If God is all-knowing, then how can I have free will?

Discuss philosophical questions regarding theism (and atheism), and discuss religion as it relates to philosophy. This includes any philosophical discussions that happen to be about god, gods, or a 'higher power' or the belief of them. This also generally includes philosophical topics about organized or ritualistic mysticism or about organized, common or ritualistic beliefs in the existence of supernatural phenomenon.
Belindi
Moderator
Posts: 6105
Joined: September 11th, 2016, 2:11 pm

Re: If God is all-knowing, then how can I have free will?

Post by Belindi »

BobS wrote: March 13th, 2021, 1:25 pm
Belindi wrote: March 13th, 2021, 5:28 am A conservative politician believes in Free Will.This is because if the criminal has Free Will she should be punished for her crimes as she was entirely free to do otherwise then she did, whatever her circumstances. That is why Republicans are both punitive and 'religious'.
Not that I have a firm grip on what "free will" means...

So you're saying that conservative politicians don't really believe in free will; they just find it a handy excuse for being punitive and religious?

In any case, if there's no free will, why not just say that the positions that Republicans take are predetermined? Same for everyone else.
Please note I have spelled Free Will with capital letters. I do so to signify that Free Will is the name of a religious and political doctrine.

Often somebody will say "free will" when what they intend to signify is freedom of choice. Freedom of choice is relative to ruling regime, and personal psychology. Absolute Free Will, on the other hand, signifies the religious doctrine that humans and only humans are endowed with the ability to make choices that are not related to causes.
In any case, if there's no free will, why not just say that the positions that Republicans take are predetermined? Same for everyone else.
(BobS)

That is the important question. Republicans, racists, freedom fighters, saints, intellectuals, and the hewers of wood and drawers of water are all determined in their behaviours and ideas. As am I, and you. As you see I am a determinist.

However within determinism we humans do have a means of increasing our choices. That means is reason. The more you bring reason, knowledge, and refined judgement to the table the more you increase your choices. For instance in pronouncing judgement on a crime the Republican-leaning judge will not be a fan of extenuating circumstances such as poverty. For instance in foreign policy the Republican will not be a fan of historical causes of old hostilities.

To underline extenuating circumstances may seems a recipe for being antisocial if not downright criminal. However the constant attitude of antisocial people is lack of concerns other than their own, and that is a form of ignorance about how societies and natural ecology work. If an individual knows natural ecology and how societies work she will behave and ideate selfishly only if she also adopts short -termism. Short- termism is typical of many Republican policies.

Refined judgement and knowledge( including personal insight ) enlarge the scope of prediction within a deterministic world, possibilities which the ignorant individual lacks. In the interest of freedom within a determined world it is good to increase our own knowledge and judgement and help others especially children to increase theirs.
User avatar
Sculptor1
Posts: 7066
Joined: May 16th, 2019, 5:35 am

Re: If God is all-knowing, then how can I have free will?

Post by Sculptor1 »

BobS wrote: March 13th, 2021, 8:24 pm
Sculptor1 wrote: March 13th, 2021, 3:58 pm
BobS wrote: March 13th, 2021, 1:25 pm
Belindi wrote: March 13th, 2021, 5:28 am A conservative politician believes in Free Will.This is because if the criminal has Free Will she should be punished for her crimes as she was entirely free to do otherwise then she did, whatever her circumstances. That is why Republicans are both punitive and 'religious'.
Not that I have a firm grip on what "free will" means...

So you're saying that conservative politicians don't really believe in free will; they just find it a handy excuse for being punitive and religious?

In any case, if there's no free will, why not just say that the positions that Republicans take are predetermined? Same for everyone else.
As the future is not known there can be no "pre"determinism. We all determined by who and what we are; by the circumstances and the conditions of our environment. But only a omnipotent god would be capable of predicting the future.
In every day conversation "predetermined" is often used interchangeably with "determined." My use of it had nothing to do with predictability.
No.
So "pre" is redundant? There are very good reasons some people use it whilst others are smart enough to not use it.
Predetermination is about Fate - things are written to happen and no matter what you do they come to pass. It is an idea that does not deny free will, but simply makes the action of the will irrelevant.

Given the introductory phrase "if there's no free will," it's odd that you'd suppose I was bringing god into it. I haven't seen anyone around here claim that there's an omnipotent god, on the one hand, but no free will, on the other.
I'm not saying YOU were bringing god into it, but it is an important part of the argument, and has been for centuries.
Fanman
Posts: 3258
Joined: December 14th, 2011, 9:42 am

Re: If God is all-knowing, then how can I have free will?

Post by Fanman »

God is not omnipotent. An omnipotent being must necessarily be capable of doing anything and everything. He cannot do something and then say that he hasn’t done so whilst telling the truth. So he must be just very powerful – if he exists.
Theists believe, agnostics ponder and atheists analyse. A little bit of each should get us the right answer.
Tegularius
Posts: 711
Joined: February 6th, 2021, 5:27 am

Re: If God is all-knowing, then how can I have free will?

Post by Tegularius »

Fanman wrote: March 19th, 2021, 4:16 pm God is not omnipotent. An omnipotent being must necessarily be capable of doing anything and everything. He cannot do something and then say that he hasn’t done so whilst telling the truth. So he must be just very powerful – if he exists.
God becomes extremely unproblematic when submitting to the obvious evidence that there is no evidence for its existence. Not a single one! God has always been an imaginary virus we've interminably used to screw ourselves up and constructed whole philosophies on what amounts to a vacuum.
The earth has a skin and that skin has diseases; one of its diseases is called man ... Nietzsche
Fanman
Posts: 3258
Joined: December 14th, 2011, 9:42 am

Re: If God is all-knowing, then how can I have free will?

Post by Fanman »

Tegularius,
God becomes extremely unproblematic when submitting to the obvious evidence that there is no evidence for its existence. Not a single one! God has always been an imaginary virus we've interminably used to screw ourselves up and constructed whole philosophies on what amounts to a vacuum.
I agree, in terms of there being zero evidence for its existence. Where there is no evidence there is no proof. So we do not have a valid reason, in terms of empiricism, to assent to belief in God. What keeps me agnostic though, is the fact that as human beings, the limits of our comprehension do not necessitate the constitution of reality.

I mean, if we consider the sheer size of the universe, it is unfathomably large. How much knowledge is contained within it that we do not know or even can know? And if we look at something like QM. Our classical models don’t fit. So for me as an agnostic, the reason I remain on the fence is because claiming that God does or does not exist, given the scale of the claim and what we currently know. Is akin to claiming that there is an odd or even number of stars in the universe.

Indeed, religions are vacuous, so I would not base any claim relating to “God”, on a single one of the multitudes of religions that are currently out there.
Theists believe, agnostics ponder and atheists analyse. A little bit of each should get us the right answer.
Belindi
Moderator
Posts: 6105
Joined: September 11th, 2016, 2:11 pm

Re: If God is all-knowing, then how can I have free will?

Post by Belindi »

God is the name of personification of perfect goodness.

Religions are man's attempts at getting people to be good, or at least obey the rules.
User avatar
RexArthur
New Trial Member
Posts: 9
Joined: March 19th, 2021, 9:28 pm

Re: If God is all-knowing, then how can I have free will?

Post by RexArthur »

Actually, if someone threw a rock at your head you would duck because of probability, not determinism. You're not willing to take the chance the rock might miss or, applying quantum mechanics, the very remote chance the rock would simply pass through your head.
User avatar
LuckyR
Moderator
Posts: 7914
Joined: January 18th, 2015, 1:16 am

Re: If God is all-knowing, then how can I have free will?

Post by LuckyR »

RexArthur wrote: March 20th, 2021, 8:59 am Actually, if someone threw a rock at your head you would duck because of probability, not determinism. You're not willing to take the chance the rock might miss or, applying quantum mechanics, the very remote chance the rock would simply pass through your head.
Well, there are two options: one is that you processed the brand new information from your perception that there was an incoming rock and chose to duck (or not duck) or you were destined to duck based on the status of the molecules in your brain, no choosing occured.
"As usual... it depends."
User avatar
LuckyR
Moderator
Posts: 7914
Joined: January 18th, 2015, 1:16 am

Re: If God is all-knowing, then how can I have free will?

Post by LuckyR »

Belindi wrote: March 20th, 2021, 3:21 am God is the name of personification of perfect goodness.

Religions are man's attempts at getting people to be good, or at least obey the rules.
Very accurate. Why folks in the 21st century get hung up on the Iron Age definition of "omniscience", escapes me.
"As usual... it depends."
Tegularius
Posts: 711
Joined: February 6th, 2021, 5:27 am

Re: If God is all-knowing, then how can I have free will?

Post by Tegularius »

Fanman wrote: March 20th, 2021, 2:04 am Tegularius,
God becomes extremely unproblematic when submitting to the obvious evidence that there is no evidence for its existence. Not a single one! God has always been an imaginary virus we've interminably used to screw ourselves up and constructed whole philosophies on what amounts to a vacuum.
I agree, in terms of there being zero evidence for its existence. Where there is no evidence there is no proof. So we do not have a valid reason, in terms of empiricism, to assent to belief in God. What keeps me agnostic though, is the fact that as human beings, the limits of our comprehension do not necessitate the constitution of reality.

I mean, if we consider the sheer size of the universe, it is unfathomably large. How much knowledge is contained within it that we do not know or even can know? And if we look at something like QM. Our classical models don’t fit. So for me as an agnostic, the reason I remain on the fence is because claiming that God does or does not exist, given the scale of the claim and what we currently know. Is akin to claiming that there is an odd or even number of stars in the universe.

Indeed, religions are vacuous, so I would not base any claim relating to “God”, on a single one of the multitudes of religions that are currently out there.
Nicely put, and I don't disagree. For me agnosticism is simply a mild form of atheism which states we cannot know for certain. Logic itself is incapable of reaching any valid conclusions; it's simply impossible for it as a discipline to penetrate beyond its parameters to make god verifiable. What we do know for certain is that in all history there was never any appearance of such an entity and that nothing in all science requires such a concept as an explanation.

Within the precincts of logic as well there is no reason for a god to exist even though, as mentioned, it cannot categorically claim there isn't. With what we already know and no final conclusion possible god diminishes to a near zero possibility not worth pondering. But that won't happen since that would cause the wholesale destruction of religion and its invested interests.

Psychologically and by extension philosophically the god concept can never by wholly uprooted from the human psyche. But we also know that the interior world of the psyche often corresponds very badly with the external world of reality.
The earth has a skin and that skin has diseases; one of its diseases is called man ... Nietzsche
Tegularius
Posts: 711
Joined: February 6th, 2021, 5:27 am

Re: If God is all-knowing, then how can I have free will?

Post by Tegularius »

Belindi wrote: March 20th, 2021, 3:21 am God is the name of personification of perfect goodness.

Religions are man's attempts at getting people to be good, or at least obey the rules.
Sorry, but the very opposite is true as recorded in history.
The earth has a skin and that skin has diseases; one of its diseases is called man ... Nietzsche
User avatar
LuckyR
Moderator
Posts: 7914
Joined: January 18th, 2015, 1:16 am

Re: If God is all-knowing, then how can I have free will?

Post by LuckyR »

Tegularius wrote: March 20th, 2021, 4:22 pm
Belindi wrote: March 20th, 2021, 3:21 am God is the name of personification of perfect goodness.

Religions are man's attempts at getting people to be good, or at least obey the rules.
Sorry, but the very opposite is true as recorded in history.
Obeying rules is separate from goodness and badness, as you pointed out. But it is not inherently the opposite of good.
"As usual... it depends."
Tegularius
Posts: 711
Joined: February 6th, 2021, 5:27 am

Re: If God is all-knowing, then how can I have free will?

Post by Tegularius »

LuckyR wrote: March 20th, 2021, 5:28 pm
Tegularius wrote: March 20th, 2021, 4:22 pm
Belindi wrote: March 20th, 2021, 3:21 am God is the name of personification of perfect goodness.

Religions are man's attempts at getting people to be good, or at least obey the rules.
Sorry, but the very opposite is true as recorded in history.
Obeying rules is separate from goodness and badness, as you pointed out. But it is not inherently the opposite of good.
I never said it was. In fact one must obey rules - depending on the rules - to behave accordingly, but they don't have to be based on religion which more often than not is an infringement of morality as shown in the way people have historically behaved.
The earth has a skin and that skin has diseases; one of its diseases is called man ... Nietzsche
Fanman
Posts: 3258
Joined: December 14th, 2011, 9:42 am

Re: If God is all-knowing, then how can I have free will?

Post by Fanman »

Tegularius,
Logic itself is incapable of reaching any valid conclusions; it's simply impossible for it as a discipline to penetrate beyond its parameters to make god verifiable.
How do you know this? Because it has not yet been accomplished, does it mean that it cannot be accomplished?
Within the precincts of logic as well there is no reason for a god to exist even though, as mentioned, it cannot categorically claim there isn't. With what we already know and no final conclusion possible god diminishes to a near zero possibility not worth pondering. But that won't happen since that would cause the wholesale destruction of religion and its invested interests.
I agree, an excellent point.
Psychologically and by extension philosophically the god concept can never by wholly uprooted from the human psyche. But we also know that the interior world of the psyche often corresponds very badly with the external world of reality.
I wouldn't argue that you're wrong in saying this. But I cannot bring myself to claim that every reported religious experience that has ever been reported, is purely in the minds of people.
Theists believe, agnostics ponder and atheists analyse. A little bit of each should get us the right answer.
Belindi
Moderator
Posts: 6105
Joined: September 11th, 2016, 2:11 pm

Re: If God is all-knowing, then how can I have free will?

Post by Belindi »

LuckyR wrote: March 20th, 2021, 5:28 pm
Tegularius wrote: March 20th, 2021, 4:22 pm
Belindi wrote: March 20th, 2021, 3:21 am God is the name of personification of perfect goodness.

Religions are man's attempts at getting people to be good, or at least obey the rules.
Sorry, but the very opposite is true as recorded in history.
Obeying rules is separate from goodness and badness, as you pointed out. But it is not inherently the opposite of good.
The point at which obeying rules is the opposite of good is the same as the point at which one prostitutes one's moral honesty to emotionalism, nationalism, laziness, apathy, pleasures, and greed.
Post Reply

Return to “Philosophy of Religion, Theism and Mythology”

2023/2024 Philosophy Books of the Month

Entanglement - Quantum and Otherwise

Entanglement - Quantum and Otherwise
by John K Danenbarger
January 2023

Mark Victor Hansen, Relentless: Wisdom Behind the Incomparable Chicken Soup for the Soul

Mark Victor Hansen, Relentless: Wisdom Behind the Incomparable Chicken Soup for the Soul
by Mitzi Perdue
February 2023

Rediscovering the Wisdom of Human Nature: How Civilization Destroys Happiness

Rediscovering the Wisdom of Human Nature: How Civilization Destroys Happiness
by Chet Shupe
March 2023

The Unfakeable Code®

The Unfakeable Code®
by Tony Jeton Selimi
April 2023

The Book: On the Taboo Against Knowing Who You Are

The Book: On the Taboo Against Knowing Who You Are
by Alan Watts
May 2023

Killing Abel

Killing Abel
by Michael Tieman
June 2023

Reconfigurement: Reconfiguring Your Life at Any Stage and Planning Ahead

Reconfigurement: Reconfiguring Your Life at Any Stage and Planning Ahead
by E. Alan Fleischauer
July 2023

First Survivor: The Impossible Childhood Cancer Breakthrough

First Survivor: The Impossible Childhood Cancer Breakthrough
by Mark Unger
August 2023

Predictably Irrational

Predictably Irrational
by Dan Ariely
September 2023

Artwords

Artwords
by Beatriz M. Robles
November 2023

Fireproof Happiness: Extinguishing Anxiety & Igniting Hope

Fireproof Happiness: Extinguishing Anxiety & Igniting Hope
by Dr. Randy Ross
December 2023

Beyond the Golden Door: Seeing the American Dream Through an Immigrant's Eyes

Beyond the Golden Door: Seeing the American Dream Through an Immigrant's Eyes
by Ali Master
February 2024

2022 Philosophy Books of the Month

Emotional Intelligence At Work

Emotional Intelligence At Work
by Richard M Contino & Penelope J Holt
January 2022

Free Will, Do You Have It?

Free Will, Do You Have It?
by Albertus Kral
February 2022

My Enemy in Vietnam

My Enemy in Vietnam
by Billy Springer
March 2022

2X2 on the Ark

2X2 on the Ark
by Mary J Giuffra, PhD
April 2022

The Maestro Monologue

The Maestro Monologue
by Rob White
May 2022

What Makes America Great

What Makes America Great
by Bob Dowell
June 2022

The Truth Is Beyond Belief!

The Truth Is Beyond Belief!
by Jerry Durr
July 2022

Living in Color

Living in Color
by Mike Murphy
August 2022 (tentative)

The Not So Great American Novel

The Not So Great American Novel
by James E Doucette
September 2022

Mary Jane Whiteley Coggeshall, Hicksite Quaker, Iowa/National Suffragette And Her Speeches

Mary Jane Whiteley Coggeshall, Hicksite Quaker, Iowa/National Suffragette And Her Speeches
by John N. (Jake) Ferris
October 2022

In It Together: The Beautiful Struggle Uniting Us All

In It Together: The Beautiful Struggle Uniting Us All
by Eckhart Aurelius Hughes
November 2022

The Smartest Person in the Room: The Root Cause and New Solution for Cybersecurity

The Smartest Person in the Room
by Christian Espinosa
December 2022

2021 Philosophy Books of the Month

The Biblical Clock: The Untold Secrets Linking the Universe and Humanity with God's Plan

The Biblical Clock
by Daniel Friedmann
March 2021

Wilderness Cry: A Scientific and Philosophical Approach to Understanding God and the Universe

Wilderness Cry
by Dr. Hilary L Hunt M.D.
April 2021

Fear Not, Dream Big, & Execute: Tools To Spark Your Dream And Ignite Your Follow-Through

Fear Not, Dream Big, & Execute
by Jeff Meyer
May 2021

Surviving the Business of Healthcare: Knowledge is Power

Surviving the Business of Healthcare
by Barbara Galutia Regis M.S. PA-C
June 2021

Winning the War on Cancer: The Epic Journey Towards a Natural Cure

Winning the War on Cancer
by Sylvie Beljanski
July 2021

Defining Moments of a Free Man from a Black Stream

Defining Moments of a Free Man from a Black Stream
by Dr Frank L Douglas
August 2021

If Life Stinks, Get Your Head Outta Your Buts

If Life Stinks, Get Your Head Outta Your Buts
by Mark L. Wdowiak
September 2021

The Preppers Medical Handbook

The Preppers Medical Handbook
by Dr. William W Forgey M.D.
October 2021

Natural Relief for Anxiety and Stress: A Practical Guide

Natural Relief for Anxiety and Stress
by Dr. Gustavo Kinrys, MD
November 2021

Dream For Peace: An Ambassador Memoir

Dream For Peace
by Dr. Ghoulem Berrah
December 2021