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One Wish, One Prayer

Discuss philosophical questions regarding theism (and atheism), and discuss religion as it relates to philosophy. This includes any philosophical discussions that happen to be about god, gods, or a 'higher power' or the belief of them. This also generally includes philosophical topics about organized or ritualistic mysticism or about organized, common or ritualistic beliefs in the existence of supernatural phenomenon.
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Re: One Wish, One Prayer

Post by -1- » June 22nd, 2017, 6:51 pm

Eaglerising wrote: We can only fix that which we created.

God didn’t create the violence, sorrow, and despair that is in the world today. Man created it.
Therefore, man is responsible for correcting it. And you begin correcting it by fixing yourself – being the change you want to see in the world.

Hold on. Man needs fixing? by himself? But I did not create myself. You did not create yourself. All men and women and children are ultimately god's creations, according to the bible.

So why do we need to fix ourselves? By YOUR reasoning, only god can do it, because god created man.

Your quagmire seems to have depths of an unimaginable number of fathoms.


We are responsible for your thoughts and actions, not God or some other entity.
I don't think this is anywhere near being in the poem that you wrote,
Plus, if something is wrong in our actions and thoughts, only God can fix it, since he is the creator of us, according to the faiths.
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Re: One Wish, One Prayer

Post by Eaglerising » June 22nd, 2017, 7:49 pm

-1-
I don't think this is anywhere near being in the poem that you wrote,
Plus, if something is wrong in our actions and thoughts, only God can fix it, since he is the creator of us, according to the faiths.
Yes, you didn't create your physical body. But you are responsible for what you consume. This is why you are what you eat. You are what you consume in regards to information, gossip, concepts, etc. You are responsible for your actions. It is even the law of the land.
God doesn't make you steal, fight, argue, or go to war. Man does this. Likewise, whether you realize it or not you create your own suffering.

The poem was written to point that out. It's not my fault or responsibility if you are unable to see that.

-- Updated June 22nd, 2017, 7:58 pm to add the following --

Maybe the following poem which was written in 1985 will help you see that humans create their own problems.

THE DAILY NEWS
Peace Talks to Resume, the headlines shouted;
nuclear testing to continue,
another space launch scheduled for next month
and there was another bombing in Beirut.

What are we doing? Have we gone mad?
We probe in space, we test our strength,
and then pray for peace with gun in hand.
We cry aloud what can we do,
then scurry off to ridicule.

Brotherhood? World Peace?
Have you looked at this poor land,
for we are ripping it apart with our
wars and our hands.
We talk of peace, we talk of love,
but the hungry still are dying.
Algeria, Iraq, Iran,
Israel, Afghanistan,
South Africa, El Salvador,
Nicaragua, Northern Ireland . . .
The list goes on and on!

For love of country we bomb and maim,
in the name of God still more are slain.
The massacres continue,
mass murders of our brothers!
How much more blood must this blood-soaked earth
digest before we bring this madness to an end?

Peace must start in the heart of man
and his mind and spirit must be at peace.
It is love of each and every man,
no matter what his color, we will shake his hand,
kiss his child and know him as our brother.

We are ripping up the heart of earth,
this madness now must cease!
How long before there's Brotherhood?
How long before World Peace?

We will have our Ethiopias, our Northern Irelands and Irans
till we see we all are one, the same,
we hunger, thirst and die.
These lessons hard, still must be learned.
The lesson plan is relentless.
This school of our extracts a toll
till love commands each man!

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Re: One Wish, One Prayer

Post by -1- » June 22nd, 2017, 11:20 pm

Eaglerising wrote:
Yes, you didn't create your physical body. But you are responsible for what you consume. This is why you are what you eat. You are what you consume in regards to information, gossip, concepts, etc. You are responsible for your actions. It is even the law of the land.
God doesn't make you steal, fight, argue, or go to war. Man does this. Likewise, whether you realize it or not you create your own suffering.
You say I'm responsible for what I eat, what I consume, what I do. You say god does not make me steal, fight, argue, or go to war.

Well. If I had a choice in what I eat, I could eat rocks, silver, and silk. But I don't have a choice in what I eat. I eat carbohydrates, fat, and proteins. That is NOT my choice. Someone (according to you) made me that way that I would eat these, and not gold, diamonds and arsenic.

The same things could be said of your other "choices", or "bad" choices that man makes. And you declare that they are man's faults.

Well. If they are man's faults, then they are man's faults because it is inherent in man to do those things. And it is inherent in man to do those things because he had been created that way. He did not "choose" to be bad when he is bad; it's the circumstances that make him act bad; and the bad behaviour is IN him, as it is inherent in him.

And guess why it is inherent in him? because god created him that way. Man is only created one way; only god created man. According to you and your bible.

If man is to repent truly, and to cast away his bad habits, actions, choices, food choices, then it is up to god to change him, as you can only fix something that you created. Man is not able to change himself.

Yet in your poem you state that it's god who appeals to man to change himself, BECAUSE GOD CAN'T CHANGE HIM. So god in your poem is not omnipotent, which means he is not the christian god.

I really don't know why you are fighting this. You wrote schwartz auf weiss, (that means, black on white, that is, plain and simple) that god appeals to man to change his ways, because god can't. God therefore is not omnipotent, and yet it ought to be god to change man, because he has created man, and only the creator of something can fix that something.

I really don't know how you can angle out of this. Saying that man is responsible for his "bad" behaviour, is not a valid argument, as man can only behave the way he had been created to behave. If something is not in man, he can't act it out. Only god created man, and no other creator had any input into man's character or functionality. All functionality of man is made up of functions that are possible because god created him to be able to perform the functions man is capable of doing.

I did not read your other poem. First you need to clean up this mess, before you can deflect the onus of needing to clean it up, by introducing more and more poetry.
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Re: One Wish, One Prayer

Post by Eaglerising » June 24th, 2017, 4:34 am

-1-
I really don't know how you can angle out of this. Saying that man is responsible for his "bad" behaviour, is not a valid argument, as man can only behave the way he had been created to behave. If something is not in man, he can't act it out. Only god created man, and no other creator had any input into man's character or functionality. All functionality of man is made up of functions that are possible because god created him to be able to perform the functions man is capable of doing.
The law of the land in the US and other countries recognizes that man is responsible for his thoughts and actions. It man's unwillingness to accept the reality he is responsible for self that prevents him from seeing this. If man isn't responsible for this actions he can do whatever he wants and not be concerned about the consequences. He can kill his neighbor and not have to go to jail. He can rob the bank and not got to jail. Is this what you are saying? Do you see how illogical your argument is?

_1-
I did not read your other poem. First you need to clean up this mess, before you can deflect the onus of needing to clean it up, by introducing more and more poetry.
I provide the added poem in hopes it would allow you to see man is responsible for his own sorrow and suffering. The poem also points out man has made things worse since when this poem was written. The only thing that changed was the intensity and magnitude of the violence, hate, and ignorance.

-- Updated June 24th, 2017, 11:16 pm to add the following --

-1- and woodart –
The only savior man has is himself. Man’s inability or unwillingness to accept complete and total responsibility for himself causes him to believe in a savior outside himself. Being completely and totally responsible for himself is unacceptable to him because he wouldn’t have an excuse or alibi. He wouldn’t be able to blame something or someone for his thoughts and actions. It is easier and more comforting to believe in a savior outside himself, regardless of what it is called.

Likewise, he doesn’t realize the only one who can change or resolve his problems he created, is himself. Furthermore, his uniqueness prevents anyone from saving him, because he is the only one who has the solution to the problems he created. Denial of his responsibility perpetuates the illusion of an external savor.

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Re: One Wish, One Prayer

Post by Atreyu » June 25th, 2017, 5:02 pm

Eaglerising wrote: The only savior man has is himself. Man’s inability or unwillingness to accept complete and total responsibility for himself causes him to believe in a savior outside himself. Being completely and totally responsible for himself is unacceptable to him because he wouldn’t have an excuse or alibi. He wouldn’t be able to blame something or someone for his thoughts and actions. It is easier and more comforting to believe in a savior outside himself, regardless of what it is called.

Likewise, he doesn’t realize the only one who can change or resolve his problems he created, is himself. Furthermore, his uniqueness prevents anyone from saving him, because he is the only one who has the solution to the problems he created. Denial of his responsibility perpetuates the illusion of an external savor.
This is not quite correct, but your point is indeed a valid one.

The truth is that man is not responsible for his current condition. However, he is responsible for fixing it. He isn't responsible for being what he is, or living in the world that he does, but nobody else is going to save him from his situation. He has to take responsibility and do it himself, using all the tools and knowledge at his disposal. And if his current tools and knowledge is inadequate for the task, it is he himself who must search for what is necessary...

'Seek, and ye shall find...'

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Re: One Wish, One Prayer

Post by Eaglerising » June 26th, 2017, 10:45 am

Atreyu wrote:
The truth is that man is not responsible for his current condition. However, he is responsible for fixing it. He isn't responsible for being what he is, or living in the world that he does, but nobody else is going to save him from his situation. He has to take responsibility and do it himself, using all the tools and knowledge at his disposal. And if his current tools and knowledge is inadequate for the task, it is he himself who must earch for what is necessary..
I have no idea why you would mention anything prior to his birth, or where he is born. The poem applies to an individual's life.

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Re: One Wish, One Prayer

Post by -1- » June 26th, 2017, 8:33 pm

Eaglerising wrote:
The law of the land in the US and other countries recognizes that man is responsible for his thoughts and actions.
This is true. But law and religion are different, and law and philosophy are different. If you want to pull in legal arguments, then migrate those thoughts to "Philosophy of Politics". Methinks.

If man isn't responsible for this actions he can do whatever he wants and not be concerned about the consequences. He can kill his neighbor and not have to go to jail. He can rob the bank and not got to jail. Is this what you are saying? Do you see how illogical your argument is?
I actually did not say this at all. You are gasping at straws. At Strawmen, more accurately.

-1- and woodart –
The only savior man has is himself. This is not true if you believe that the bible is true. Flies absolutely in the face of the teachings of the scriptures.


Now please tell me Eaglerising: the following has been written from a secular, atheist point of view, in which case I agree with you 50%; or from a religious, Christian point of view, because in that latter case I do oppose your opinion. Man’s inability or unwillingness to accept complete and total responsibility for himself causes him to believe in a savior outside himself. Being completely and totally responsible for himself is unacceptable to him because he wouldn’t have an excuse or alibi. He wouldn’t be able to blame something or someone for his thoughts and actions. It is easier and more comforting to believe in a savior outside himself, regardless of what it is called.

Likewise, he doesn’t realize the only one who can change or resolve his problems he created, is himself. Furthermore, his uniqueness prevents anyone from saving him, because he is the only one who has the solution to the problems he created. Denial of his responsibility perpetuates the illusion of an external savor.

-- Updated 2017 June 26th, 8:38 pm to add the following --
Eaglerising wrote: I have no idea why you would mention anything prior to his birth, or where he is born. The poem applies to an individual's life.
Because 99.99 percent of a man's life has been precreated for him by social and political forces, and by historical events and changes.

Also, please be careful with the lingo. You use "man" and "a man" interchangeably. That is not very well. "Man" means humanity, which includes men, women, and children; and "a man" means an individual male human. I wish you'll take care of distinguishing between the two in usage and in context.
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Re: One Wish, One Prayer

Post by Eaglerising » June 26th, 2017, 9:29 pm

Men and women are either responsible for themselves or they are not. If they are responsible for themselves, then they are their own savior.

-1- and woodart –
The only savior man has is himself. This is not true if you believe that the bible is true. Flies absolutely in the face of the teachings of the scriptures.
The Bible was written by men and I disagree with the findings of any religion which suggests that someone is going to save man from himself or his actions.

-1-
Because 99.99 percent of a man's life has been precreated for him by social and political forces, and by historical events and changes.
I agree that man is influenced by history, social, and politics. Men and women the ability to free themselves from that influence. History has provided numerous examples of men and women who have.

-1-
Also, please be careful with the lingo. You use "man" and "a man" interchangeably. That is not very well. "Man" means humanity, which includes men, women, and children; and "a man" means an individual male human. I wish you'll take care of distinguishing between the two in usage and in context.
I understand the difference between man and a man. Excuse my ignorance for switching from one to the other in my examples.

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Re: One Wish, One Prayer

Post by Ranvier » July 26th, 2017, 11:27 pm

My understanding of Christian interpretation of God's intention was to create a human in His own image. It's not that God can't "fix" but cannot fix humanity without taking away free will. We should all be thankful for that or otherwise we would all be nothing more than robots, something that reductionist dogma insist on proving in denying existence of consciousness and free will as mere illusion.

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