probability

Post by Grunth »

Rederic wrote:
I see nothing obvious about this. Sure there is a rationale, but that is all it can be at this point. For example, can anyone explain what 'death' is as an experience?
Yes, I can't. Eleven years ago I had a cardiac arrest & 'died'. No heartbeat, no respiration & no reactions. I was dead in the clinical sense.

There remains a short window of opportunity for all the bodily functions to be restarted by restarting the heart. This is called resuscitation.

This is what happened to me. I have absolutely no recollection of the experience (or non experience).

In the last eleven years of attending heart clinics on a regular basis, i've yet to meet anyone who remembers anything about their death.

If you follow the evidence the answer is obvious, death is oblivion.

Every other theory or philosophy on this subject is merely wishful thinking.
I tend to agree about wish thinking. However, as you point out, your 'death' was not an experience for you as you did not experience anything, and no one else experienced your 'death'. A period of time passed, for those looking at a body which you once animated, where you weren't accessible.

-- Updated July 13th, 2016, 12:00 am to add the following --

And the 'dead' body was not accessible to you, during the time which you were not accessible.
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Re: Existence and afterlife probability

Post by Rederic »

As far as I can make out nobody experiences their death. I wouldn't mind betting that the number of people in this catagory far exceeds the number of people who are supposed to have had NDEs. You just never get to hear of them as there's nothing to report.
Religion is at its best when it makes us ask hard questions of ourselves.
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Re: Existence and afterlife probability

Post by Fanman »

Good post Greta (#43),

If the consciousness, "soul" or "spirit" of a person does travel somewhere after death, where would you speculate that it travels to, and what medium would it travel through? Do you think that a significantly advanced technology could actually collect and store consciousness, since consciousness is a form of information? It would seem to be a sceptical possibility, as our brains do that job, and as technology advances who knows? It seems problematic to me that the person can live on after death, primarily because it would involve the person existing without being tangible. Our consciousness is a product of our brains, therefore once the brain is dead / gone, there's no consciousness. Unless there's "another realm of existence" where the intangible can exist without physical attachment? Religion and spirituality propose (and propound) that such realms exist, yet scientific enquiry has yet to discover any such place(s) to my knowledge.

On the smallest scale consciousness might be composed of something tangible, but I think that electrochemical activity is as much as we've been able to surmise. It doesn't seem intuitive to me to think of an entire consciousness (which includes the whole person) as electrochemical activity. The experience of being, seems to be a lot more complex than that; almost irreducible. If you reduce a person (consciousness) to purely physical causes, you end up regressing until you get to the big bang and possibly beyond that! The reduction doesn't simply "stop" at the brain.

I also think that there can be extraordinary weirdness in life, even on the naturalist spectrum. On the one hand nature appears as being ordered and operating according to a series of "set" laws, but on the other hand its weird to think that everything just organised itself into systems which propagate life, as if done so by some naturalistic genie (to borrow your analogy :) ). I mean, how weird is it that cells divide, or that the earth rotates? We are used to these happenings because we experience them on a regular basis, but how weird might it seem to an alien who had never encountered anything like our solar system? Indeed, in that pure state of wonder, an alien could be forgiven for concluding that it was designed, even if no designer is actually present to be observed. So with the proposition of an after-life, it could well boil down to a resounding "who knows for sure!"

---

Interesting post Grunth (#44),

There may be a semantics issue, but I think that "death" (as you know) is the term we use to define when the person is not there any more. According to what we currently know, death is not an ongoing experience, because there's no person there to experience it. It is something or a moment that occurs when the person ceases to exist in their body. I agree that near death is not death, as when a person is near death they're still there, and their body is still functioning (alive), albeit not optimally. But once the process of death is complete, the person (as far as we know) is gone. Therefore, death is inextricably linked to the person not being there any more and the ceasing of the body being alive. By definition, if a person is dead then they no longer experience anything. Hence, we use the term "after-life" to describe any experiencing which happens post death, and experiencing is a quality of life. On the one side we have death and on the other side we have life - the two states are completely different from each other. The proposition of an after-life, supposes a blend of the two states, whereby one is both dead and alive. Absent from the dead body, yet experiencing life.
Theists believe, agnostics ponder and atheists analyse. A little bit of each should get us the right answer.
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Re: Existence and afterlife probability

Post by Sy Borg »

Fanman, one thing we do know is that cells divide and planets rotate because it works :) If something doesn't work - if it can't persist - then it appears briefly and goes away. So cells that divided persisted.

One can metaphorically apply survival of the fittest, and social theory, to the formation of galaxies and solar systems. Certain parts of a fairly homogeneous cloud of dust concentrated into asteroids. The biggest ones continually added to their bulk through gravity, and the bigger the proto-planets became, the more they "cleared their space" - effectively "consuming" all material around them and crushing "the competition". Today's fairly stable solar system configuration includes major concentrations (planets) - the "winners" of the cosmic tussle beforehand.

Now the same principles apply for the watery fizz on the surface of Earth that we call "life". Some persist better than others in different situations but we all must remain protected within the planet's atmospheric layer like bacterial cultures in agar. We air-breathing organisms are as firmly rooted to the atmosphere as trees are rooted to the ground. Like plants, we can be "potted" so we can survive for a while in hostile environments such as the deep ocean and space.

This fizz on the surface seems insignificant, but it contains by far the most concentrated informational complexity in the galaxy for trillions of kilometres in all directions. In terms of informational complexity, the Earth is akin to a giant star (maybe a galaxy or supermassive black hole??). Physical movements such as orbital hierarchies are less important informationally than the dynamics of informational concentration. Life's sphere of influence grows like an ant's nest or bacterial colony, pushing outwards in various directions, persisting most with the most useful lines of exploration. We humans, or at least some of us, are at the vanguard of those explorations.
Fanman wrote:If the consciousness, "soul" or "spirit" of a person does travel somewhere after death, where would you speculate that it travels to, and what medium would it travel through? Do you think that a significantly advanced technology could actually collect and store consciousness, since consciousness is a form of information? It would seem to be a sceptical possibility, as our brains do that job, and as technology advances who knows? It seems problematic to me that the person can live on after death, primarily because it would involve the person existing without being tangible. Our consciousness is a product of our brains, therefore once the brain is dead / gone, there's no consciousness. Unless there's "another realm of existence" where the intangible can exist without physical attachment? Religion and spirituality propose (and propound) that such realms exist, yet scientific enquiry has yet to discover any such place(s) to my knowledge.

On the smallest scale consciousness might be composed of something tangible, but I think that electrochemical activity is as much as we've been able to surmise. It doesn't seem intuitive to me to think of an entire consciousness (which includes the whole person) as electrochemical activity. The experience of being, seems to be a lot more complex than that; almost irreducible. If you reduce a person (consciousness) to purely physical causes, you end up regressing until you get to the big bang and possibly beyond that! The reduction doesn't simply "stop" at the brain.

I also think that there can be extraordinary weirdness in life, even on the naturalist spectrum. On the one hand nature appears as being ordered and operating according to a series of "set" laws, but on the other hand its weird to think that everything just organised itself into systems which propagate life, as if done so by some naturalistic genie (to borrow your analogy :) ). I mean, how weird is it that cells divide, or that the earth rotates? We are used to these happenings because we experience them on a regular basis, but how weird might it seem to an alien who had never encountered anything like our solar system? Indeed, in that pure state of wonder, an alien could be forgiven for concluding that it was designed, even if no designer is actually present to be observed. So with the proposition of an after-life, it could well boil down to a resounding "who knows for sure!"
Where would a soul travel? If souls exist, my guess is inwards somehow, perhaps the informational equivalent to supernovas, black holes and wormholes? What happens at the theoretical singularity of a black hole? We don't know. We can at least say that death seems similarly inaccessible.

The regression back to the big bang is a useful line of thought IMO. In a sense we all were that fast-growing blob of ultradense superheated plasma a little under 14 billion years ago. Yet, in another sense we are each recently emergent, novel and temporal. There need not be friction between the perspectives because it depends on your identification, how you define "you" - and "us". Consider the state of the universe before the big bang. People assume it was nothingness but it wasn't nothing enough to avoid the big bang (big grow?). So there was something in the nothingness. Planck scale stuff? Platonic forms? A deity? Whatever, we today are that original thing - whatever came first - but morphed via expansion, cooling and particulation over time.

In a sense we are all one consciousness, limited and shaped by our bodies, senses, environment and experience. Neuroscientists and author, Sam Harris, noted that there was nothing intrinsic or special about him personally that made him any different to a felon in prison. In a thought experiment Sam H pointed out that, had he been born with the criminal's senses, environment and had the same experiences, then he too would be a felon in prison today. Life on Earth can be seen as one blind exploratory push outwards, expressing itself in numerous forms.
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Re: Existence and afterlife probability

Post by Grunth »

Fanman wrote:Interesting post Grunth (#44),

There may be a semantics issue, but I think that "death" (as you know) is the term we use to define when the person is not there any more.


Yes, that is the word we use for the disappearance of a person from our experience. It just doesn't tell us what this disappearance is.
Fanman wrote:According to what we currently know, death is not an ongoing experience, because there's no person there to experience it.
Correction. There is no person HERE (in OUR experience) for US to experience. We know of no there or know if there is a there.
Fanman wrote:It is something or a moment that occurs when the person ceases to exist in their body. I agree that near death is not death, as when a person is near death they're still there, and their body is still functioning (alive), albeit not optimally. But once the process of death is complete, the person (as far as we know) is gone. Therefore, death is inextricably linked to the person not being there any more and the ceasing of the body being alive. By definition, if a person is dead then they no longer experience anything.
There is no definition. We just don't know whether a 'dead' person experiences something other than previous to disappearing. For all I know they could be playing it out again in some parallel universe with no memory of before.
Fanman wrote: Hence, we use the term "after-life" to describe any experiencing which happens post death, and experiencing is a quality of life.
We use "after-life" as an assumption only. Based on hope, I suspect.
Fanman wrote: On the one side we have death and on the other side we have life - the two states are completely different from each other.
We have a word "death". We don't have the experience of 'death'. We only have the experience of a person's disappearing act. We are not aware of sides or two states.
Fanman wrote:The proposition of an after-life, supposes a blend of the two states, whereby one is both dead and alive. Absent from the dead body, yet experiencing life.
Many things will be and have been proposed. Unicorns have been proposed.

I am merely dealing with facts.
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Re: Existence and afterlife probability

Post by Ormond »

Greta wrote: In a sense we all were that fast-growing blob of ultradense superheated plasma a little under 14 billion years ago.
Unlike you losers, I'm still a fast growing blob of ultradense superheated gases.
If the things we want to hear could take us where we want to go, we'd already be there.
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Re: Existence and afterlife probability

Post by Atreyu »

Fanman wrote:There may be a semantics issue, but I think that "death" (as you know) is the term we use to define when the person is not there any more. According to what we currently know, death is not an ongoing experience, because there's no person there to experience it. It is something or a moment that occurs when the person ceases to exist in their body. I agree that near death is not death, as when a person is near death they're still there, and their body is still functioning (alive), albeit not optimally. But once the process of death is complete, the person (as far as we know) is gone. Therefore, death is inextricably linked to the person not being there any more and the ceasing of the body being alive. By definition, if a person is dead then they no longer experience anything. Hence, we use the term "after-life" to describe any experiencing which happens post death, and experiencing is a quality of life. On the one side we have death and on the other side we have life - the two states are completely different from each other. The proposition of an after-life, supposes a blend of the two states, whereby one is both dead and alive. Absent from the dead body, yet experiencing life.
This is not true. For those who believe in 'reincarnation', the 'afterlife' is simply another life. Death is viewed as a transition from one life to another. So one is not 'both dead and alive', and there is no 'other side'.

-- Updated July 13th, 2016, 11:55 am to add the following --
Fanman wrote:There may be a semantics issue, but I think that "death" (as you know) is the term we use to define when the person is not there any more. According to what we currently know, death is not an ongoing experience, because there's no person there to experience it. It is something or a moment that occurs when the person ceases to exist in their body. I agree that near death is not death, as when a person is near death they're still there, and their body is still functioning (alive), albeit not optimally. But once the process of death is complete, the person (as far as we know) is gone. Therefore, death is inextricably linked to the person not being there any more and the ceasing of the body being alive. By definition, if a person is dead then they no longer experience anything. Hence, we use the term "after-life" to describe any experiencing which happens post death, and experiencing is a quality of life. On the one side we have death and on the other side we have life - the two states are completely different from each other. The proposition of an after-life, supposes a blend of the two states, whereby one is both dead and alive. Absent from the dead body, yet experiencing life.
This is not true. For those who believe in 'reincarnation', the 'afterlife' is simply another life. Death is viewed as a transition from one life to another. So one is not 'both dead and alive', and there is no 'other side'.
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Re: Existence and afterlife probability

Post by Rederic »

This is not true. For those who believe in 'reincarnation', the 'afterlife' is simply another life. Death is viewed as a transition from one life to another. So one is not 'both dead and alive', and there is no 'other side'
.

This is just another theory without any reliable evidence at all.
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Re: Existence and afterlife probability

Post by Jklint »

I think it mostly defaults to pure physiology. We have hearts, livers, lungs, brain, etc., as is common to the mammalian group. Functionally our organs aren't any better than that of a dog or cat. The human brain is only an extension which allows for a greater degree of consciousness. In that sense any mention of an afterlife is merely a value added metaphysical endorsement of a purely physical operation. We ponder or imagine an afterlife because we can, consciousness allowing the use of metaphysics to establish an idea which, as usual in such instances, offers no collusion to anything remotely provable or probable.
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Re: Existence and afterlife probability

Post by LuckyR »

Jklint wrote:I think it mostly defaults to pure physiology. We have hearts, livers, lungs, brain, etc., as is common to the mammalian group. Functionally our organs aren't any better than that of a dog or cat. The human brain is only an extension which allows for a greater degree of consciousness. In that sense any mention of an afterlife is merely a value added metaphysical endorsement of a purely physical operation. We ponder or imagine an afterlife because we can, consciousness allowing the use of metaphysics to establish an idea which, as usual in such instances, offers no collusion to anything remotely provable or probable.
True, alas...
"As usual... it depends."
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September 2022

Mary Jane Whiteley Coggeshall, Hicksite Quaker, Iowa/National Suffragette And Her Speeches

Mary Jane Whiteley Coggeshall, Hicksite Quaker, Iowa/National Suffragette And Her Speeches
by John N. (Jake) Ferris
October 2022

In It Together: The Beautiful Struggle Uniting Us All

In It Together: The Beautiful Struggle Uniting Us All
by Eckhart Aurelius Hughes
November 2022

The Smartest Person in the Room: The Root Cause and New Solution for Cybersecurity

The Smartest Person in the Room
by Christian Espinosa
December 2022

2021 Philosophy Books of the Month

The Biblical Clock: The Untold Secrets Linking the Universe and Humanity with God's Plan

The Biblical Clock
by Daniel Friedmann
March 2021

Wilderness Cry: A Scientific and Philosophical Approach to Understanding God and the Universe

Wilderness Cry
by Dr. Hilary L Hunt M.D.
April 2021

Fear Not, Dream Big, & Execute: Tools To Spark Your Dream And Ignite Your Follow-Through

Fear Not, Dream Big, & Execute
by Jeff Meyer
May 2021

Surviving the Business of Healthcare: Knowledge is Power

Surviving the Business of Healthcare
by Barbara Galutia Regis M.S. PA-C
June 2021

Winning the War on Cancer: The Epic Journey Towards a Natural Cure

Winning the War on Cancer
by Sylvie Beljanski
July 2021

Defining Moments of a Free Man from a Black Stream

Defining Moments of a Free Man from a Black Stream
by Dr Frank L Douglas
August 2021

If Life Stinks, Get Your Head Outta Your Buts

If Life Stinks, Get Your Head Outta Your Buts
by Mark L. Wdowiak
September 2021

The Preppers Medical Handbook

The Preppers Medical Handbook
by Dr. William W Forgey M.D.
October 2021

Natural Relief for Anxiety and Stress: A Practical Guide

Natural Relief for Anxiety and Stress
by Dr. Gustavo Kinrys, MD
November 2021

Dream For Peace: An Ambassador Memoir

Dream For Peace
by Dr. Ghoulem Berrah
December 2021