What do we lose when we believe?

[Burning ghost]

(Nested quote removed.)

And, again, you would be wrong.

I don't think so.

Very informative!

[Whitedragon]

Alias, are you aware of any beliefs that you have?

Sure. No faiths, though. Maybe that's why I can "tear myself away" from the god/no god argument.

Do you suppose there are tacit beliefs that you hold but may not be aware of?

It's always possible. The down-side of skepticism is that you don't get to sit on unexamined conclusions.
If God, a unicorn or the tooth fairy show up at the bottom of my garden, I'll have to reality-check both them and myself.

And how will you check them and yourself?

[Alias]

[If God, a unicorn or the tooth fairy show up at the bottom of my garden, I'll have to reality-check both them and myself.]

And how will you check them and yourself?

Them, by the same methods I would use to gather forensic evidence for a jury trial.
For myself, medical and psychological examination.
For both, whatever third-party witness statements and background information were available.
(Of course, if it were a single brief encounter, I might put it down to one aspirin too many for breakfast and just keep truckin.)

[Whitedragon]

[If God, a unicorn or the tooth fairy show up at the bottom of my garden, I'll have to reality-check both them and myself.]

And how will you check them and yourself?

Them, by the same methods I would use to gather forensic evidence for a jury trial.
For myself, medical and psychological examination.
For both, whatever third-party witness statements and background information were available.
(Of course, if it were a single brief encounter, I might put it down to one aspirin too many for breakfast and just keep truckin.)

Does anyone possess the ability to analyse the supernatural by employing forensic methods, I would think such conventional means would prove useless. It is illogical to subject allegory and metaphor to empirical study, since it speaks to a different part of the human mind. But by all means bring your chemistry set to Sunday school or a Shakespearean play and analyse the literature, you can put every verse of every sonnet in different test tubes and see what colour it turns.

[Chili]

[If God, a unicorn or the tooth fairy show up at the bottom of my garden, I'll have to reality-check both them and myself.]

And how will you check them and yourself?

Them, by the same methods I would use to gather forensic evidence for a jury trial.
For myself, medical and psychological examination.
For both, whatever third-party witness statements and background information were available.
(Of course, if it were a single brief encounter, I might put it down to one aspirin too many for breakfast and just keep truckin.)

Do you have any beliefs that can't be verified using the scientific method?

[Alias]

Does anyone possess the ability to analyse the supernatural by employing forensic methods, I would think such conventional means would prove useless.

If the phenomena are impervious to physical examination, they're irrelevant to physical existence.
I am a conventional life-form. Anything that doesn't impinge on my world is irrelevant to me.

It is illogical to subject allegory and metaphor to empirical study,

Fine; I have a few skill-sets from different phases of life experience.
Where appropriate, I shall employ the methods of literary criticism.
Where appropriate, I shall use aesthetics and poetics.
I shall use comparative anthropology, astrometry, sociology, metallurgy, garment design or horticulture - whatever is appropriate -
- in any case, what I will not do is leave reason on a shelf outside.

-- Updated October 19th, 2017, 8:36 am to add the following --

Do you have any beliefs that can't be verified using the scientific method?

I have no beliefs that can't be verified by some practical method available to me. You're free to call these scientific or not.

[Chili]

I have no beliefs that can't be verified by some practical method available to me. You're free to call these scientific or not.

Do you consider it scientific to believe in other consciousnesses? Or is it merely practical?

Personally, I accept other minds, not because it is practical or scientific - I'm just going with my gut on this one.

[Alias]

afterthought -

But by all means bring your chemistry set to Sunday school or a Shakespearean play and analyse the literature, you can put every verse of every sonnet in different test tubes and see what colour it turns.

Funnily enough, being somewhat synesthetic, I can probably do that.
(btw - I've taught Sunday school and performed Shakespeare - A third-rate Banquo but passable Rosenkrantz.)

[Whitedragon]

afterthought -

But by all means bring your chemistry set to Sunday school or a Shakespearean play and analyse the literature, you can put every verse of every sonnet in different test tubes and see what colour it turns.

Funnily enough, being somewhat synesthetic, I can probably do that.
(btw - I've taught Sunday school and performed Shakespeare - A third-rate Banquo but passable Rosenkrantz.)

Wait a minute let me just go off topic for two seconds here, Rosenkratz is from Hamlet, I loved that play - what was quite amusing was when they asked Hamlet where Polonius was and Hamlet said at supper, not eating, but being eaten. I also know the whole monologue off by heart of "To be or not to be." I'm a huge fan of Shakespeare and know about twelve of his Sonnets. Thanks, Alias, this was a nice breather for me.

Okay, back on topic. Does it matter if we can prove God exists? I mean, if we could, wouldn't some people still reject him outright?

[Albert Tatlock]

Does it matter if we can prove God exists? I mean, if we could, wouldn't some people still reject him outright?

It doesn't matter either way, if we could prove he doesn't exist the believers wouldn't stop believing.

[Chili]

And what of those who reject God as a "him" and prefer a female God? Are these people just being sticks in the mud?

[Whitedragon]

Does it matter if we can prove God exists? I mean, if we could, wouldn't some people still reject him outright?

It doesn't matter either way, if we could prove he doesn't exist the believers wouldn't stop believing.

I see what you did there. I was wondering where you were. Well, yeah, I mean, if we could prove it, I guess all that is left then is to work with the literature, using what we can to enrich our lives. But indulge me in this supposition: They say an idea can't be destroyed, the story has its power and between you and me I think that's what we're suppose to hang on to, did you see what I wrote about ideas and stories? Once an idea is formed, it has an existence of its own, especially in how it drives people to materialize and use those ideas in the physical world. I think an immortal idea is more powerful than a living being with a life span of three score years and ten?

-- Updated October 19th, 2017, 9:18 am to add the following --

And what of those who reject God as a "him" and prefer a female God? Are these people just being sticks in the mud?

For what it's worth, the name, Elohim is both male and female.

[Alias]

Okay, back on topic. Does it matter if we can prove God exists?

God's existence only matters if its the kind of god that interacts with, or acts upon, us and our world. Proof of its existence only matters if we can interact with, or act upon it, in some way.

I mean, if we could, wouldn't some people still reject him outright?

Might do. Depends how odious he was.

Do you consider it scientific to believe in other consciousnesses? Or is it merely practical?

I'm not sure what you mean by "other" and "believe in".
Do I recognize that other entities besides me are equally conscious? Yes - every organism with a functioning brain. Moreover, the continuity of living things goes back long before a brain of any kind evolved: I am directly related to planktons, just as you are. Long time, many branchings - and that makes interspecies communication sometimes difficult, but not nearly so difficult as intraspecies communication between hostile individuals. Co-operative individuals manage it quite well.
However, there is an etymological difference between "believe" and "believe in" which must be clarified before that question can be adequately answered.

[Whitedragon]

Okay, back on topic. Does it matter if we can prove God exists?

God's existence only matters if its the kind of god that interacts with, or acts upon, us and our world. Proof of its existence only matters if we can interact with, or act upon it, in some way.

I mean, if we could, wouldn't some people still reject him outright?

Might do. Depends how odious he was.

Do you consider it scientific to believe in other consciousnesses? Or is it merely practical?

I'm not sure what you mean by "other" and "believe in".
Do I recognize that other entities besides me are equally conscious? Yes - every organism with a functioning brain. Moreover, the continuity of living things goes back long before a brain of any kind evolved: I am directly related to planktons, just as you are. Long time, many branchings - and that makes interspecies communication sometimes difficult, but not nearly so difficult as intraspecies communication between hostile individuals. Co-operative individuals manage it quite well.
However, there is an etymological difference between "believe" and "believe in" which must be clarified before that question can be adequately answered.

So you say anything that doesn't have a brain can't be conscious ... space is big, some Star Trek episodes come to mind, but I guess you won't believe in that before you see it either, right? Have you watched Morgan Freeman in, "The universe alive," I think it is called?

[Chili]

For what it's worth, the name, Elohim is both male and female.

Those who don't know about the Judeo-Christian tradition, or don't care much about it - do they know "God" ?