What do we lose when we believe?

Discuss philosophical questions regarding theism (and atheism), and discuss religion as it relates to philosophy. This includes any philosophical discussions that happen to be about god, gods, or a 'higher power' or the belief of them. This also generally includes philosophical topics about organized or ritualistic mysticism or about organized, common or ritualistic beliefs in the existence of supernatural phenomenon.
Post Reply
Chili
Posts: 392
Joined: September 29th, 2017, 4:59 pm

Re: What do we lose when we believe?

Post by Chili »

Whitedragon wrote:if you received divine proof that God exists, alas you could confirm it for yourself too, would you accept it?
Isn't it hubris to conclude that this has indeed occurred - that an experience "comes from God" ?

All kinds of drugs (or lately magnetic neuro-stimulation) can induce a "religious experience".

In sci-fi, there are many reasonably-constructed stories where alien beings induce these to impress or control humans.
User avatar
Whitedragon
Posts: 1100
Joined: November 14th, 2012, 12:12 pm

Re: What do we lose when we believe?

Post by Whitedragon »

How much time do you take to think about spirituality? In the past, people spent decades, centuries, and millennia to ponder these things - a personal experience is all good and well, but what can we hope to achieve if we're at work all day or busy with other things? In comparison to the ancient people we can't hold a candle; we can't hope to just willy nilly find something that works for us.

We don't have to like the story, but we can get a feel of what it represents and what it's trying to communicate and realize what God wants. God is not such a bad communicator. If you go out in nature, what do you hear? If you reflect on your life, what do you hear? What do your darkest deeds say and how do they make you feel? Do you think you can solve it by yourself?

God is merciful and good, but there must also be justice. We scream for justice when our fellow human beings hurt us: we scream the rapist must go to jail, the child molester must go to jail; the thief must go to jail ... the murderer. We plea for mercy, it's not foreign to us to want to be released and forgiven. Parents sacrifice for their children, they take a bullet for them; is it so foreign that if God did something for us, which is so far beyond our understanding, that the authors would compare it to a parent sacrificing his child - what greater sacrifice is there? What more painful sacrifice is there? And be it true or not, and just a comparison, shouldn't we take it seriously and investigate what it means, instead of rejecting it out of hand?

Don't believe in the story - believe in the message.
What God gave, was like sacrificing a child ... even deeper.

-- Updated October 24th, 2017, 11:20 am to add the following --

Last post addressed to Alieas
We are a frozen spirit; our thoughts a cloud of droplets; different oceans and ages brood inside – where spirit sublimates. To some our words, an acid rain, to some it is too pure, to some infectious, to some a cure.
Alias
Posts: 3119
Joined: November 26th, 2011, 8:10 pm
Favorite Philosopher: Terry Pratchett

Re: What do we lose when we believe?

Post by Alias »

Error! Error!! Error!!!
because of indifference.
I misread that as "difference", to correspond with your previous assertion that I dispute the story because of its strangeness.
More recently, you attributed my resistance to not looking stupid.
In-difference is a new one. It means I don't care about the story.
It's not strange; I'm not worried about looking stupid (It's not for me to say how others see me.) and if I had been either ignorant of or indifferent to the story, I would not have learned or thought this much about it. In fact, I have quite strong opinions on the matter:
Intellectually, I find it all fascinating.
Emotionally, I'm very sad that the human race, with all its potential, has squandered so much of its resources on internecine squabbling over superstitions.
User avatar
Whitedragon
Posts: 1100
Joined: November 14th, 2012, 12:12 pm

Re: What do we lose when we believe?

Post by Whitedragon »

Chili wrote:
Whitedragon wrote:if you received divine proof that God exists, alas you could confirm it for yourself too, would you accept it?
Isn't it hubris to conclude that this has indeed occurred - that an experience "comes from God" ?

All kinds of drugs (or lately magnetic neuro-stimulation) can induce a "religious experience".

In sci-fi, there are many reasonably-constructed stories where alien beings induce these to impress or control humans.
What good aliens they are if they tell us to love one another, to be charitable, to live good lives, for our sake mostly. What good aliens they are if they want us to live better. And what great drugs too. Do aliens and drugs have the best in mind for us? Do our ethics come from them? And as Alias say, why doesn't God reveal himself - why wouldn't aliens reveal themselves and communicate better? Then aliens and God, according to some here are just as bad communicators.
We are a frozen spirit; our thoughts a cloud of droplets; different oceans and ages brood inside – where spirit sublimates. To some our words, an acid rain, to some it is too pure, to some infectious, to some a cure.
Alias
Posts: 3119
Joined: November 26th, 2011, 8:10 pm
Favorite Philosopher: Terry Pratchett

Re: What do we lose when we believe?

Post by Alias »

We've more than adequately covered the ground all around that mulberry bush.
Sacrifice is a concept I understand - and reject.
Moreover, the sacrifices in the bible stories are all made by people to appease their god, not the other way around. It's the god who made the impossible rules, who devised the excessive punishments, who invented the idea of sin. That's not justice; that's whim, prejudice, tantrums and cruelty.
Revenge is a concept I understand - and reject.
In answer to your question
How much time do you take to think about spirituality?
Keep in mind that an efficient, high-powered factory gets more work done in a set period of time than a haphazard, poorly supplied one, so the product can't be accurately rated in hours alone: you have to include horsepower, organization of labour and quality control in your equation of output.
My answer as of this moment: sufficient to my requirements.
User avatar
Whitedragon
Posts: 1100
Joined: November 14th, 2012, 12:12 pm

Re: What do we lose when we believe?

Post by Whitedragon »

Alias wrote:Error! Error!! Error!!!
because of indifference.
I misread that as "difference", to correspond with your previous assertion that I dispute the story because of its strangeness.
More recently, you attributed my resistance to not looking stupid.
In-difference is a new one. It means I don't care about the story.
It's not strange; I'm not worried about looking stupid (It's not for me to say how others see me.) and if I had been either ignorant of or indifferent to the story, I would not have learned or thought this much about it. In fact, I have quite strong opinions on the matter:
Intellectually, I find it all fascinating.
Emotionally, I'm very sad that the human race, with all its potential, has squandered so much of its resources on internecine squabbling over superstitions.
I will agree that the wars were ... unfortunate. But if there is an evolutionary element to ideas, as I've suggested earlier, then it stands to reason that they would be in conflict with each other. This can either be constructive or destructive, depending on how you look at it. It can as much bolster the development of different nations and also encourage diversity, which helps along creativity and original ideas. I know what you're going to say, religion set people back - it also made them unique.

Furthermore, it would seem that if ideas do devolve along with the rest of the universe and its intelligent life, that there would be competition wherever those ideas manifest. It also would not be unfair to say that some of those ideas are good and some are bad. We can see which is which by studying them closely. And again, I know what you're going to say, you don't like the religion or its story, ("but you do find them fascinating"). You'll probably also have a lot to say about the things that you don't like about the religion, but let's not forget that we have to contend with the fact that we're reading it from a historical perspective.

I often wonder what it would be like if God chose to reveal himself in the 21st century. Would he be able to communicate with the world better? How would we perceive him? Perhaps he would end up in a mental hospital instead of a crucifix. Sometimes I think God can just not win. :idea:
We are a frozen spirit; our thoughts a cloud of droplets; different oceans and ages brood inside – where spirit sublimates. To some our words, an acid rain, to some it is too pure, to some infectious, to some a cure.
Chili
Posts: 392
Joined: September 29th, 2017, 4:59 pm

Re: What do we lose when we believe?

Post by Chili »

Whitedragon wrote:What good aliens they are if they tell us to love one another, to be charitable, to live good lives, for our sake mostly. What good aliens they are if they want us to live better. And what great drugs too. Do aliens and drugs have the best in mind for us? Do our ethics come from them? And as Alias say, why doesn't God reveal himself - why wouldn't aliens reveal themselves and communicate better? Then aliens and God, according to some here are just as bad communicators.
The best "aliens" of all are human scientists. Outcomes are generally better over history where people rely less and less on religion and instead find remedies in medicine and social organization for what ails them. Ethics come from evolution and are refined through public debate.

As for aliens revealing themselves - there is considerable research to suggest that this would cause a panic - particular among those who are the most wedded to their religious beliefs and traditions.
User avatar
Whitedragon
Posts: 1100
Joined: November 14th, 2012, 12:12 pm

Re: What do we lose when we believe?

Post by Whitedragon »

Alias wrote:We've more than adequately covered the ground all around that mulberry bush.
Sacrifice is a concept I understand - and reject.
Moreover, the sacrifices in the bible stories are all made by people to appease their god, not the other way around. It's the god who made the impossible rules, who devised the excessive punishments, who invented the idea of sin. That's not justice; that's whim, prejudice, tantrums and cruelty.
Revenge is a concept I understand - and reject.
In answer to your question
How much time do you take to think about spirituality?
Keep in mind that an efficient, high-powered factory gets more work done in a set period of time than a haphazard, poorly supplied one, so the product can't be accurately rated in hours alone: you have to include horsepower, organization of labour and quality control in your equation of output.
My answer as of this moment: sufficient to my requirements.
How do you know what you require. We often end up in a physician's consolation room, only to find out that we lack some supplement, often as a subsequent diagnosis to something else. Doctor: "I see, looks like you have laryngitis, oh and btw you lack vitamin B12." See my point? How do you know what you require as a lay, the religious were doing this as a profession.

-- Updated October 24th, 2017, 12:06 pm to add the following --
Alias wrote:We've more than adequately covered the ground all around that mulberry bush.
Sacrifice is a concept I understand - and reject.
Moreover, the sacrifices in the bible stories are all made by people to appease their god, not the other way around. It's the god who made the impossible rules, who devised the excessive punishments, who invented the idea of sin. That's not justice; that's whim, prejudice, tantrums and cruelty.
Revenge is a concept I understand - and reject.
In answer to your question
How much time do you take to think about spirituality?
Keep in mind that an efficient, high-powered factory gets more work done in a set period of time than a haphazard, poorly supplied one, so the product can't be accurately rated in hours alone: you have to include horsepower, organization of labour and quality control in your equation of output.
My answer as of this moment: sufficient to my requirements.
How do you know what you require. We often end up in a physician's consolation room, only to find out that we lack some supplement, often as a subsequent diagnosis to something else. Doctor: "I see, looks like you have laryngitis, oh and btw you lack vitamin B12." See my point? How do you know what you require as a lay, the religious were doing this as a profession.

-- Updated October 24th, 2017, 12:10 pm to add the following --
Chili wrote:
Whitedragon wrote:What good aliens they are if they tell us to love one another, to be charitable, to live good lives, for our sake mostly. What good aliens they are if they want us to live better. And what great drugs too. Do aliens and drugs have the best in mind for us? Do our ethics come from them? And as Alias say, why doesn't God reveal himself - why wouldn't aliens reveal themselves and communicate better? Then aliens and God, according to some here are just as bad communicators.
The best "aliens" of all are human scientists. Outcomes are generally better over history where people rely less and less on religion and instead find remedies in medicine and social organization for what ails them. Ethics come from evolution and are refined through public debate.

As for aliens revealing themselves - there is considerable research to suggest that this would cause a panic - particular among those who are the most wedded to their religious beliefs and traditions.
I don't see why, God created the universe, not just planet Earth.
We are a frozen spirit; our thoughts a cloud of droplets; different oceans and ages brood inside – where spirit sublimates. To some our words, an acid rain, to some it is too pure, to some infectious, to some a cure.
Alias
Posts: 3119
Joined: November 26th, 2011, 8:10 pm
Favorite Philosopher: Terry Pratchett

Re: What do we lose when we believe?

Post by Alias »

Sometimes I think God can just not win.
Now there is one triumphant exit line for an omniscient, omnipotent, omnipresent, omnibenevolent deity!

-- Updated October 24th, 2017, 12:33 pm to add the following --

play.google.com/store/books/details/Jam ... X4AwAAQBAJ
Those who can induce you to believe absurdities can induce you to commit atrocities. - Voltaire
Fanman
Posts: 3258
Joined: December 14th, 2011, 9:42 am

Re: What do we lose when we believe?

Post by Fanman »

Hi Whitedragon:

Just a little caveat; you're arguing with atheists. I respect their position, but you should (I'm not saying that you don't) know that they do not believe that people have a spiritual aspect, at least not the type of aspect purported by religion such as a "soul". Therefore, to an atheist religion is unnecessary, and maybe even in some cases an unnecessary evil, because it hinders (or has hindered) the progression of humanity by the oppression of other schools of thought and academic practices. Which if they do think that, I think they do so with valid reason. As an agnostic my "claim" is that I don't know, and based upon our current knowledge I don't think that we can be sure about the God question. I think that ideas about the actual nature of such a being as God is purported to be are effectively wishful thinking, as we couldn't really relate to such a being in a meaningful way, never mind understand how it and why it operates as it does.

In my lifetime, I've had some "spiritual" experiences that keep my mind open to the possibility of life having a spiritual aspect, but I also accept that life may be as mechanical as empirical the evidence suggests. I was a theist for a long time, so I understand your position, but even as a philosophical theist, you're never going to win a logical argument with an atheist, and the simple reason you won't or get them to seriously consider that what you're saying is valid, is a lack of evidence. As you know, in the secular world there's no grounding without an evidential basis. Experiential evidence and witness reports in the God debate are anecdotal, whereas hard facts denote truth. Since there are no hard facts about God, there's no valid reason for an atheist to believe that God exists. Which I think is reasonable. All that said, it is interesting to read the colourful views of a philosophical theist. You certainly (as many theists do) have heart.

Note: I don't mean to patronise you, if it comes across that way I apologise. These are just my thoughts from reading your debate :) .
Theists believe, agnostics ponder and atheists analyse. A little bit of each should get us the right answer.
User avatar
Whitedragon
Posts: 1100
Joined: November 14th, 2012, 12:12 pm

Re: What do we lose when we believe?

Post by Whitedragon »

Fanman wrote:Hi Whitedragon:

Just a little caveat; you're arguing with atheists. I respect their position, but you should (I'm not saying that you don't) know that they do not believe that people have a spiritual aspect, at least not the type of aspect purported by religion such as a "soul". Therefore, to an atheist religion is unnecessary, and maybe even in some cases an unnecessary evil, because it hinders (or has hindered) the progression of humanity by the oppression of other schools of thought and academic practices. Which if they do think that, I think they do so with valid reason. As an agnostic my "claim" is that I don't know, and based upon our current knowledge I don't think that we can be sure about the God question. I think that ideas about the actual nature of such a being as God is purported to be are effectively wishful thinking, as we couldn't really relate to such a being in a meaningful way, never mind understand how it and why it operates as it does.

In my lifetime, I've had some "spiritual" experiences that keep my mind open to the possibility of life having a spiritual aspect, but I also accept that life may be as mechanical as empirical the evidence suggests. I was a theist for a long time, so I understand your position, but even as a philosophical theist, you're never going to win a logical argument with an atheist, and the simple reason you won't or get them to seriously consider that what you're saying is valid, is a lack of evidence. As you know, in the secular world there's no grounding without an evidential basis. Experiential evidence and witness reports in the God debate are anecdotal, whereas hard facts denote truth. Since there are no hard facts about God, there's no valid reason for an atheist to believe that God exists. Which I think is reasonable. All that said, it is interesting to read the colourful views of a philosophical theist. You certainly (as many theists do) have heart.

Note: I don't mean to patronise you, if it comes across that way I apologise. These are just my thoughts from reading your debate :) .
Hi, Fanman,

Thank you for the contribution. :)

Agnostic approaches make more sense to me than full atheism. It is a reasonable middle ground for me. Thank you for taking the time to read the contributions of the fellow bloggers. I regret that I can't provide proof, it certainly would make it easier.

BUT TO ALL BLOGGERS,

How could we have freewill to love God, if he revealed himself to us --- because then we would be forced to believe in him..................

Think about it, God is giving us a choice to believe in him, if he revealed himself in all his glory to every person, we could not reject him, but if we take the time, as Fanman says to have heart - to feel - then his introduction to us is more graceful. There is not grace in a God that appears in all his frightful splendor and say: kneel! Perhaps the challenge of belief is, that we have to search our feelings for our self; that we have enough to make the choice of faith. We must find our own means of attaining that faith. Perhaps this is the test, it can't just be handed to us by a miraculous appearance from God, because that would defeat the purpose.
We are a frozen spirit; our thoughts a cloud of droplets; different oceans and ages brood inside – where spirit sublimates. To some our words, an acid rain, to some it is too pure, to some infectious, to some a cure.
Chili
Posts: 392
Joined: September 29th, 2017, 4:59 pm

Re: What do we lose when we believe?

Post by Chili »

I don't believe in evangelicals. I think they are a holographic attempt by aliens to influence human history. ;)
User avatar
Whitedragon
Posts: 1100
Joined: November 14th, 2012, 12:12 pm

Re: What do we lose when we believe?

Post by Whitedragon »

Chili wrote:I don't believe in evangelicals. I think they are a holographic attempt by aliens to influence human history. ;)
Alien: "You're welcome."
We are a frozen spirit; our thoughts a cloud of droplets; different oceans and ages brood inside – where spirit sublimates. To some our words, an acid rain, to some it is too pure, to some infectious, to some a cure.
Fanman
Posts: 3258
Joined: December 14th, 2011, 9:42 am

Re: What do we lose when we believe?

Post by Fanman »

Whitedragon:

Thank you.  
I regret that I can't provide proof, it certainly would make it easier.
Belief in God is something personal to you. You don't have to prove that you're right to anyone, just be aware that not everyone sees from the same perspective as you and that faith is going out of fashion :) . Although I'll admit that it is difficult when you see all roads as leading to one supernatural deity, but cannot prove it. Its something that I found quite frustrating as a theist; as there's no sound logical argument which leads to: "Therefore God exists". If there was, even in the absence of evidence, theism would be in a much stronger position.
Theists believe, agnostics ponder and atheists analyse. A little bit of each should get us the right answer.
User avatar
Whitedragon
Posts: 1100
Joined: November 14th, 2012, 12:12 pm

Re: What do we lose when we believe?

Post by Whitedragon »

Fanman wrote:Whitedragon:

Thank you.  
I regret that I can't provide proof, it certainly would make it easier.
Belief in God is something personal to you. You don't have to prove that you're right to anyone, just be aware that not everyone sees from the same perspective as you and that faith is going out of fashion :) . Although I'll admit that it is difficult when you see all roads as leading to one supernatural deity, but cannot prove it. Its something that I found quite frustrating as a theist; as there's no sound logical argument which leads to: "Therefore God exists". If there was, even in the absence of evidence, theism would be in a much stronger position.
But like I say, perhaps there is a good reason we shouldn't be able to prove it ... come close to proving it, but not quite. Perhaps proof would rob us of our intellectual an emotional responsibility, would proof not detract from our personal growth and evolution?
We are a frozen spirit; our thoughts a cloud of droplets; different oceans and ages brood inside – where spirit sublimates. To some our words, an acid rain, to some it is too pure, to some infectious, to some a cure.
Post Reply

Return to “Philosophy of Religion, Theism and Mythology”

2023/2024 Philosophy Books of the Month

Entanglement - Quantum and Otherwise

Entanglement - Quantum and Otherwise
by John K Danenbarger
January 2023

Mark Victor Hansen, Relentless: Wisdom Behind the Incomparable Chicken Soup for the Soul

Mark Victor Hansen, Relentless: Wisdom Behind the Incomparable Chicken Soup for the Soul
by Mitzi Perdue
February 2023

Rediscovering the Wisdom of Human Nature: How Civilization Destroys Happiness

Rediscovering the Wisdom of Human Nature: How Civilization Destroys Happiness
by Chet Shupe
March 2023

The Unfakeable Code®

The Unfakeable Code®
by Tony Jeton Selimi
April 2023

The Book: On the Taboo Against Knowing Who You Are

The Book: On the Taboo Against Knowing Who You Are
by Alan Watts
May 2023

Killing Abel

Killing Abel
by Michael Tieman
June 2023

Reconfigurement: Reconfiguring Your Life at Any Stage and Planning Ahead

Reconfigurement: Reconfiguring Your Life at Any Stage and Planning Ahead
by E. Alan Fleischauer
July 2023

First Survivor: The Impossible Childhood Cancer Breakthrough

First Survivor: The Impossible Childhood Cancer Breakthrough
by Mark Unger
August 2023

Predictably Irrational

Predictably Irrational
by Dan Ariely
September 2023

Artwords

Artwords
by Beatriz M. Robles
November 2023

Fireproof Happiness: Extinguishing Anxiety & Igniting Hope

Fireproof Happiness: Extinguishing Anxiety & Igniting Hope
by Dr. Randy Ross
December 2023

Beyond the Golden Door: Seeing the American Dream Through an Immigrant's Eyes

Beyond the Golden Door: Seeing the American Dream Through an Immigrant's Eyes
by Ali Master
February 2024

2022 Philosophy Books of the Month

Emotional Intelligence At Work

Emotional Intelligence At Work
by Richard M Contino & Penelope J Holt
January 2022

Free Will, Do You Have It?

Free Will, Do You Have It?
by Albertus Kral
February 2022

My Enemy in Vietnam

My Enemy in Vietnam
by Billy Springer
March 2022

2X2 on the Ark

2X2 on the Ark
by Mary J Giuffra, PhD
April 2022

The Maestro Monologue

The Maestro Monologue
by Rob White
May 2022

What Makes America Great

What Makes America Great
by Bob Dowell
June 2022

The Truth Is Beyond Belief!

The Truth Is Beyond Belief!
by Jerry Durr
July 2022

Living in Color

Living in Color
by Mike Murphy
August 2022 (tentative)

The Not So Great American Novel

The Not So Great American Novel
by James E Doucette
September 2022

Mary Jane Whiteley Coggeshall, Hicksite Quaker, Iowa/National Suffragette And Her Speeches

Mary Jane Whiteley Coggeshall, Hicksite Quaker, Iowa/National Suffragette And Her Speeches
by John N. (Jake) Ferris
October 2022

In It Together: The Beautiful Struggle Uniting Us All

In It Together: The Beautiful Struggle Uniting Us All
by Eckhart Aurelius Hughes
November 2022

The Smartest Person in the Room: The Root Cause and New Solution for Cybersecurity

The Smartest Person in the Room
by Christian Espinosa
December 2022

2021 Philosophy Books of the Month

The Biblical Clock: The Untold Secrets Linking the Universe and Humanity with God's Plan

The Biblical Clock
by Daniel Friedmann
March 2021

Wilderness Cry: A Scientific and Philosophical Approach to Understanding God and the Universe

Wilderness Cry
by Dr. Hilary L Hunt M.D.
April 2021

Fear Not, Dream Big, & Execute: Tools To Spark Your Dream And Ignite Your Follow-Through

Fear Not, Dream Big, & Execute
by Jeff Meyer
May 2021

Surviving the Business of Healthcare: Knowledge is Power

Surviving the Business of Healthcare
by Barbara Galutia Regis M.S. PA-C
June 2021

Winning the War on Cancer: The Epic Journey Towards a Natural Cure

Winning the War on Cancer
by Sylvie Beljanski
July 2021

Defining Moments of a Free Man from a Black Stream

Defining Moments of a Free Man from a Black Stream
by Dr Frank L Douglas
August 2021

If Life Stinks, Get Your Head Outta Your Buts

If Life Stinks, Get Your Head Outta Your Buts
by Mark L. Wdowiak
September 2021

The Preppers Medical Handbook

The Preppers Medical Handbook
by Dr. William W Forgey M.D.
October 2021

Natural Relief for Anxiety and Stress: A Practical Guide

Natural Relief for Anxiety and Stress
by Dr. Gustavo Kinrys, MD
November 2021

Dream For Peace: An Ambassador Memoir

Dream For Peace
by Dr. Ghoulem Berrah
December 2021