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What would a World without Philosophy and Religion be like?

Discuss philosophical questions regarding theism (and atheism), and discuss religion as it relates to philosophy. This includes any philosophical discussions that happen to be about god, gods, or a 'higher power' or the belief of them. This also generally includes philosophical topics about organized or ritualistic mysticism or about organized, common or ritualistic beliefs in the existence of supernatural phenomenon.
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Windying
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What would a World without Philosophy and Religion be like?

Post by Windying » November 8th, 2016, 8:51 pm

Okay, first of all. Hello, everyone. I am quite new to this site. I had just found this site a couple of days ago so I knew next to nothing about it. If I offended anyone, please do let I know so I can correct my errors.

So, here is the thing. I am working on an argumentive essay for my college class. The topic that I had chosen is that Philosophy of life is more important and more impacted in the human world more than the religion of belief. I believe this to still be true even in today society. :D

First of all, this is just my own opinion as someone who has seen far enough hypocrites and too many lies of belief in religious. No, let me rephrase that. I had seen far enough people who don't stick to their belief in both philosophically and religiously. Yet, I had also known enough people who don't care about the philosophy of life and/or religion in general ideas and still live a life of clear consciousness.

So, please tell me what you people out there though of this topic; Which is more important to human society? Which one, Philosophy or Religion, are more impacted toward the human life?

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LuckyR
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Re: What would a World without Philosophy and Religion be li

Post by LuckyR » November 10th, 2016, 2:38 pm

Windying wrote:Okay, first of all. Hello, everyone. I am quite new to this site. I had just found this site a couple of days ago so I knew next to nothing about it. If I offended anyone, please do let I know so I can correct my errors.

So, here is the thing. I am working on an argumentive essay for my college class. The topic that I had chosen is that Philosophy of life is more important and more impacted in the human world more than the religion of belief. I believe this to still be true even in today society. :D

First of all, this is just my own opinion as someone who has seen far enough hypocrites and too many lies of belief in religious. No, let me rephrase that. I had seen far enough people who don't stick to their belief in both philosophically and religiously. Yet, I had also known enough people who don't care about the philosophy of life and/or religion in general ideas and still live a life of clear consciousness.

So, please tell me what you people out there though of this topic; Which is more important to human society? Which one, Philosophy or Religion, are more impacted toward the human life?
As an aside, since you mention you are in a college class, don't use the words "impacted" or heaven forbid "impactful".

Anyway, from a formal perspective there are many, many more proponents of named religions than named philosophical schools. Though we all use the principles of classic philosophy (without thinking about it) since philosophy originates out of thoughts on observations of human interactions.
"As usual... it depends."

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Re: What would a World without Philosophy and Religion be li

Post by Roel » November 14th, 2016, 7:28 pm

Windying wrote:Okay, first of all. Hello, everyone. I am quite new to this site. I had just found this site a couple of days ago so I knew next to nothing about it. If I offended anyone, please do let I know so I can correct my errors.

So, here is the thing. I am working on an argumentive essay for my college class. The topic that I had chosen is that Philosophy of life is more important and more impacted in the human world more than the religion of belief. I believe this to still be true even in today society. :D

First of all, this is just my own opinion as someone who has seen far enough hypocrites and too many lies of belief in religious. No, let me rephrase that. I had seen far enough people who don't stick to their belief in both philosophically and religiously. Yet, I had also known enough people who don't care about the philosophy of life and/or religion in general ideas and still live a life of clear consciousness.

So, please tell me what you people out there though of this topic; Which is more important to human society? Which one, Philosophy or Religion, are more impacted toward the human life?
I think that they are directly related, as they both deal with the abstract non-physical aspects of life, as opposed to physics. Could philosophy exist without religion and vice versa?
"Genuine tragedies in the world are not conflicts between right and wrong. They are conflicts between two rights." - Friedrich Hegel

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Renee
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Re: What would a World without Philosophy and Religion be li

Post by Renee » November 16th, 2016, 8:46 am

Roel wrote: I think that they are directly related, as they both deal with the abstract non-physical aspects of life, as opposed to physics.
I oppose this view, somewhat. Sorry, Roel, I ain't be try pickin' on you, I am just really geared up and can't stop philosophizing now.

I am not sure if non-physical aspects of life are abstract. They can be, but abstract to me means more "removed" than "other-worldly" and does not at all mean "supernatural". In its own sense, "abstract" means "removed" in any arguable way.

But spiritual matters are simple, clear-cut, and pertinent. Mainly, because religions were created and their philosophy built on dogma and by very stupid people, or ignorant people who were not stupid, but their knowledge was very limited. So any spiritual system in its component terms is simplistic, to the point, tangible, evidencing the obviously observed, and easy to understand and absorb.

And their removedness from physical reality is not so clear either. For instance, in the Christian faiths, the concept of god these days is arguably a spiritual, philosophical, amorph something, very removed, very abstract, which can't be grasped for its great size and etc etc etc. But in early Christian beliefs (coming from the Jewish beliefs) god was an actual old man, as depicted in paintings, sitting on a cloud, seeing everything and throwing lightning bolts.

What we read in scriptures are mysticisms that were mystical to the people who wrote the scriptures. But to modern man those mysticisms have largely been removed, their rational explanations have even become trite, everyday knowledge.

Today's mysticism, however, is more sophisticated, of only insofar as it thrives on what we consider mysterious today, which is in the realm of what we consider unknown. More knowledge, yes, overall for mankind, but more sophisticated mysticism, too.
Ignorance is power.

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Roel
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Re: What would a World without Philosophy and Religion be li

Post by Roel » November 16th, 2016, 9:38 am

Renee wrote:
Roel wrote: I think that they are directly related, as they both deal with the abstract non-physical aspects of life, as opposed to physics.
I oppose this view, somewhat. Sorry, Roel, I ain't be try pickin' on you, I am just really geared up and can't stop philosophizing now.

I am not sure if non-physical aspects of life are abstract. They can be, but abstract to me means more "removed" than "other-worldly" and does not at all mean "supernatural". In its own sense, "abstract" means "removed" in any arguable way.

But spiritual matters are simple, clear-cut, and pertinent. Mainly, because religions were created and their philosophy built on dogma and by very stupid people, or ignorant people who were not stupid, but their knowledge was very limited. So any spiritual system in its component terms is simplistic, to the point, tangible, evidencing the obviously observed, and easy to understand and absorb.

And their removedness from physical reality is not so clear either. For instance, in the Christian faiths, the concept of god these days is arguably a spiritual, philosophical, amorph something, very removed, very abstract, which can't be grasped for its great size and etc etc etc. But in early Christian beliefs (coming from the Jewish beliefs) god was an actual old man, as depicted in paintings, sitting on a cloud, seeing everything and throwing lightning bolts.

What we read in scriptures are mysticisms that were mystical to the people who wrote the scriptures. But to modern man those mysticisms have largely been removed, their rational explanations have even become trite, everyday knowledge.

Today's mysticism, however, is more sophisticated, of only insofar as it thrives on what we consider mysterious today, which is in the realm of what we consider unknown. More knowledge, yes, overall for mankind, but more sophisticated mysticism, too.
Hi Renee, what about buddhism? I tried to study it, but it seems very complex to me. I wouldn't say buddhism is simple.

Also, are there any known early depictions of God in the way you say? It isn't allowed to depict God, so how can we be sure he looked like an old man on a cloud sending lightning bolts in the minds of ancient Hebrews? That God sounds more like Thor.
"Genuine tragedies in the world are not conflicts between right and wrong. They are conflicts between two rights." - Friedrich Hegel

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Re: What would a World without Philosophy and Religion be li

Post by Ormond » November 16th, 2016, 10:18 am

Renee wrote:But spiritual matters are simple, clear-cut, and pertinent. Mainly, because religions were created and their philosophy built on dogma and by very stupid people, or ignorant people who were not stupid, but their knowledge was very limited.
First, your statement is simply insulting, which I don't care about myself, but the mods claim to.

Second, your statement is not supported by the evidence. The major religions we see in the world today have been willingly embraced and found useful by billions of people over thousands of years. Such enduring creations are not the work of stupid ignorant people.

If you were to edit your statement to say that a great many people do not find religion useful, or even interesting, I would of course agree and have no argument with that.

A key problem with religions is that they often cling to outdated cultural language which loses it's connection with modern audiences. As example, the story of Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden is brilliant highly insightful commentary on the human condition, including the modern world, but it's parable form of presentation was far better suited to another time and place.

As members of the scientific age many of us understandably try to compare religion with science, and find religion lacking in that comparison. But that's the wrong comparison. Religion is better compared to art. Consider a great play, film or novel. Such works of art can speak compelling deep truths about the human condition and our place in reality, while at the same time being entirely fictional.
If the things we want to hear could take us where we want to go, we'd already be there.

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Re: What would a World without Philosophy and Religion be li

Post by Nick_A » November 16th, 2016, 11:43 pm

Windying wrote:Okay, first of all. Hello, everyone. I am quite new to this site. I had just found this site a couple of days ago so I knew next to nothing about it. If I offended anyone, please do let I know so I can correct my errors.

So, here is the thing. I am working on an argumentive essay for my college class. The topic that I had chosen is that Philosophy of life is more important and more impacted in the human world more than the religion of belief. I believe this to still be true even in today society. :D

First of all, this is just my own opinion as someone who has seen far enough hypocrites and too many lies of belief in religious. No, let me rephrase that. I had seen far enough people who don't stick to their belief in both philosophically and religiously. Yet, I had also known enough people who don't care about the philosophy of life and/or religion in general ideas and still live a life of clear consciousness.

So, please tell me what you people out there though of this topic; Which is more important to human society? Which one, Philosophy or Religion, are more impacted toward the human life?


Man - a being in search of meaning. - Plato



Both the essence of religion and the core of philosophy are essential in order for our species to grow in consciousness and acquire a more human perspective. Religion and philosophy are words insufficient to define their relative quality. Religion can imply either pure fantasy or genuine mystical experiences. Philosophy can either mean arguing opinions or opening to what Plato called anamnesis. IMO both are essential for the person in search of the experience of meaning. I also agree with Prof. Jacob Needleman who wrote in his book “The Heart of Philosophy” a very disturbing idea. Take from it what you will.
Chapter 1

Introduction

Man cannot live without philosophy. This is not a figure of speech but a literal fact that will be demonstrated in this book. There is a yearning in the heart that is nourished only by real philosophy and without this nourishment man dies as surely as if he were deprived of food and air. But this part of the human psyche is not known or honored in our culture. When it does breakthrough to our awareness it is either ignored or treated as something else. It is given wrong names; it is not cared for; it is crushed. And eventually, it may withdraw altogether, never again to appear. When this happens man becomes a thing. No matter what he accomplishes or experiences, no matter what happiness he experiences or what service he performs, he has in fact lost his real possibility. He is dead.
Man would like to be an egoist and cannot. This is the most striking characteristic of his wretchedness and the source of his greatness." Simone Weil....Gravity and Grace

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Re: What would a World without Philosophy and Religion be li

Post by Fooloso4 » November 18th, 2016, 11:38 am

The terms philosophy and religion are so elastic that any discussion of their comparative merits is bound to obscure rather than illuminate unless we begin with a working distinction between them. There are some who think that religion is philosophy and some who treat the work of philosophers as religious dogma.

I distinguish them as follows: philosophy is Socratic skepticism guided by reason, revealed religion is faith based belief. Buddhism and Taoism are generally experiential practices that eschew conceptual constructs. Of course this leaves out a great deal.

As to what is more important to society, I would say religion has been most effective at taming us, allowing us to conform and obey. That, however, is also its weakness. A weakness that modern philosophy/science and the Enlightenment sought to rectify, but at the cost or the threat of nihilism. Nietzsche’s solution, like that of Plato, was a new religion created by the philosopher. Unlike Platonism, however, it is to be a religion of the earth, a religion of becoming. Or, as he cryptically put it: a religion of the god Dionysus, of a god who philosophizes,

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Re: What would a World without Philosophy and Religion be li

Post by Fan of Science » July 1st, 2017, 9:24 pm

There were highly educated people who had no problem with being high-ranking Nazis under Hitler. There were, on the other hand, some poorly educated religious people who did care. It's also true that some smart people opposed him and even fled Germany and other axis nations for places like the USA. And certainly there were others, who were poorly educated religious people who supported him.

I'm not so sure that there is a great deal of empirical evidence available that tells us that philosophy is better than religion or whether the opposite is true, or they are tied. I'm an atheist myself, but have seen many smart, good, religious people, and some dumb, nasty atheists, for that matter. In my experience, it comes down more to the specific individual than a generalization can provide.

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Re: What would a World without Philosophy and Religion be li

Post by Spectrum » July 1st, 2017, 10:09 pm

What would a World without Philosophy and Religion be like?

Without Philosophy, a World would be like Mars or any other no-human planet.
Philosophy is an inherent default of being human - DNA wise.
Therefore as long as there are human beings there will be Philosophy-proper.
Note Philosophy-proper is not academic philosophy.
Rather philosophy is that drive for continuous improvement via knowledge and wisdom towards optimality of the well being of the individual[s] and the collective.

As for religion it depend on the circumstances and state of the average human being.
At present based on the current psychological state of the average [& majority] human being, if religion is eliminated, then there will be no more terrible religious related evils, violence and terrorism. However, the majority without religions will be unstable and create all sort of other evils and violence.

However, in a World where all humans has voluntarily weaned off and replaced religions with fool proof method to deal with the inherent and unavoidable existential crisis, then there will be a great degree of peace than what is happening at present.

Philosophy [an inherent default] is not a choice but humans change their psychological conditions and give up religion.
Not-a-theist. Religion is a critical necessity for humanity now, but not the FUTURE.

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Re: What would a World without Philosophy and Religion be li

Post by Burning ghost » July 2nd, 2017, 5:13 am

Very, very, very dull? To answer the title.

I don't think you can part the two tbh. Philosophy employs a continuing line of questioning and religion does the same too. I would say one is more inclined to dogmatism than the other, but that may be due to my own biases?

Both religious and philosophical thought are important to each other. Nietzsche despised Christianity and Hitler moved away from religion. People don't need religion to commit murder and war, they just need an accuse to do as they please and as they think is right and just.

TO look at this differently the question you posed is a philosophical question not a religious one. Philosophical thought, in my mind, is more about questioning accepted answers, where religion is more about questioning based on accepted answers. They are both necessarily to some degree and both bad if ignorant of the other. Certainly one is more rational than the other for day-to-day life. The bigger questions of our personal and communal lives are more up in the air.
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Re: What would a World without Philosophy and Religion be li

Post by Philosch » July 2nd, 2017, 3:59 pm

Your question might be better asked like this..."what would a world without consciousness be like" simply because religion and philosophy are both derivatives of self awareness. A world without self awareness would be just like what earth looked like approximately 150,000 years ago or maybe longer depending on who's research you want to believe.

-- Updated July 2nd, 2017, 4:00 pm to add the following --

and yes I intentionally were interchanging the terms consciousness and self-awareness although I suppose there are some who would argue a subtle distinction between those terms. For the purposes of my post they are the same thing.

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Re: What would a World without Philosophy and Religion be li

Post by Fooloso4 » July 2nd, 2017, 4:24 pm

[This was posted in the wrong topic and has been deleted here.]

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