Philosophy Discussion Forums | A Humans-Only Philosophy Club

[Whitedragon]

So many debates gravitate around the degrading of the Lord. In our attempts to disprove him or discredit him, we find some satisfaction. These questions and accusations bring us to a new question, what has he actually done wrong?

When we look at an imperfect world and all the pain and sorrow that goes along with it; we often say then he cannot exist. Looking at the story of Adam and Eve, we find why our world is broken. If we go from that story, we find that things were perfect, but that we were not satisfied enough with it. Somehow, we managed to not only doom that perfection, but also put continuity in it. In a world that is doomed, should it not be strange when something goes right, rather when something goes wrong?

Mainly, the Bible tells us how to live our lives right. It is concerned with our safety and protection and seemingly, that is what the crux of the book is. Despite this good intention, (of a book that is looking out for us), we are so unsatisfied with the Lord and the book, that we find it necessary to degrade and attack both. Why do we reward good intentions with anger and disbelief?

Reading the Word correctly is what is important. History is not instruction, but rather like drama, which we can choose not to adopt in our lives; yet people see everything in it as instruction, rather than life lessons to learn. They take the worse things out of context, rather choosing to focus on the story and so losing the message.

So the question in this thread is, what has the Lord actually done wrong, since his main goal was always to keep us safe. He is practical in all things, there does not seem to be anything abstract when it comes to sin, but we can always rather find some logical explanation why any sin is “wrong.” “Sin” and “wrong,” seem to be outdated words, which need reforming in order to demonstrate its practical value. So again, what has the Lord actually done wrong?

[Renee]

So the question in this thread is, what has the Lord actually done wrong, since his main goal was always to keep us safe.

The Deluge? Not very safe for all humankind except for one family. That's mistake no. 1. Not in chronological order, but in importance. A huge ethnic cleansing. Kill everyone, except one family.

Seriously speaking, Whitedragon, you are asking a completely illogical question. A thing that does not exist can't do anything wrong and can't do anything right.

You are coming from an angle that a god exists. Many people, and they are increasing in both numbers and in percentage of the population in North America, believe that a god does not exist. They can't all be wrong.

If you ask your question of the religious, well, they will tell you this, and they will tell you that.

I am not religious, and believe there is no god. To me your question is illy brought up.

One thing is for sure: Your initial proposition, that the bible has been written to protect us is actually false. Really false. The deluge wiped out almost all of mankind, according to the believers. That does not sound like protection to me... at all. Many in mankind will be condemned to burn in hell for ever and ever... in hellish nightmares, in absolute anguish. That is not love or protection at all, which you say god is dishing out -- that's sadism and joy over the watching of others suffer. Sadism, cruelty, and unforgivingness.

This is the main thrust of the Christian god. Little wonder people are waking up to the real nature of this monster and leaving him behind.

As you speak of him, in complete (befuddling) honesty, he is the best creature ever. Full of goodness. Infinitely good. The bible quotes him, as he says in first person singular, "I am a mean and jealous God." Can you spot the difference, Whitedragon? Mean and jealous is his self-confessed true nature, and yet you delude yourself he is infinitely good. What sort of a self-hypnotic skewing of the real picture do you imagine to yourself, in order to worship an idol that is willing to toss you into eternal fire, at his own whimsy, yet you pay incredibly large amounts of respect and worship to him?

Are you afraid of him?

You have nothing to lose, except your own fear, if you finally listen to your true inner self, read the REAL words in the bible, and toss this god out of your life forever. He does not deserve you, he does not deserve even one human being's adoration. He is a mean, jealous, and protectionist, sadist; he is unforgiving, demanding, a control freak, and certainly not a good god. Not good at all, by any stretch of standard or means.

This god you believe in, Whitedragon, does not want to protect us. You make me laugh, Whitedragon, with your funny imagination of creating a false picture of this horrible being in our mind by using your sheer mind-power, rationalizing your cognitive dissonance, and fear.

[Whitedragon]

So the question in this thread is, what has the Lord actually done wrong, since his main goal was always to keep us safe.

The Deluge? Not very safe for all humankind except for one family. That's mistake no. 1. Not in chronological order, but in importance. A huge ethnic cleansing. Kill everyone, except one family.

Seriously speaking, Whitedragon, you are asking a completely illogical question. A thing that does not exist can't do anything wrong and can't do anything right.

You are coming from an angle that a god exists. Many people, and they are increasing in both numbers and in percentage of the population in North America, believe that a god does not exist. They can't all be wrong.

If you ask your question of the religious, well, they will tell you this, and they will tell you that.

I am not religious, and believe there is no god. To me your question is illy brought up.

One thing is for sure: Your initial proposition, that the bible has been written to protect us is actually false. Really false. The deluge wiped out almost all of mankind, according to the believers. That does not sound like protection to me... at all. Many in mankind will be condemned to burn in hell for ever and ever... in hellish nightmares, in absolute anguish. That is not love or protection at all, which you say god is dishing out -- that's sadism and joy over the watching of others suffer. Sadism, cruelty, and unforgivingness.

This is the main thrust of the Christian god. Little wonder people are waking up to the real nature of this monster and leaving him behind.

As you speak of him, in complete (befuddling) honesty, he is the best creature ever. Full of goodness. Infinitely good. The bible quotes him, as he says in first person singular, "I am a mean and jealous God." Can you spot the difference, Whitedragon? Mean and jealous is his self-confessed true nature, and yet you delude yourself he is infinitely good. What sort of a self-hypnotic skewing of the real picture do you imagine to yourself, in order to worship an idol that is willing to toss you into eternal fire, at his own whimsy, yet you pay incredibly large amounts of respect and worship to him?

Are you afraid of him?

You have nothing to lose, except your own fear, if you finally listen to your true inner self, read the REAL words in the bible, and toss this god out of your life forever. He does not deserve you, he does not deserve even one human being's adoration. He is a mean, jealous, and protectionist, sadist; he is unforgiving, demanding, a control freak, and certainly not a good god. Not good at all, by any stretch of standard or means.

This god you believe in, Whitedragon, does not want to protect us. You make me laugh, Whitedragon, with your funny imagination of creating a false picture of this horrible being in our mind by using your sheer mind-power, rationalizing your cognitive dissonance, and fear.

2. Hi Renee, we as human beings put some people in jail for life for the crimes they commit. It is a little confusing that you would propose that someone of cosmic justice should overlook our transgressions, when the only thing they really need to do is be social in their self-preservation. It is actually quite simple; he gave us a virtual free ticket out of, “the flames,” as you call them, by merely having to believe in him and try to be a “good” person.

Noah’s flood story was the epitome of protection, since, (if you go by the Word), the world was full of creatures that were wiping out humankind, aka nephilim. What are you actually saying, should the Lord just stand aside and allow the world to escape justice, whereas when we punish criminals, it is okay? What happens to people who never answer for their crimes here on earth? You seem to want to exclude justice in the character of the Lord, while it is okay in humans.

Since you do not believe in him, the stories might not be real, but the life lessons they teach can be of use. So why are you making a fuss about the flood, if you do not believe it happened? Moreover, thinking back on your quote of, ‘he is mean,’ it does not seem that is the actual quote. We well known he thinks of the church as “his bride.” How would you feel if your wife/husband cheated?

You cannot dedicate yourself to a man or woman in marriage and play with her emotions, since that is what your quote is all about in actuality. No one of us appreciates this in real life. Since he only wishes to improve our lives, it still seems you have no foot to stand on. Of course, there will be consequences if we break any kind of law, no matter whose laws it is.

You speak and ask of fear, are you afraid of the law? Why do many people avoid robbing banks, or raping women, it is the fear of the law; but if we keep the law we have nothing to be afraid of. If our focus is right, we stop thinking of breaking it. Again, that is where social preservation comes in. Personally, any fear of any law is a good thing, since it would not protect us otherwise.

[Gertie]

Hi Whitedragon

Can I start with requesting a sort of Public Service Announcement?

Please define your 'God', so as respondents don't go off on tangents irrelevant to the god you're talking about.

Sounds like it's based on the god of the Christian Old and New Testaments - if you're a Bible literalist that's well known enough to serve as a definition, if not it needs more clarification. Thanks.

[Whitedragon]

Hi, Gertie, many religions upset people, but what is referred to here is the one of the Biblical old and new testament.

[Andrian]

So the question in this thread is, what has the Lord actually done wrong, since his main goal was always to keep us safe.

If God's goal has always been to keep us safe, then He is doing a REALLY lousy job of it (if He even exists at all).

Let me illustrate this with a hypothetical example. Let's say that some wicked person has kidnapped an 8-year-old little girl, intending to torture and rape her. He takes her into a room where there is a very strong, well-trained martial artist, who is not restrained or incapacitated in any way, and then proceeds to do these horrible things to the girl while the martial artist stands by and watches. Is the martial artist doing something wrong by standing by and watching the girl get tortured and raped? The martial artist could easily overpower the wicked person and set the little girl free, but does not do so. I would argue that in such a case, the martial artist is in fact doing something wrong by not intervening to save the little girl. The martial artist is an accomplice in the wicked person's crimes, because the martial artist has the ability to very easily prevent her suffering, and does not do so.

Now let's consider the fact that in the real world little girls are kidnapped, tortured, and raped on a regular basis. If your God is real, and can see everything that happens and is the most powerful being in existence, then He must be standing by and watching every time a little girl is tortured and raped. He is clearly not intervening. God (if He exists) is an accomplice in literally every crime ever committed. God is responsible for every murder, every theft, every rape, and every fraud ever committed throughout the entirety of human history. He knew they were going to happen, He had the power to stop them from happening, and He did nothing. That's what He's actually done wrong.

[Fooloso4]

Whitedragon:

... many religions upset people, but what is referred to here is the one of the Biblical old and new testament.

There are many gods referred to in the Bible, which is not a book but a collection of books. What books are included in that collection varies, and what one finds in one book may contradict what one finds in another. When people talk about God they are not talking about something that has objective independent existence that we are able to know and thereby make claims about that can be objectively determined to be true or false.

Mainly, the Bible tells us how to live our lives right.

According to which book? Even orthodox Jews do not live according to the draconian laws of Deuteronomy. In the Sermon on the Mount Jesus says the written Law must be strictly adhered to, but Paul says it was never meant for gentiles and they are under no obligation. Of course both believed the world and its inhabitants were about to undergo a radical transformation that did not happen and thus presents a problem for how we are to live our lives right.

Reading the Word correctly is what is important.

But already you have erred. The Logos is a Greek concept that is foreign to the Hebrew Bible and calling it the “Old Testament” is to see it in a way that its authors never intended and in a way that Jews reject.

History is not instruction …

Only for those who do not know it and do not understand its lessons.

[Gertie]

You're right there, and you've got a particularly hard furrow to plough defending this one imo.

It's kind of a personal question the way you've put it, in a way more interesting than the usual debatey approach, so I'll give kind of a personal answer.

The first major problem of course is why believe these particular stories supposedly based on revelations to a small bunch of folks who lived a long time ago with a very different world view, when those types of stories made sense of the world for them then, but don't really now?

I don't think you can get past that first hurdle, except via Faith and personal interpretations of your own experiences, which others have no reason to take on board.

Doesn't generally make me angry tho, I take the 'by their fruits ye shall know them' approach - if it causes harm it's a problem, if it's forced onto others through law, social mores or indoctrinating children it's a problem. It might even incur my righteous wrath! But if it helps people cope with life's hardships, gives them meaning and purpose, encourages them to be kindly to others, it's a good thing. (And if you post about it on an internet discussion board, you're likely to get annoyance and frustration ).


Then even if you accept the Faith route for your own reasons, is this a god worth worshipping except out of fear or childish subservience?

That doesn't sit easy with me, the idea of loving and worshipping something just because it's bigger and smarter and more powerful. Worshipping generally doesn't sit easy with me to be honest. Love and worship, worshipful love, has to tick my right psychological boxes, then it just happens. The Biblical god is an odd mix of attractive and unattractive qualities for me on that score. When I was a Christian I had to rationalise and cherry pick to make my faith acceptable to myself, and eventually this almost sub-conscious strategy failed because of what I've come to find out is called The Problem of Evil. Or the problem of Suffering as I'd prefer to call it.

My Faith couldn't be sustained in the sort of God I wanted to exist in the face of the suffering in the world (and more particularly my own life), even after I rationalised away the most icky and illogical bits of the Bible. I was sort of angry about that, angry that I'd lost the nice bits, angry that my god (which I'd part borrowed, part invented) had let me down by not being good enough, coherent enough, to be worthy of the trust of my faith.

I suppose you could say for me that's what my god did wrong. Reflecting back now, I think I was looking for a positive framework for my jumbly world views and sadnesses, and being brought up in a Christian society the particular version of Christianity I latched onto felt like a natural fit. It ticked enough of the right boxes, and the rest I re-moulded or ignored. It worked well for me for a while, eventually I found it was easier to come to terms with the disappointments, uncertainties and jumbliness of life than keep trying to sustain what no longer rang good or true.

-- Updated December 11th, 2016, 6:26 pm to add the following --

PS that reply was to Whitedragon

[Whitedragon]

3. Fooloso4, do we have independent existence or character? Why can we differ, but the Lord cannot act according to circumstances? Talking about which book, of course the Jews have different approaches to their beliefs than Christians. One would think that instead of talking about sacrifices and the laws presented in Leviticus, we would rather focus on a universal idea of “good and bad” in this thread. Sacrifice has been around since before the writing of the Torah, the prophets and the writings. It was an important practice, almost worldwide. To depart from its importance at that time would have caused confusion, for one example.

Old and new testament is a manner of speaking for Christians. Jews who do not accept Christ as the Messiah, according to Christian teaching are lost. Christians who do not take heed of the scriptures forerunning the New Testament will not understand the origins of the Son.

Fooloso4 said: “Only for those who do not know it and do not understand its lessons.” Precisely

Gertie, Why do the stories not make sense? We watch even stranger stories today, like the Matrix, Star Trek, and Allice in wonderland. We still like watching old movies, which occurred long ago. Sherlock Holmes, the 300, or fictional stories like the Lord of the rings. Some other fiction we watch is the Immortals, of Greek gods, the clash of the titans. Should we not rather be asking, why do biblical stories not resonate with us; is it because they are boring, or is it because of pre-bias? Do we not sometimes wish we lived in our Hollywood stories today, is there not people who long to live as vampires or as Robin Hood in Sherwood Forest? Perhaps the reason those stories do not resonate with us, is because the message is too hard to bear, yet when something strokes and sooths us, we fall in love, because it has no real message.

We do not worship the Lord, because he is more intelligent or powerful, but because we love him and for the sacrifices he has made. Do you love your boyfriend/husband, because he is smarter and stronger than you are, or for some other reason? No sane person loves anybody, a friend, a mate, a king, without that love having its roots in something other than grandeur.

You bring up suffering again, yet the Adam and Eve story should explain it. Let me ask you this; if the whole world was perfect, no pain, no sin, but there was this one little island of evil people, what would happen? Say one day we meet them; we would not be able to deal with their ways and sly nature. They would gradually spread among us and ruin our perfect world. Now think on a larger scale, what if the whole world was perfect, but some other world were not. In general, you cannot have one thing, without its opposite existing. If we were free from calamity and bad people, we would only know one side of the spectrum and be vulnerable.

The Lord loves us and in him, there are no lies. What would your perfect world be like then, a world full of people where knives do not even exist, save someone cut his finger while in the kitchen? Maybe there are no knives in a perfect world, and Spock drops one on an away mission in Canada and evil enters the world.

Lastly, in a perfect world, there is no gravity, save someone falls off a cliff. So, does wanting a perfect world not bring us to some sort of paradox? To have it, we need to be immortal, or eliminate every kind of danger; and honestly, who can imagine a universe like that? It seems to me wanting a world where there is no pain is tantamount to asking for the very thing atheists do not believe in, immortality, hence a paradox.

[Fooloso4]

Whitedragon:

Why can we differ, but the Lord cannot act according to circumstances?

Moses’ god says that he is a jealous god and according to his commandments his people shall have no other gods before him. The gods of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob each having different names meaning different things. Moses' god tells him to tell the people not to worry about names, that he or "I am" is the god of their fathers. In any case, he is a god who does not impregnate women. Your god impregnates a virgin and has a son who is himself a god. Is this god the same or a different god? We find both answers within Christianity and a lot of theological juggling. It is not simply a matter of the Lord acting according to circumstances. It is, rather, a clash of concepts all of which are based on the belief that this concept alone is not a concept something real. Although there are some who say that it a concept but a concept about something that is not a concept, a god who is real. And then there are those who say that there can be no true concept of god, that we cannot even say that god exists.

Jews who do not accept Christ as the Messiah, according to Christian teaching are lost.

One might just as well say that according to Jewish teachings Christians are lost. You assume that your beliefs are true and theirs are false but you have nothing but your beliefs to back that up. There is good reason to think that Jesus would have been shocked and outraged if he knew that he had been deified by pagan gentiles.

Christians who do not take heed of the scriptures forerunning the New Testament will not understand the origins of the Son.

The “Son” is a result of a pagan interpretation of the Hebrew notions of a son of God and of a messiah.

[Felix]

Whitedragon, I would say that it boils down to mortality. If we each have only one mortal life, and that's it, than it's obvious what God (whatever one's conception of Him) has "done wrong." If, however, our mortal existence is just one link in an eternal chain of being, than God has a potential alibi for His temporal misdeeds.

[Burning ghost]

If you do not believe in god or the bible as anything other than a book then no point in replying to OP.

If you want answers to the OP probably better off posting on a forim dedicated to theology?

That is my advice.

[Whitedragon]

Fooloso4, the thread is about whether the Lord offended us, revealing himself in different ways is not an offence.

There were many occasions where the Son referred to himself as a deity.

You might also try reading this verse, Proverbs 30:4.


Yes, Felix, that sounds about right. As said, he cannot remove what is natural in a universe of opposites, without creating a paradox. Is mortality a misdeed by him, or rather an honest portrayal of nature, at least in a finite universe? Can we imagine a perfect universe where all are free from harm? Perhaps this is why the Lord would not have us eat from the tree of life after being confused by the tree of knowledge of good and evil, because then we would be immortal in a broken world.

-- Updated December 12th, 2016, 4:47 am to add the following --

Hi, burning Ghost, why not join the discussion in anyway?

[Burning ghost]

Whitedragon-

Because all I see you asking is "what have I done wrong?"

That is for you to answer and those around you. In which case all I can say is you're shifting responsibility onto your "Lord".

If there is some "higher being" then ... we are like ants asking why humans watch TV even though we humans probably cannot answer such a question precisely enough (many contexts in which the question can be taken). Also I doubt very much an ant can even form such a thought living in a completely different wordl from us and most probably not very well accustomed to social media and human life in general.

That is all I can really say. I cannot discuss something that seems wholly an imaginative and purely spectulative operation. Yiu can discuss such a thing based on th premise of a "Lord"/"Creator", a premise which I do not hold in my mind, but one which may exist as much the series Westworld exists for ants and ant society (altough I arrogantly propose that I have more comprehension of something "greater" than an ant would, beign a naive and bias human being).

I don't see anything particularly philosophical in your OP. It is, in my eyes, a theological premise I simply don't share and only relevant to a Christian theist. If you think otherwise pleae explain how I am meant to discuss this topic having, what I assume to be, a wholly different approach to the concept of "God". No one is my "Lord" accept myself ( and I admittedly err so I at least have this advantage ... I can be "wrong").

Essentially "wrong" is a relative term. What relativity is there in an all encompassing being? We simply only know of our own sense of "encompassing" our World. We are in an "aboutness" neither "in" nor "out" and in this respect I believe we speculate an "otherness" of supreme being so as not to face our own "otherness cast out" (so to speak) "in/out-to" a thing we are and a thing we call The World.

Does that help us open a discourse? If not have fun.

[Whitedragon]

Hi, Burning Ghost

How is it we can have a philosophical conversation about our dissatisfaction about the Lord, but when one asks to define those issues it is not philosophical?