The Physical Presence of the God is the Earth

Discuss philosophical questions regarding theism (and atheism), and discuss religion as it relates to philosophy. This includes any philosophical discussions that happen to be about god, gods, or a 'higher power' or the belief of them. This also generally includes philosophical topics about organized or ritualistic mysticism or about organized, common or ritualistic beliefs in the existence of supernatural phenomenon.
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Belindi
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Re: The Physical Presence of the God is the Earth

Post by Belindi »

baker wrote: December 16th, 2020, 6:50 am Belindi --

Good, bad, beauty, truth, death, and many others are usually considered ordinary household words, and we don't typically source them back to this or that specific religion or philosophy.

Would it be correct to say that you think that "God" is that kind of ordinary household word as well?
God is a sanctification of those concepts.
https://www.dictionary.com/browse/sanctify

I mean 'sanctify ' like in meaning number 3. The name and concept of a God Who intervenes in history is controlled by the priestly profession or caste which up until recent years has been a high status profession or caste.
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Re: The Physical Presence of the God is the Earth

Post by SimonP »

Greta wrote: December 16th, 2020, 7:21 pm Simon, easy on the ad hominems.

1. The Great Oxygenation Event is not controversial, nor only the domain of popular science.

2. Most life did not thrive rather than died out during the Great Oxygenation Event.

3. Anaerobic organisms do not thrive in environments flooded with oxygen. Their metabolisms rely on enzymes that react with oxygen, causing reactions to the organisms' detriment.


So, the point stands - humans are currently causing a major extinction event and significantly changing the conditions of the Earth's surface. This is exactly what the cyanobacteria did with the Great Oxygenation Event.

The extra oxygen provided by the GOE made it possible for large, intelligent organisms to evolve. By the same token, if one lived long enough, it would be fascinating to see what happens after the Anthropocene. Many people guess total devastation - the end of everything - the same guess made by every generation for thousands of years.

More realistically, what will be interesting is what grows out of the destruction, facilitated by products of the species causing extinctions.
Greta your strawmen alone are ad hominems.

1. Quote me where I stated that GOE is controversial and only a domain of popular science.

2. How do you know?

3. In an earlier post you quoted from an article in sciencealert, here is another on the same subject written by the same author a few months earlier with the following description of GOE: "The Great Oxidation Event (GOE) was a time of feasting, as life flourished and diversified and spread." https://www.sciencealert.com/even-more- ... -dinosaurs

You are simply repeating your claim over and over again while ignoring my refuting them. The fact that oxygen in the atmosphere is unfavourable to anaerobic life forms likely causing many extinctions does not mean that life didn't thrive as it favours aerobic life forms which are more efficient and therefore more than make up for the extinctions with new species. I made this point before so why repeat yourself?
SimonP wrote: December 12th, 2020, 1:44 pm A study last year actually showed that the increased levels of oxygen led to an increase in the biosphere which can only mean an increase in diversity and not a mass extinction as normally defined ie with the extinction of a large proportion of the total forms of life in a sharp fall in diversity.
While the increase in oxygen in the atmosphere undoubtedly led to many anaerobic life forms going extinct in the run of the 350 million years, many more aerobic life forms emerged at the same time, giving a net increase in diversity.
I'm not talking about "large, intelligent organisms" here, merely aerobic ones. The "large, intelligent organisms" came into the picture much later.

So no, cyanobacteria didn't cause a mass extinction event under GOE, just the opposite. Your alluding to humankind's present activities leading to mass extinctions as something which with time will have a positive effect is, I would suggest highly controversial! By burning fossil fuels we are in effect reversing what cyanobacteria started ie we are returning the atmosphere to a carbon dioxide one like it was for the first half of life's history on the planet, and like it still is on our neighbouring planets Venus and Mars, neither of which presents a favourable outlook albeit very different environments. We have already sent our products to Venus and Mars and looked at what a future would be and even though they faired better on Mars, it's hard to see much of a future for life there. Looking for extraterrestrial life it's generally regarded as most likely to be found where there is water and oxygen not carbon dioxide and ice as with Mars, or steam as with Venus.
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Sy Borg
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Re: The Physical Presence of the God is the Earth

Post by Sy Borg »

Simon, I ignore what you say because you keep missing the point and then you ignore me when I explain the point again.

My point, again, is that the GOE made the evolution of today's organisms possible. You reckoned that is controversial and have gone off at me for pages about it, but it's not controversial at all.

My suggestion that humans may be doing the same as the cyanobacteria - effectively clearing the decks for a new kind of evolution - is obviously speculative (and I am not the only one to wonder about this, eg. Kurtzweil et al). There are times when one must move beyond mere regurgitation and conduct one's own meta analyses and see whose models make the most sense.

There is no future for life on Earth anyway. It has been going for about four billion years and, due to the Sun's ageing process, it is said that in just one billion years the oceans will boil away. That's 100C. Apparently a rise of 10C would be catastrophic, so we can assume that the biosphere has completed the vast majority of its lifespan.

The only intelligent life to survive what is coming will be the intelligent life we create or evolve into. Already, human creations have more mass than all life on Earth. It doesn't suit me because I like animals, and I would much prefer a "soft landing" with climate change and I have no respect for the vested interests standing in the way of transitioning to renewable energy and more effective recycling.

But, unlike many, I'm interested in only presenting scenarios that I like, but to understand reality, including the parts that don't suit me.
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Re: The Physical Presence of the God is the Earth

Post by SimonP »

Greta wrote: December 19th, 2020, 3:39 pm Simon, I ignore what you say because you keep missing the point and then you ignore me when I explain the point again.

My point, again, is that the GOE made the evolution of today's organisms possible. You reckoned that is controversial and have gone off at me for pages about it, but it's not controversial at all.

My suggestion that humans may be doing the same as the cyanobacteria - effectively clearing the decks for a new kind of evolution - is obviously speculative (and I am not the only one to wonder about this, eg. Kurtzweil et al). There are times when one must move beyond mere regurgitation and conduct one's own meta analyses and see whose models make the most sense.

There is no future for life on Earth anyway. It has been going for about four billion years and, due to the Sun's ageing process, it is said that in just one billion years the oceans will boil away. That's 100C. Apparently a rise of 10C would be catastrophic, so we can assume that the biosphere has completed the vast majority of its lifespan.

The only intelligent life to survive what is coming will be the intelligent life we create or evolve into. Already, human creations have more mass than all life on Earth. It doesn't suit me because I like animals, and I would much prefer a "soft landing" with climate change and I have no respect for the vested interests standing in the way of transitioning to renewable energy and more effective recycling.

But, unlike many, I'm interested in only presenting scenarios that I like, but to understand reality, including the parts that don't suit me.
You keep moving the goalposts of your point! Your comparison og humankind with cyanobacteria was that both are responsible for mass extinction events - now "clearing the decks" and that with cyanobacteria it is indisputable ie a matter of the record and that wasn't even controversial, only the details.

Try this from prof. Nick Lane from his book "The Vital Question: Why is life the way it is?"
The easiest explanation for the deep differences between bacteria and eukaryotes is competition. Once the first true eukaryotes had evolved, the argument goes, they were so competitive that they dominated the niche of morphological complexity. Nothing else could compete. Any bacteria that "tried" to invade this eukaryotic niche were given short shrift by the sophisticated cells that already lived there. To use the parlance, they were outcompeted to extinction. We are all familiar with the mass extinctions of dinosaurs and other large plants and animals, so this explanation seems perfectly reasonable. The small, furry anc estors of modern mammals were held in check by the dinosaurs for millions of years, only radiating into modern groupos after the dinosaurs' demise. Yet there are some good reasons to question this comfortable but deceptive idea. Microbes are not equivalent to large animals: their population sizes are enormously larger, and they pass around useful genes (such as those for antibiotic resistance) by lateral gene transfer, making them very much less vulnerable to extinction. There is no hint of any microbial extinction, even in the aftermath of the Great Oxidation Event. The 'oxygen holocaust', which supposedly wiped out most anaerobic cells, can't be traced at all: there is no evidence from either phylogenetics or geochemistry that such an extinction ever took place. On the contrary, anaerobes prospered.

More significantly, there is very strong evidence that the intermediates were not, in fact, outcompeted to extinction by more sophisticated eukaryotes. They still exist. We met them already - the 'archezoa', that large group of primative eukaryotes that were once mistaken for a missing link. they are not true evolutionary intermediates, but they're real ecological intermediates. they occupy the same niche. An evolutionary intermediate is a missing link - a fish with legs, such as Tiktaalik, or a dinosaur with feathers and wings, such as Archaeopteryx. an ecological intermediate is not a true missing link but it proves that a certain niche, a way of life, is viable. a flying squirrel is not closely related to other flying vertebrates such as bats or birds, but it demonstrates that gliding flight between trees is possible without fully fledged wings. That means it's not pure make-believe to suggest that powered flight could have started that way. And that is the real significance of the archezoa - they are ecological intermediates, which prove that a certain way of life is viable.
Kurtzweil is not an evolutionary scientist i contrast to Nick Lane, but a futurist working for Google. Meta analysis is a buzz word and a lot of the time not worth much, just look at MGM for evidence of that. You present yourself as progressive and open minded interested in reality, when in fact you have presented fix ideas you are unwilling to have challenged. Even when you know you are wrong you won't admit it until you get an admission from me in a trade off! Now I've presented you for a prof in evolutionary biochemistry saying there was no mass extinction, are you going to admit it isn't a matter of record or cling to your" reality"?

I have appealed multiple times for you to consider the time perspective and now you speak of a billion years into the future without considering the exponential development of life. We've already sent artifacts into interstellar space that will survive the predicted end of life on earth. We could migrate outwards to the outer reaches of the solar system in tact with the growing sun, maybe even taking the earth with us! Whatever we are not comparable to bacteria as just another dominant lifeform in a long rack. We have knowledge and it is growing exponentially and passed on through the generations. We are capable of playing out different scenarios and planning ahead, we're even capable of managing our own evolution. We have technology etc etc...

No once more you skipped the details and read what you wanted to, our creations don't have more mass than all life on earth, it's all dried out terrestial life, big difference considering water makes up the vast majority of living organisms. You think climate change is a soft landing? What about getting hit by a giant rock from space that caused the last mass extinction event among all the other calamities we living organisms have been through the last billion years, that all has to be included right? Can't you see you're cheating with the cards?
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Sy Borg
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Re: The Physical Presence of the God is the Earth

Post by Sy Borg »

The fact that you are incapable of debate without personal attacks says more about you than me (or your other victims on the circumcision thread).

Why not try disagreeing with grace for once?
SimonP wrote: December 19th, 2020, 7:25 pm
Greta wrote: December 19th, 2020, 3:39 pmMy point, again, is that the GOE made the evolution of today's organisms possible. You reckoned that is controversial and have gone off at me for pages about it, but it's not controversial at all.

My suggestion that humans may be doing the same as the cyanobacteria - effectively clearing the decks for a new kind of evolution - is obviously speculative (and I am not the only one to wonder about this, eg. Kurtzweil et al). There are times when one must move beyond mere regurgitation and conduct one's own meta analyses and see whose models make the most sense.

There is no future for life on Earth anyway. It has been going for about four billion years and, due to the Sun's ageing process, it is said that in just one billion years the oceans will boil away. That's 100C. Apparently a rise of 10C would be catastrophic, so we can assume that the biosphere has completed the vast majority of its lifespan.

The only intelligent life to survive what is coming will be the intelligent life we create or evolve into. Already, human creations have more mass than all life on Earth. It doesn't suit me because I like animals, and I would much prefer a "soft landing" with climate change and I have no respect for the vested interests standing in the way of transitioning to renewable energy and more effective recycling.

But, unlike many, I'm interested in only presenting scenarios that I like, but to understand reality, including the parts that don't suit me.
You keep moving the goalposts of your point! Your comparison og humankind with cyanobacteria was that both are responsible for mass extinction events - now "clearing the decks" and that with cyanobacteria it is indisputable ie a matter of the record and that wasn't even controversial, only the details.

Try this from prof. Nick Lane from his book "The Vital Question: Why is life the way it is?"
The easiest explanation for the deep differences between bacteria and eukaryotes is competition. Once the first true eukaryotes had evolved, the argument goes, they were so competitive that they dominated the niche of morphological complexity. Nothing else could compete. Any bacteria that "tried" to invade this eukaryotic niche were given short shrift by the sophisticated cells that already lived there. To use the parlance, they were outcompeted to extinction. We are all familiar with the mass extinctions of dinosaurs and other large plants and animals, so this explanation seems perfectly reasonable. The small, furry anc estors of modern mammals were held in check by the dinosaurs for millions of years, only radiating into modern groupos after the dinosaurs' demise. Yet there are some good reasons to question this comfortable but deceptive idea. Microbes are not equivalent to large animals: their population sizes are enormously larger, and they pass around useful genes (such as those for antibiotic resistance) by lateral gene transfer, making them very much less vulnerable to extinction. There is no hint of any microbial extinction, even in the aftermath of the Great Oxidation Event. The 'oxygen holocaust', which supposedly wiped out most anaerobic cells, can't be traced at all: there is no evidence from either phylogenetics or geochemistry that such an extinction ever took place. On the contrary, anaerobes prospered.

More significantly, there is very strong evidence that the intermediates were not, in fact, outcompeted to extinction by more sophisticated eukaryotes. They still exist. We met them already - the 'archezoa', that large group of primative eukaryotes that were once mistaken for a missing link. they are not true evolutionary intermediates, but they're real ecological intermediates. they occupy the same niche. An evolutionary intermediate is a missing link - a fish with legs, such as Tiktaalik, or a dinosaur with feathers and wings, such as Archaeopteryx. an ecological intermediate is not a true missing link but it proves that a certain niche, a way of life, is viable. a flying squirrel is not closely related to other flying vertebrates such as bats or birds, but it demonstrates that gliding flight between trees is possible without fully fledged wings. That means it's not pure make-believe to suggest that powered flight could have started that way. And that is the real significance of the archezoa - they are ecological intermediates, which prove that a certain way of life is viable.
You are right, there is actually controversy about the GOE. However, it is still only a young and yet-to-be-tested hypothesis. Thanks for the Nick Lane info. I was not aware of his work.

Still your complaints remain moot because the extra oxygen made humans and other sophisticated eukaryotes possible. Further, the out-competing claim is a straw man. It's not out-competing when all the anaerobic organisms retreat from the oxygen to anaerobic conditions. It's claiming vacated niches.


[SIMON'S AD HOMINEM] You present yourself as progressive and open minded interested in reality, when in fact you have presented fix ideas you are unwilling to have challenged. Even when you know you are wrong you won't admit it until you get an admission from me in a trade off! [/SIMON'S AD HOMINEM]

Look in the mirror before casting judgement, because your attack on me describes yourself precisely. Anyone reading the circumcision thread will see that your ideas are not just fixed, they are dogma - a woe betide anyone who dared question your obsession.

I am just interested in civilised and reasonable discussion with others who like to think about the nature of reality, and to do what needs to be done as Admin. If you think I paint myself as anything, then you are imagining things.

SimonP wrote: December 19th, 2020, 7:25 pmI have appealed multiple times for you to consider the time perspective and now you speak of a billion years into the future without considering the exponential development of life.[/quote
Are you suggesting that life on the Earth's surface will survive the oceans boiling away? Life may develop in exponential ways at times,p but it's not that exponential. The only way complex life survives on Earth at that time is if we have machine/human hybrids.
SimonP wrote: December 19th, 2020, 7:25 pm We've already sent artifacts into interstellar space that will survive the predicted end of life on earth. We could migrate outwards to the outer reaches of the solar system in tact with the growing sun, maybe even taking the earth with us!
No, "we" will not migrate anywhere from Earth, ever. Our mechanised successors most likely will, but whatever migrates from earth will not be human, or even biological, based on current definitions. The alternative is that all life on Earth simply dies before technology reaches that level of sophistication.

Still, whatever AI or cyborg entities stem from us, in a sense they will be about as human as we are great apes. They will be infused with our perceptions, thoughts and ideas, which really are just extrapolations of the concepts of nature.

SimonP wrote: December 19th, 2020, 7:25 pmWhatever we are not comparable to bacteria as just another dominant lifeform in a long rack. We have knowledge and it is growing exponentially and passed on through the generations. We are capable of playing out different scenarios and planning ahead, we're even capable of managing our own evolution. We have technology etc etc...
Nope, we are just another dominant life form reshaping its environment, the main difference is just that we are global rather than regional. The use of "we" suggests a fundamental misunderstanding of the situation. "We" may play out various scenarios and try to plan ahead but it's not been very successully. That is, unless we planned to:

- cram into polluted overpopulated cities
- destroy the very ecosystems that sustain us
- change to climate so it becomes ever more inhospitable and dangerous
- increasing extreme inequality
- deplete natural resources
- rampant depression and anxiety
- pandemics.

If we planned this - and all our other cock-ups - then we don't appear to be have very good plans. Your notion that humans are doing more en masse to control their destiny than other species is mistaken. Humans do what all do species - all that they can to thrive that is within their power.

SimonP wrote: December 19th, 2020, 7:25 pmNo once more you skipped the details and read what you wanted to, our creations don't have more mass than all life on earth ...
This is an amazing situation. You are just quibbling again, so focused on the trees that you are in denial that the forest exists. When you consider just how much stuff is needed to outweigh all life on Earth - even without water - that is extraordinary, not a cue for bad faith replies.

https://www.scientificamerican.com/arti ... -on-earth/
Humanity has reached a new milestone in its dominance of the planet: human-made objects may now outweigh all of the living beings on Earth.

Roads, houses, shopping malls, fishing vessels, printer paper, coffee mugs, smartphones and all the other infrastructure of daily life now weigh in at approximately 1.1 trillion metric tons—equal to the combined dry weight of all plants, animals, fungi, bacteria, archaea and protists on the planet. The creation of this human-made mass has rapidly accelerated over the past 120 years: Artificial objects have gone from just 3 percent of the world’s biomass in 1900 to on par with it today. And the amount of new stuff being produced every week is equivalent to the average body weight of all 7.7 billion people.

The implications of these findings, published on Wednesday in Nature, are staggering. The world’s plastics alone now weigh twice as much as the planet’s marine and terrestrial animals. Buildings and infrastructure outweigh trees and shrubs. “We cannot hide behind the feeling that we’re just a small species, one out of many,” says study co-author Ron Milo, who researches plant and environmental sciences at the Weizmann Institute of Science in Israel. These numbers should be a wake-up call, he adds. They tell us “something about the responsibility that we have, given that we have become a dominant force,” Milo says.
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Re: The Physical Presence of the God is the Earth

Post by kk23wong »

Sorry everyone, but when i looked at the latest trend of science recently, most of them believe the origin of lives come from the outer space. As a result, the Earth was not seemingly likely to be a form of living thing - or a supreme being. Of course, it is definitely not just a rock or a place to be called. Mystery of the Earth remains, but I doubt about its consciousness myself. This candle of lives may not be a supreme being. I am sorry for making such mistake, but I don't think it is a silly mistake if you look at the uniqueness of this planet as a whole.

I do not mean to overturn myself or my hypothesis, but it is a fact that we're all facing right now. If the origin of lives come from the outer space, the core of this planet would not be likely to take a part or having any function in its operation as a unity. The core of the Earth is a determine factor in this hypothesis.

Peace
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Re: The Physical Presence of the God is the Earth

Post by Steve3007 »

Sorry everyone, but when i looked at the latest trend of science recently, most of them believe the origin of lives come from the outer space. As a result, the Earth was not seemingly likely to be a form of living thing - or a supreme being...
Good to see that's been cleared up.
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Re: The Physical Presence of the God is the Earth

Post by kk23wong »

Steve3007 wrote: December 22nd, 2020, 8:52 am
Sorry everyone, but when i looked at the latest trend of science recently, most of them believe the origin of lives come from the outer space. As a result, the Earth was not seemingly likely to be a form of living thing - or a supreme being...
Good to see that's been cleared up.
yea, even though it's obviously not a very good news for me :roll:
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A Teller is the Teller in the Holy Bible if you are seeking.

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Re: The Physical Presence of the God is the Earth

Post by kk23wong »

Every small step counts in human history. The foul of this hypothesis do contribute to the greatest question of our world -- that is the actual form of existence of the God. Or I shall put it this way: For our planet Earth in this vast universe
Looking for the Truth Teller in this website https://linktr.ee/kk23wong
A Teller is the Teller in the Holy Bible if you are seeking.

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Re: The Physical Presence of the God is the Earth

Post by Sy Borg »

kk23wong wrote: December 22nd, 2020, 8:49 am... the Earth ... Of course, it is definitely not just a rock or a place to be called. Mystery of the Earth remains, but I doubt about its consciousness myself.
So says a part of the Earth.
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