Ulterior Motives for Religion

[Aaron Westover]

Please excuse me if this has been discussed before. I've looked around and couldn't find any related subject.

I've often wondered why religion has become such a common aspect of human culture. I realize it started out as a way of seeking an answer to existence for early humans, but it has certainly turned into something more in present times. Has it turned into a vessel for power to be obtained for the preaching minority? I think most of us can agree religion has been abused to obtain advantages over others. Don't get me wrong. Religion can be pure and beautiful to many, but are these people with pure intentions being used for others to gain power? I'm an ex-mormon, and I'm not sure if what I'm saying is correct, but I feel like I've been taken advantage of. I feel other's have used my prior belief to heighten their own authority.

When someone holds the threat of a god over the heads of innocent believers, what else can they do but to obey? To a non-skeptic, that is infinite finality they're dealing with. It's terrifying to challenge something like that. If that leader wants money, then they force donations on the followers as a "commandment". Fear is abused.

I want to know what you guys think. What do you think religion has turned into? What are some other ulterior motives for religion that I haven't covered. Do you think religion came about from the existence of a god, or from human desires?

Thanks.

[Raspberry_Yoghurt]

Well I think it goes like this

1: Human asking questions
2: Humans not accepting that some questions cannot be answered because we don't know and invent stories
3: Stories are constructed to maximize emotional appeal
4: Stories accepted due to habit, wanting to fit in, a well as intellectual laziness (most people not bothering to think it through)
5: Easy position now to be exploited by people of authoriry within the religion

I'd say 5 is optional and doesn't necessarily happen in all religions. Or maybe it does, but not necessarily on a grand scale. 1-4 are necessary though. Comments

ad 2: I heard many religions people claim "But what is YOUR answer!" as if it was a given thing that everybodybody had a ready answer to say where the universe came from. It seems to me to be just part of human nature, that we just doesn't take no answer for an answer. I always answer "I have no idea! I just know your idea is wrong!" but this doesn't work because they think you MUST have an answer.

ad 3: Also it seemt to me that religious people "think" with their emotions and are unimpressed with logic. Also, they don't have any ACTIVE logic, i.e. they will not by themselves pick out inconsistencies, but must always have them pointed out. For instance that in the Bible, Jesus (= God) preaches forgiveness, whereas God most unforgivenly has burned the people in Sodoma/Gomorrah plus drowned most people in the deluge. Glaring inconsistency, but religious people just doesn't "see" it, because their emotions when they read about the deluge aren't connected to their emotions when they read about Jesus.

ad 4: I think many people that count as religions don't feel so strongly about it, but just take it as "the way it is", without bothering much. If their community suddeny wanted to convert, they'd happily go along because it isn't that important to them.

[Burning ghost]

I have written a rather cumbersome thread about what religion is.

Anyway, as for ulterior motives ... not sure that is the right word. People have motives religion doesn't.

I think it is pretty fair to say that if you looked to for answers you are given the power over people. How you choose to deal with this is not soley a religious problem. I would imagine a bif difference in religious communities is the need to blindly follow the will of god (this goes for followers and leaders). The leaders intent may be very good, but being a mere human will er often enough.

I honestly don't think what you are saying about power is only appropriate to religion.

Overall I would say today, and steadily over time, religion offers the basis for a global "nationhood" above and beyond national affiliations. Various religions over time have offered some great successes and some great failurws.

It will be intestering to think what a future historian will make of this period in our history with the scientific, industrial and communications advancements that we've made. I imagine it will be comparable to the enlightenment period in some respects.

[Raspberry_Yoghurt]

I have written a rather cumbersome thread about what religion is.

Anyway, as for ulterior motives ... not sure that is the right word. People have motives religion doesn't.

I think it is pretty fair to say that if you looked to for answers you are given the power over people. How you choose to deal with this is not soley a religious problem. I would imagine a bif difference in religious communities is the need to blindly follow the will of god (this goes for followers and leaders). The leaders intent may be very good, but being a mere human will er often enough.

I honestly don't think what you are saying about power is only appropriate to religion.

Overall I would say today, and steadily over time, religion offers the basis for a global "nationhood" above and beyond national affiliations. Various religions over time have offered some great successes and some great failurws.

It will be intestering to think what a future historian will make of this period in our history with the scientific, industrial and communications advancements that we've made. I imagine it will be comparable to the enlightenment period in some respects.

I think socially and intellectually we will be regarded as a strange chaotic middle-period, much like the renaissance.

Messy, hard to describe in simple terms, a weird mix of things from the preceding periods and hits of the following, often in the same person. Much like renaissance scientists doing both mathematics and alchemy and thinking it fit together - whereas we see the mathematics as belonging to the good progressive stuff, and the alchemy as belonging to the middle ages.

For science, industry and communication we will be consideres a stage towards the much much more advanced tech they will have.

[Burning ghost]

In relation to philosophy there is a tradition of philosophy moving back and forth from ratonalism and empiricism. I think the current situation is against the more rationalist view.

I do not think religion was made foe a purpose and that is rather came about by certain individuals trying to share certain unique expeirences. Once a common view is established then people began to shape it for purposes in society.

Who knows! Maybe within the next couple of decades we'll be looking back at today as somewhat alien. In my life time the changes I have seen become alway blind to me. Only when I think about it do they become more blindingly prominent.

[Ormond]

I think most of us can agree religion has been abused to obtain advantages over others.

In SOME cases this is certainly true. We should ask whether this is religious behavior, or human behavior. I propose that if we assembled any population as large as a couple billion people we'd find all the varieties of human behavior contained within.

[LuckyR]

Please excuse me if this has been discussed before. I've looked around and couldn't find any related subject.

I've often wondered why religion has become such a common aspect of human culture. I realize it started out as a way of seeking an answer to existence for early humans, but it has certainly turned into something more in present times. Has it turned into a vessel for power to be obtained for the preaching minority? I think most of us can agree religion has been abused to obtain advantages over others. Don't get me wrong. Religion can be pure and beautiful to many, but are these people with pure intentions being used for others to gain power? I'm an ex-mormon, and I'm not sure if what I'm saying is correct, but I feel like I've been taken advantage of. I feel other's have used my prior belief to heighten their own authority.

When someone holds the threat of a god over the heads of innocent believers, what else can they do but to obey? To a non-skeptic, that is infinite finality they're dealing with. It's terrifying to challenge something like that. If that leader wants money, then they force donations on the followers as a "commandment". Fear is abused.

I want to know what you guys think. What do you think religion has turned into? What are some other ulterior motives for religion that I haven't covered. Do you think religion came about from the existence of a god, or from human desires?

Thanks.

Actually theism and philosophy started out for that reason. Later theists grouped up into the religious. I wasn't there at the time but in my mind's eye I can imagine the inventor of religion observing that the highborn were the royalty, the physically strong were the military, the guy is smart yet physically weak and common born, so how is he going to get ahead on pre-historic pre-religious Earth? Boom!! he invents religion and ends up more powerful than the royals and the generals.

[Simplyhuman]

I believe humans have taken advantage of several similar situations, including religion. If ever there is room for fear or punishment; someone, somewhere will use it to their advantage over others.

[Belinda]

Religion is a social expressive medium like music or fiction writing. Like other expressive media religion's genesis is rooted in technological advance which in the case of religion allowed people to gather together and share their feelings in some common space such as grove or a building; groves and buildings require technological advances.

In common with other expressive media religion can be and has been appropriated by individuals who seek social and material power.

The good religion in common with the good music or the good dance is that which is free from political or despotic control. I'd add that the good religion , like the good music and the good novel, has the intelligent courage to explore and innovate.

[LuckyR]

Religion is a social expressive medium like music or fiction writing. Like other expressive media religion's genesis is rooted in technological advance which in the case of religion allowed people to gather together and share their feelings in some common space such as grove or a building; groves and buildings require technological advances.

In common with other expressive media religion can be and has been appropriated by individuals who seek social and material power.

The good religion in common with the good music or the good dance is that which is free from political or despotic control. I'd add that the good religion , like the good music and the good novel, has the intelligent courage to explore and innovate.

All true. However, unlike the analogies you draw, disco aficionados have not perpetrated atrocities on country western enthusiasts.

[Belinda]

LuckyR wrote:

All true. However, unlike the analogies you draw, disco aficionados have not perpetrated atrocities on country western enthusiasts.

Right. Can we examine what it is about religion that makes it vulnerable to those who use it to control others?

[Ormond]

Can we examine what it is about religion that makes it vulnerable to those who use it to control others?

Yes, if we can also examine what it is about atheism that makes it vulnerable to those who have used it to control others.

The problem for religion is that it invokes a higher authority which can, in the wrong hands, be used to lend credibility to some of our worst instincts.

The problem for atheism is that it removes all higher authority which can, in the wrong hands, open the door to an "anything goes" world view which liberates some of our worst instincts.

In both cases it is the infinite scale addressed by the philosophy that empowers some bad actors to justify some of their worst actions.

It tends to be the most ideological in both the theist and atheist camps who can be the most dangerous. This is an important clue. It shows that the oppression we are concerned about arises from a deeper source than the content of any ideology.

The real struggle is not between theism and atheism, but between the reasonable sane people in both camps, and the lunatic fringe in both camps.

[Belinda]

Ormond, I agree that "the lunatic fringe" of people whether they be atheists or theists is who creates the religious difficulties, violence, oppression and so on. Let's compare this with what LuckyR wrote:

However, unlike the analogies you draw, disco aficionados have not perpetrated atrocities on country western enthusiasts.

Disco aficionados are comparable to liberal religionists and liberal atheists. There have been instances of 'dance' in the form of marching men used to stir up violent behaviour. Some strict religions forbid dancing presumably because dancing might become too dionysian that's to say become the opposite of goose -stepping soldiers.

[Ormond]

Belinda, you are so very wrong!! Disco aficionados are dangerous cultural extremists who have perpetrated unspeakable atrocities upon good taste!!

[Felix]

Disco aficionados are dangerous cultural extremists who have perpetrated unspeakable atrocities upon good taste!![quote][/quote]

Unspeakable is alright, unsingable is bad, but undanceable?, now THAT is an atrocity!