Why are people scared to discuss Islam

Discuss philosophical questions regarding theism (and atheism), and discuss religion as it relates to philosophy. This includes any philosophical discussions that happen to be about god, gods, or a 'higher power' or the belief of them. This also generally includes philosophical topics about organized or ritualistic mysticism or about organized, common or ritualistic beliefs in the existence of supernatural phenomenon.
Steve3007
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Re: Why are people scared to discuss Islam

Post by Steve3007 »

I don't know if this helps the argument at all, but I would say that in the case of football (soccer) hooliganism it's about tribalism, the human need (among some humans - mostly young males) to fight alongside one's brothers in arms against a common enemy and the fact that we live in a relatively peaceful society so there are no genuine common enemies conveniently available.

The question would then be: Why does football in particular seem to encourage this kind of tribal-bonding violence? I've heard that it is much less prevalent among rugby fans, for example. Some have speculated that this is because in Rugby the violence happens on the pitch, so doesn't need to happen off it.

What about other countries? In the US, is there more violence associated with the fans of any particular sport? How about Australia? Aussie rules football is apparently fantastically violent? Is there a big problem with fan-violence there?

Would answering any of these questions inform the discussion about religious tribal violence?
Eduk
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Re: Why are people scared to discuss Islam

Post by Eduk »

I think Spectrum makes a worthy point about those Koranic verses . If the Koran is to be interpreted literally and not historically then those verses in the Koran will inspire some people to do what they are told is the direct word of Allah. I personally don't know what interpretations are taught by which imams , and I am sorry that Islamic authorities such as they are are not communicating with infidels very well.
This is the key point. I'm sure you won't struggle to find abhorrent violent verses in the Bible but these are not generally highlighted by the Christian church authorities today (except in small minorities).

-- Updated April 3rd, 2017, 7:16 am to add the following --
The question would then be: Why does football in particular seem to encourage this kind of tribal-bonding violence? I've heard that it is much less prevalent among rugby fans, for example. Some have speculated that this is because in Rugby the violence happens on the pitch, so doesn't need to happen off it.
You are making the assumption that football does encourage this. If football magically vanished then hooligans would not. They existed before football and they will exist after football. There are reasons football is attractive to hooligans for sure but this is not the fault of football per say. For example football is the most popular sport is very likely a key factor in the attractiveness of football.
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Steve3007
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Re: Why are people scared to discuss Islam

Post by Steve3007 »

I'm sure you won't struggle to find abhorrent violent verses in the Bible but these are not generally highlighted by the Christian church authorities today (except in small minorities).
As far as I recall, when this has been discussed previously it has been pointed out that the abhorrent violent stuff with the smiting and the beating your wife with a stick no wider than your thumb and all that malarkey is in the Old Testament and the New Testament was supposed to be a new covenant and that is the one that is specific to Christianity. But I may have got that wrong because my knowledge on the subject is limited.

-- Updated Mon Apr 03, 2017 12:55 pm to add the following --
You are making the assumption that football does encourage this.
I wasn't sure. Was just wondering whether football does indeed attract more hooliganism than, say, rugby. If so there might be something interesting there. If not, then as you've said I guess it's just anything to which one can attach one's tribal identity. In some cases of course a religious tribal identify alines with a football one. e.g. Rangers versus Celtic.
Eduk
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Re: Why are people scared to discuss Islam

Post by Eduk »

all that malarkey is in the Old Testament and the New Testament was supposed to be a new covenant
But that's my point, people cherry pick whatever they want to believe. The word of God is the word of God until that's no longer convenient then you can just change the word of God.
Was just wondering whether football does indeed attract more hooliganism than, say, rugby.
There certainly is a lot more violence around football than rugby. It's certainly an interesting topic but as regards the actual rules of the game itself then I would say there is a correlation between the offside rule and violence and no causation :)
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Steve3007
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Re: Why are people scared to discuss Islam

Post by Steve3007 »

But that's my point, people cherry pick whatever they want to believe. The word of God is the word of God until that's no longer convenient then you can just change the word of God.
Yes people do. But in the case of New Testament versus Old Testament I think the Christians would argue that they're only cherry picking in the sense that they're picking their own religion over a different one. Not so much picking an individual cherry as picking an entirely different cherry tree. But I'll leave it there because it would need a Christian to argue this properly.

Christians?
Eduk
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Re: Why are people scared to discuss Islam

Post by Eduk »

Some Christians believe in literal interpretation of the old testament. Some don't. There are many many denominations with different ideas and interpretations of the Bible. They all agree and disagree on various different points. If you are so inclined you can look at the Bible and say it is justification for anything, likewise someone else can point at the same bible and say it isn't. You can then argue amongst yourselves as to who is a 'real' Christian (which is exactly what Muslims do).

As far as I am aware this is true of all religions (or at least ones over a certain size). If Christians can update their books and practice a more moderate form then so too can Muslims. Come back in 10,000 years and we will revisit this conversation :)
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Steve3007
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Re: Why are people scared to discuss Islam

Post by Steve3007 »

Come back in 10,000 years and we will revisit this conversation :)
It's a date! Sometimes feels like I've been here almost that long anyway. :)

One more thing in defence of Christianity versus Islam though: I take all the points you've made, but in the final analysis can't Christians claim that their religion is fundamentally more peaceful than Islam because of the nature of their respective prophets?

My admittedly horribly superficial knowledge of these things leads me to the general impression that the core of Jesus's message was loving your enemy, forgoing the desire for vengeance when you've been wronged and all that kind of thing. Revolutionary ideas that take a lot of strength to put into practice. Whereas Muhammad was more of a warrior leader kind of a guy wasn't he? I wouldn't hold that against him. No doubt just a product of his circumstances. But still, on the face of it, an altogether more confrontational kind of prophet?
Eduk
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Re: Why are people scared to discuss Islam

Post by Eduk »

Well some people think Jesus is going to come back and kill everyone (more or less). So I wouldn't say he was all that peaceful necessarily. Again I think it's just a matter of interpretation. People are people in my experience.
I do get your point and it's clearly true that some groups of people are living more peaceful lives than other groups of people. I just think the influence of religion X, Y or Z is not particularly in their respective writings but in their evolved culture of religious leaders and socio-economic position. In short it's horribly complex with no single clear obvious cause to blame. Plus lots of circularity where cause circles back into cause.
If I was a Christian I wouldn't look at Muslims murdering each other for blasphemy and think Christianity is clearly the more peaceful religion. I would think to myself exactly what is stopping me from doing the same?

-- Updated April 3rd, 2017, 10:46 am to add the following --
the core of Jesus's message was loving your enemy, forgoing the desire for vengeance when you've been wronged and all that kind of thing.
Oh by the way it's very debatable if this is ethical behaviour or not. For my money it isn't but I could understand the logic for a case to be made that it was. I can't help but be practical though as these are morals that ensure their own demise (not that this is proof they aren't moral).
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Steve3007
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Re: Why are people scared to discuss Islam

Post by Steve3007 »

Eduk:
Well some people think Jesus is going to come back and kill everyone (more or less). So I wouldn't say he was all that peaceful necessarily. Again I think it's just a matter of interpretation. People are people in my experience.
Fair point. I guess one man's "save all the believers" is another man's "kill all the unbelievers". Glass half full or empty. But if you forget about what people say Jesus is going to do, and forget all the stuff about him being the son of god and just concentrate on what the man himself might actually have really done, maybe he wasn't too bad. Delusions about being the son of God but with some interesting ideas.
I just think the influence of religion X, Y or Z is not particularly in their respective writings but in their evolved culture of religious leaders and socio-economic position...
I essentially agree with the paragraph from which this is taken. There are, as you said, all kinds of complex social, economic, political and cultural factors which feed into the reasons why people in any given part of the world happen to be killing each other right now. Pick a different part of the world at a different time (Europe during the 30 years war, for example) and it's the same tribal, power and resource-war driven stuff with different tribal names. (e.g. Protestant versus Catholic instead of Sunni versus Shia.)
Oh by the way it's very debatable if this is ethical behaviour or not. For my money it isn't but I could understand the logic for a case to be made that it was. I can't help but be practical though as these are morals that ensure their own demise (not that this is proof they aren't moral).
This is the part that I most disagree with. The revolutionary idea that we should resist the temptation to take vengeance seems a pretty good one, both morally and as a survival technique. I'm hard pressed to think of many catastrophic, vastly wasteful and ultimately pointless conflicts that were not driven by a sense of vengeance. I sometimes think to myself what I would do if somebody murdered my children. I know how difficult it would be to resist the desire to reply to hideous atrocity with even more hideous atrocity and how important it is that I am not allowed to do so.

A recent case springs to mind: One of the victims of the Westminster Bridge incident was an american guy from a Mormon family. His family were on the news declaring that they had no ill-will towards the killer. If this is really true then I am impressed by it, regardless of anything else I might think about their church.
Eduk
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Re: Why are people scared to discuss Islam

Post by Eduk »

It's all down to the nuance and specifics. I'm not saying that vengeance in whatever form is wholly good but it isn't wholly bad either. It's about maximising your protection for yourself and your family. Sometimes that is by turning the other cheek, sometimes it's not.
Sometimes you should avoid conflict, other times that avoidance causes the conflict to be many times worse. Life is not so simple that you can summarize all correct actions in a sentence or two.
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Togo1
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Re: Why are people scared to discuss Islam

Post by Togo1 »

I don't think people are scared to discuss Islam. On the contrarty, it seems to be discussed far more than any other religion.
Spectrum
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Re: Why are people scared to discuss Islam

Post by Spectrum »

Eduk wrote:Obvious to anyone who reads sentences which can be understood in many different ways and takes their own interpretation as factual. I assume you also believe in horoscopes?
First, I claim I am VERY familiar with the 6,236 verses of the Quran. You have not made such a claim, thus any thing you assert on matters relating the Quran [core of Islam] is not credible.

Your 'reads sentences' is very narrow that lacks critical philosophical thinking.

The Quran claimed [in many verses] within itself, the message of god is very easy to understand!
  • 3:103…. ...Thus Allah maketh clear [BYN: bayyannā] His revelations unto you, that haply ye [Muslims] may be guided,


Despite Allah's claim, realistically, within the Quran, the sentences [verses] from Allah [all powerful] god to the Muslims can be categorized as;

1. Clear and specific - no room for doubts
2. Ambiguous sentences - can go either way
3. Very contentious sentences.

My assertions [backed by evidences] is there are lots of clear and specific sentences as ordained by Allah that do inspire SOME evil prone Muslims to commit evils and violence. As for the moderates, they simply ignore such commands from Allah. E.g.
  • 2:216. Warfare [QTL: l-qitālu] is ordained [KTB: kutiba: prescribed] for you [Muslims], though it is hateful unto you [Muslims]; but it may happen that ye [Muslims] hate a thing which is good for you, and it may happen that ye love a thing which is bad for you. Allah knoweth, ye know not.
The above is merely one such statement and there are many statements that are specific in exhorting Muslims to fight and commit evils against non-Muslims.

As for the ambiguous sentences, those evil prone will read it as they interpret it as their duty as good Muslims which in reality to us turned out to be evil and full of violence.
The moderates will find various explanation to interpret the ambiguous statements in their preferred ways and avoid evils and violence.

In regard to the very controversial statements, each group will insist they are right and act accordingly.

There is no doubt [upon thorough reading] the above types of sentences [verses] exists within the Quran.

All Muslims are supposed to obey the commands of Allah within the Quran if they are to be saved from eternal Hell and given passage to Paradise.

The point is we will not find all [100%] of Muslim obeying 100% of Allah commands in the Quran.

But the fact that appx. 20% [conservatively] obey 20% of the specific commands with evil laden elements is a serious threat to humanity. The reality is the evident evils and violence that is manifesting from SOME Muslims in the world. Note these evil and violence are not confined to terrorism but the whole range of other aspects evils and violence.

This is the reason why Islam [Quran as the core] [in part] is inherently and malignantly evil and violent.

Your thinking that
'because Islam is a religion, and
the main intent of any religion is peaceful,
therefore Islam is peaceful and
it is the Muslim's fault if they interpret wrongly'.

Your thinking is very bad because you are asserting without a full understanding of the Quran, i.e. the core of Islam.

Rightly we should not seriously blame any Muslims at all for the evils 'committed' by them.
Those appx 20% of Muslims who commit evils and violence as inspired by the Quranic verses are merely unfortunate because they were born with an active eil tendencies.
It is the evil ideology [part] of Islam within the Quran that trigger their active evil tendencies.
Therefore the proximate cause of evil and violence by SOME Muslims is from specific evil laden verses [of no doubts] from the Quran.
For evil and violence committed by SOME Muslims, the main focus must be on the Quran and not the SOME Muslims.

Obviously we have to give attention to those 'SOME' Muslims and they must be held accountable for their actions. Humanity must find solutions to deal with it on a general basis to deal with appx 20% of ALL humans who are born with an active evil tendency. This will be separate subject of psychology and psychiatry [perhaps genomics].

At present what we have are the cowed coward ignorant* Muslims apologists, certain left wing liberals and Muslims themselves who are doing all they can to deflect attention from the proximate causes of Islamic-based evils and violence.
*ignorant of the Quran and real Islam.

By their hinderings and deflections, they are complicit to the evil and violence that are committed by those evil prone Muslims at present and in the future.

-- Updated Tue Apr 04, 2017 1:22 am to add the following --
Eduk wrote:This is the key point. I'm sure you won't struggle to find abhorrent violent verses in the Bible but these are not generally highlighted by the Christian church authorities today (except in small minorities).
Again you seem to be ignorant of the depth of the Bible and the Quran.

It is a fact, there are more evil laden elements in the Bible [especially the OT] than the Quran.
The difference for Christians is the NT put a cap of a pacifist maxim [love your enemies, give the other cheeks, etc.] to override all the evils and violent verses in the Bible as far as living on present Earth is concern.
That on Judgment Day Jesus will destroy 'those who destroy the Earth' do not concern daily living on Earth at present.

On the other hand, Allah in the Quran exhort believers to fight and commit 'evils'* against non-Muslims while on living on Earth. * from Allah perpective it is good [HSN; ihsan] and Muslims will be highly rewarded for such deeds.
In other cases Allah issue commands to fight only on a defensive basis, but the conditions for such defensive acts are very vague. E.g. drawings of cartoon of Muhammad is a threat to Islam, so Muslims are obliged as a duty to defend Islam, thus fight and kill non-Muslims and this his a reality!

Another point is no true Muslims would dare to invent their own extreme interpretation against Allah words [else they will end in Hell]. Thus the many [thousands] true Muslims who commit evils and violence against non-Muslims are doing their best and sincerely to obey Allah's command. Thus the fault [one] is due to Islam [in part] for including evil laden verses in the holy text [Quran].

As of Jews, they rely on the OT which contain loads of evil laden elements. Many evil prone Jews are inspire these evil laden verses in the OT to commit evils and violence against non-Jews. As such the Jews [some] and Torah [part] should be condemned in a similar vein like we do for Islam [part]. This is not the topic of the OP.

-- Updated Tue Apr 04, 2017 1:34 am to add the following --
Togo1 wrote:I don't think people are scared to discuss Islam. On the contrary, it seems to be discussed far more than any other religion.
I believe this 'discuss' refer to critiques of Islam. Relatively, if you compare the situation from 10 years ago to present, there is a significant change and reduction due to many Nations being serious and introducing blasphemy laws and restraints. Note the recent M103 from Canada! of all the places. Even Facebook, Twitter are restraining discussion of Islam. Meanwhile the evils and violence from the Muslim community is increasing all over the world but those who to criticize the root cause [i.e. Islam] are heavily suppressed with mortal threats, laws, peer-pressure, etc.
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Eduk
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Re: Why are people scared to discuss Islam

Post by Eduk »

I don't think people are scared to discuss Islam. On the contrarty, it seems to be discussed far more than any other religion.
Discussion in general, as you say, is pretty widespread, I wouldn't say it was certainly discussed more than any other religion, but let's say it's discussed quite a bit.
But I think the OP is specifically talking about constructive criticism. For example comics of the prophet Muhammad aren't printed in mainstream press.
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Belindi
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Re: Why are people scared to discuss Islam

Post by Belindi »

Eduk wrote:
If Christians can update their books and practice a more moderate form then so too can Muslims. Come back in 10,000 years and we will revisit this conversation :)
There is a problem about how Jesus Christ is based upon an actual man and not a book of rules. JC was a faithful Jew who respected the OT prophets. JC was also a life lived and died . The Koran, unlike JC who may be interpreted and updated as a moving icon , the Koran is literal, quite deliberately , and Muhammad its receiver is supposed to be the final prophet.

The Koran can be interpreted with understanding of Muhammad as a man of his place and time. I cannot understand the Muslims' huge adulation of Muhammad which seems indistinguishable from idolatry.
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Re: Why are people scared to discuss Islam

Post by Spectrum »

Belindi wrote:There is a problem about how Jesus Christ is based upon an actual man and not a book of rules. JC was a faithful Jew who respected the OT prophets. JC was also a life lived and died . The Koran, unlike JC who may be interpreted and updated as a moving icon , the Koran is literal, quite deliberately , and Muhammad its receiver is supposed to be the final prophet.

The Koran can be interpreted with understanding of Muhammad as a man of his place and time. I cannot understand the Muslims' huge adulation of Muhammad which seems indistinguishable from idolatry.
I believe you missed out something very critical here.

It is obvious whatever is in the Quran is related to Muhammad [or some mythical person] of the then place and time [610-632 AD].

Ever since humans were self-conscious they have been facing a TERRIBLE and HORRIFIC existential crisis and will DESPERATELY cling to anything that will give them a sight of possible salvation and eternal life. The most effective is some savior and mercy from an all powerful god. So most humans will be onto something divine or desperately be looking for some thing divine to save their soul from eternal damnation.

As you will notice, the majority will by default turn to religions, cults, sects, magic, shamans, gurus, or anything they think will give them salvation, a peace of mind and security over that terrible existential crisis.

The critical point is whether the soteriological ideologies or religions they turned to contain good and/or evil elements.
They reality is some of the soteriological ideologies and religions do contain evil laden elements.

The fact is most of the main Eastern religions do not [e.g. Buddhism, Jainism,] contain or has very minimal evil laden elements [some Hindu sects]. Thus there is no opportunities for any Buddhists to be inspired by their holy texts to commit evils an violence.

In contrast the Abrahamic religions contain loads of evil laden elements that inspire SOME of their believers to commit evil and violence under the threat of 'obey' their God or go to Hell. The worst of the Abrahamic religions is Islam which has direct verses that exhort, influence and 'catalyze' SOME Muslims with an active evil tendency to commit real evil and violence in the belief they are doing their duty and pleasing Allah to gain extra merits to go to Paradise.

So your "excuse" [or deflection] that the Quran is only relevant to then 610 - 632 AD and many Muslims idolize Muhammad is not effective at all.

The reality is the Muslim community [like others are existentially desperate by default] is clinging on the Quran as literally [complete and perfect] from a God [Allah] and that all of Allah's commands must be obeyed so that they can gain merit to enter into Paradise. Any doubts directed at their god will destroy their hope to eternal life and Paradise.
This is the reason why SOME Muslims will even kill [as sanction by Allah in the Quran] their children, parents, kins and any one they 'perceived' as a threat to their religion, i.e. Islam and hindering their passage to salvation.

Because,
1. appx 20% of humans, thus Muslims naturally are born with an active evil tendency and 2. that the Quran contain loads of evil laden elements,
the combination of the above 2 factors is a sure recipe for real evils and violence and this is glaringly proven by empirical evidence.

To prevent the evil and violence from SOME Muslims, the 'possible' rational solutions are;
1. Cure the 20% of humans [genome wise] of their active evil tendency - this is actually not tenable at the present till another 500 years,
2. Get rid of ALL the evil laden elements in the Quran. This is impossible because the Quran is supposed to be immutable as commanded by Allah.

So the final solution is either
1. to suppress the evil laden elements in the Quran somehow or
2. wean off Islam and replace with foolproof alternatives from humanity within the next 100 years or so.

Running away, deflecting or be an ostrich to the real root cause of Islamic-based evils and violence is cowardice [intellect, moral and human].

-- Updated Tue Apr 04, 2017 11:08 pm to add the following --
Steve3007 wrote: Would answering any of these questions inform the discussion about religious tribal violence?
The tribalistic factor inherent in humans is critical to understanding why Islam [in part] is so evil and violence.

Tribalism [us versus them] is a very critical impulse that has facilitated the evolution of humans since the concept of tribes began eons ago. This useful impulse is embedded in the deepest part of the human brain and is being inhibited as humanity progressed over the ages.

Whilst the tribalistic impulse is being progressively inhibited with globalizations and humanity's maturity, there are still a weak % of individuals who are susceptible to the tribalistic impulse when trigger by certain stimuli as in football games, other sorts of competitions, other nurturing factors, etc.

Now what had happened with Islam is, in the Quran this tribalistic impulse is exploited to the hilt based on the "us versus them" primal drive as sanction from Allah.

In the Quran the concept of "Us-Muslim-Good versus Them-Infidels-evil" is prevalent in more than 55% of the 6,236 verses of the Quran. Just imagine more than 1 in 2 of all the Quranic verses highlight and single out the non-Muslims, infidels or kafir for some contemptuous condemnations and are dehumanized as apes, swines, cattle, ass, etc.

The vulnerables are thus brainwashed with such primal impulse to hate the infidels. With the evil and violent commands from all powerful god who hold their life in His hand, these 'SOME' Muslims will have no hesitation to kill non-Muslim at the slightest provocation.
Not-a-theist. Religion is a critical necessity for humanity now, but not the FUTURE.
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