Philosophy Discussion Forums

Belindi wrote: ↑March 31st, 2018, 6:26 am Nameless, within the confines of idealist (immaterialist) monism you are right. Materialism is not so much dead as that it has been relegated to co-exist with idealism (immaterialism).

Only in the sense that they are both theories.
They cannot both be 'true'.
Materialism says that the brain manufactures Consciousness/Thought.There is simply no evidence, and evidence to the contrary.

Regarding free will our differences of opinion depend upon what you mean by 'free will' .

The only 'free-will/choice' of which I am cognizant is the 'feeling' (feelings are thought) that we make 'choices'. The making of unfettered choices requires 'free-will'.
All exist within ego/thought.
Mirages.
I certainly don't believe in it.

I believe in determinism so I don't believe that what happened could be otherwise than it was.

Can we bring this into the Reality of Here! Now!?;
What IS (happenING) can never be otherwise than it Is!
And if THAT is true, then 'motion' (the whole '-ing' thing) is impossible!

However the possibilities of human imagination are so creative that we do as a matter of fact feel like we have free will. It's the idea that will has a substantial correlate that's wrong.

'Free', no more than a feeling
'will', a vain feeling that one 'causes to happen' according to desires.
'choice', another feeling/thought.

'Substantial correlate'? Are you referring to the dream? *__-

Belindi wrote: ↑March 31st, 2018, 6:26 am Nameless, within the confines of idealist (immaterialist) monism you are right.

Within the confines of Reality, science, logic, philosophy...
Monism has no 'confines'.

“Your task is not to seek for Love, but merely to seek and find all the barriers within yourself that you have built against it.” - Rumi

Once you have discovered that the barrier is ego consciousness you have to have faith in love despite ego consciousness: not declare that ego-consciousness is delusionary.

Ego/duality/thought is the 'mirage' that obscures unconditional Love for the seeker.
It is fair to point out distractions and barriers on the 'path' to those following.
'Faith' is an unconditional Virtue of unconditional Love.
By these Virtues, we can recognize Love!

Namelesss wrote: ↑March 31st, 2018, 6:02 am

Belindi wrote: ↑March 31st, 2018, 5:28 am Nemless wrote:
Perspectives pertain to living entities that have nervous systems.

No, they don't.
Well, in your opinion, I guess.
Nervous systems have nothing to do with it any more than the flow of a river has any effect on the electrons within the water molecules.

Perspective more or less pertains to vision, as to have a point of view, but it's hard to say what a plant might perceive. The flow of a river though has direct impact on the electrons of the water molecule by bringing the molecule into different energy states (H3O2.)

Namelesss wrote: ↑March 31st, 2018, 6:45 am

I believe in determinism so I don't believe that what happened could be otherwise than it was.

Can we bring this into the Reality of Here! Now!?;
What IS (happenING) can never be otherwise than it Is!
And if THAT is true, then 'motion' (the whole '-ing' thing) is impossible!

"What is" is a result of our choices and it can be changed by our choices.

Namelesss wrote: ↑March 31st, 2018, 6:45 am

However the possibilities of human imagination are so creative that we do as a matter of fact feel like we have free will. It's the idea that will has a substantial correlate that's wrong.

'Free', no more than a feeling
'will', a vain feeling that one 'causes to happen' according to desires.
'choice', another feeling/thought.

'Substantial correlate'? Are you referring to the dream? *__-

Is disease a condition that can or not be prevented? Well, it's proven that most disease occurs when things enter the body that aren't supposed to. In the case of chronic disease, the condition arises from a state of body known as "leaky gut" which is caused by our diet. So.. it seem that the food we eat has a direct impact on our state of health. So.. choice in food is important.

jerlands wrote: ↑March 31st, 2018, 10:51 am

Namelesss wrote: ↑March 31st, 2018, 6:02 am
No, they don't.
Well, in your opinion, I guess.
Nervous systems have nothing to do with it any more than the flow of a river has any effect on the electrons within the water molecules.

Perspective more or less pertains to vision, as to have a point of view, but it's hard to say what a plant might perceive.

Less than more. Much less.

The flow of a river though has direct impact on the electrons of the water molecule by bringing the molecule into different energy states

Nonsense.

(H3O2.)

More nonsense.
'Magic water'!? Are these sites where you learn your 'science'?
Why not attempt to understand the metaphor offered rather than just niggling at it?

jerlands wrote: ↑March 31st, 2018, 12:15 pm

Namelesss wrote: ↑March 31st, 2018, 6:45 am

Can we bring this into the Reality of Here! Now!?;
What IS (happenING) can never be otherwise than it Is!
And if THAT is true, then 'motion' (the whole '-ing' thing) is impossible!

"What is" is a result of our choices and it can be changed by our choices.

Oh really? Feel free to 'change' any moment of Universal existence via your vain 'choices'?
No moment, EVER, has ever been 'otherwise/changed'!
Ever!
Nor can you change what is, at any moment, into what you vainly desire, by your 'will', or otherwise.
What is ALWAYS is what is!
No evidence at all to even suggest otherwise other than your vain egoic hallucinations.

Is disease a condition that can or not be prevented?

Not anything that 'is' can be 'prevented'. Reality cannot be 'prevented' or altered by your vain (yeah, I know that I use that appropriate word often) 'efforts'.
Not anything that is can ever be otherwise.

Namelesss wrote: ↑March 31st, 2018, 9:17 pm

jerlands wrote: ↑March 31st, 2018, 10:51 am Perspective more or less pertains to vision, as to have a point of view, but it's hard to say what a plant might perceive.

Less than more. Much less.

Well, now I know.

Namelesss wrote: ↑March 31st, 2018, 9:17 pm

The flow of a river though has direct impact on the electrons of the water molecule by bringing the molecule into different energy states

Nonsense.

Nope, that's how it works.

Namelesss wrote: ↑March 31st, 2018, 9:17 pm

(H3O2.)

More nonsense.
'Magic water'!? Are these sites where you learn your 'science'?
Why not attempt to understand the metaphor offered rather than just niggling at it?

Umm, Gerald Pollack is a well respected professor. If that's your opinion of him after watching the video then I think you're a poor judge of character

Namelesss wrote: ↑March 31st, 2018, 9:25 pm

jerlands wrote: ↑March 31st, 2018, 12:15 pm "What is" is a result of our choices and it can be changed by our choices.

Oh really? Feel free to 'change' any moment of Universal existence via your vain 'choices'?

Ok.. I dare ya. Find the darkest city alley and walk down it.

Namelesss wrote: ↑March 31st, 2018, 9:25 pm No moment, EVER, has ever been 'otherwise/changed'!
Ever!
Nor can you change what is, at any moment, into what you vainly desire, by your 'will', or otherwise.
What is ALWAYS is what is!
No evidence at all to even suggest otherwise other than your vain egoic hallucinations.

Don't flush your toilet for one week and then flush.

Namelesss wrote: ↑March 31st, 2018, 9:25 pm

Is disease a condition that can or not be prevented?

Not anything that 'is' can be 'prevented'. Reality cannot be 'prevented' or altered by your vain (yeah, I know that I use that appropriate word often) 'efforts'.
Not anything that is can ever be otherwise.

I think you simply chose not to test your own hypothesis.

jerlands wrote: ↑March 31st, 2018, 10:02 pm

Namelesss wrote: ↑March 31st, 2018, 9:17 pm Nonsense.

Nope, that's how it works.

Have you ever taken a science course?

Namelesss wrote: ↑March 31st, 2018, 9:17 pm More nonsense.
'Magic water'!? Are these the sites where you learn your 'science'?
Why not attempt to understand the metaphor offered rather than just niggling at it?

Umm, Gerald Pollack is a well respected professor. If that's your opinion of him after watching the video then I think you're a poor judge of character

Umm, I don't learn science from crackpots, no matter the entertainment value, or how he might validate my biases and belief infection.
I have no need to judge 'character', all I need to evaluate are his thoughts.

Michio Kaku is an entertainer/physicist, but when he starts talking about his 'magic water' responding to and changing crystalline structure because of happy and nasty words printed on a label on the bottle before freezing, we then enter the crackpot world.

EZ-Water - Fraud or breakthrough?

https://chemistry.stackexchange.com/que ... eakthrough

"Recently the quack medicine folks online have been promoting the research of a certain Dr. Gerald Pollack who claims to have discovered a "forth phase of water", and who has recently published a book on the said topic.

Although it's clear that his research is being deliberately misinterpreted, it's not clear to me whether or not his own claims are valid in the first place. Although some papers on the topic were published in peer reviewed journals, it doesn't seem like anyone else in the scientific community has acknowledged or replicated his results..."

jerlands wrote: ↑March 31st, 2018, 10:33 pm

Namelesss wrote: ↑March 31st, 2018, 9:25 pm
Oh really? Feel free to 'change' any moment of Universal existence via your vain 'choices'?

Ok.. I dare ya. Find the darkest city alley and walk down it.

Your 'dare' is utterly irrelevant!
So far I can only see four possibilities;
1) I am incapable of elucidating my thoughts, so that you are able to understand them.
2) You are being deliberately obtuse.
3) You have no intention of even making an honest attempt to understand what I am offering (symptomatic of the ravages of a belief infection), and deliberately wasting my generous time.
4) You lack the capability of understanding.

Namelesss wrote: ↑March 31st, 2018, 9:25 pm No moment, EVER, has ever been 'otherwise/changed'!
Ever!
Nor can you change what is, at any moment, into what you vainly desire, by your 'will', or otherwise.
What is ALWAYS is what is!
No evidence at all to even suggest otherwise other than your vain egoic hallucinations.

Don't flush your toilet for one week and then flush.

I despair any rational continuation of this discussion.

Namelesss wrote: ↑March 31st, 2018, 9:25 pm
Not anything that 'is' can be 'prevented'. Reality cannot be 'prevented' or altered by your vain (yeah, I know that I use that appropriate word often) 'efforts'.
Not anything that is can ever be otherwise.

I think you simply chose not to test your own hypothesis.[/quote]
Did you word it like that just to be a smartasss? I'm unimpressed, greatly!
I think that if you can find a single example to refute what I say, then I will prostrate before your Universal Knowledge and Godlike power!
One cannot test an impossibility!
Go test whether dragons can fly with their tiny purple wings, or do you simply 'choose' not to?!
Next time that you fart, change that flatus into an ice cream cone by your 'will'! Go back in time and make that 'change'.

This conversation has become an exercise in futility and absurdity, for me, anyway.
Are we done here, yet?

Namelesss wrote: ↑April 1st, 2018, 4:56 am

Umm, Gerald Pollack is a well respected professor. If that's your opinion of him after watching the video then I think you're a poor judge of character

Umm, I don't learn science from crackpots, no matter the entertainment value, or how he might validate my biases and belief infection.
I have no need to judge 'character', all I need to evaluate are his thoughts.

Michio Kaku is an entertainer/physicist, but when he starts talking about his 'magic water' responding to and changing crystalline structure because of happy and nasty words printed on a label on the bottle before freezing, we then enter the crackpot world.

EZ-Water - Fraud or breakthrough?

https://chemistry.stackexchange.com/que ... eakthrough

Read carefully through this discussion and you'll see how void it really is. The critique largely addresses ionized water and not the phenomena Gerald Pollock defines as "exclusion zone."

Namelesss wrote: ↑April 1st, 2018, 4:56 am "Recently the quack medicine folks online have been promoting the research of a certain Dr. Gerald Pollack who claims to have discovered a "forth phase of water", and who has recently published a book on the said topic.

Although it's clear that his research is being deliberately misinterpreted, it's not clear to me whether or not his own claims are valid in the first place. Although some papers on the topic were published in peer reviewed journals, it doesn't seem like anyone else in the scientific community has acknowledged or replicated his results..."

Difficult battle here for me to fight so to begin with I'll offer two published works (exhibit A and exhibit B) listed from his website and then a review of his book "the fourth phase of water."

Now, to try and explain the backlash his research is receiving I think first I should state to the best of my knowledge Gerald Pollock is not personally capitalizing from any enterprise involved in the sales of "structured water" pertaining to health. So, I see the resistance similar to the "anti" anti-vaccine campaign. It represents a paradigm shift full of economic implications.

Namelesss wrote: ↑April 1st, 2018, 5:17 am

jerlands wrote: ↑March 31st, 2018, 10:33 pm
Ok.. I dare ya. Find the darkest city alley and walk down it.

Your 'dare' is utterly irrelevant!
So far I can only see four possibilities;
1) I am incapable of elucidating my thoughts, so that you are able to understand them.
2) You are being deliberately obtuse.
3) You have no intention of even making an honest attempt to understand what I am offering (symptomatic of the ravages of a belief infection), and deliberately wasting my generous time.
4) You lack the capability of understanding.

I fully understand your position. We live in the present and have no way proving if what we do is anything other than some predetermined course.

Namelesss wrote: ↑April 1st, 2018, 5:17 am

Don't flush your toilet for one week and then flush.

I despair any rational continuation of this discussion.

I really wish you'd try at least just this one experiment.

Namelesss wrote: ↑March 31st, 2018, 9:25 pm
Not anything that 'is' can be 'prevented'. Reality cannot be 'prevented' or altered by your vain (yeah, I know that I use that appropriate word often) 'efforts'.
Not anything that is can ever be otherwise.

jerlands wrote: ↑March 31st, 2018, 10:33 pm I think you simply chose not to test your own hypothesis.

Did you word it like that just to be a smartasss? I'm unimpressed, greatly!
I think that if you can find a single example to refute what I say, then I will prostrate before your Universal Knowledge and Godlike power!
One cannot test an impossibility!
Go test whether dragons can fly with their tiny purple wings, or do you simply 'choose' not to?!
Next time that you fart, change that flatus into an ice cream cone by your 'will'! Go back in time and make that 'change'.

This conversation has become an exercise in futility and absurdity, for me, anyway.
Are we done here, yet?

Not yet. I see you as evasive and irrelevant with your flatulence and purple wings. Your attempt to justify crime as part of God's plan is very telling.

Namelesss wrote: ↑April 1st, 2018, 4:56 am Although it's clear that his research is being deliberately misinterpreted, it's not clear to me whether or not his own claims are valid in the first place. Although some papers on the topic were published in peer reviewed journals, it doesn't seem like anyone else in the scientific community has acknowledged or replicated his results..."

I wanted to address this statement independently. Why isn't anyone else pursuing interest in EZ water? The potential Gerald Pollack is following for EZ water is water filtration and power generation both of which appear to be fully patented. This more or less restricts commercial interest to work through him one way or another.

jerlands wrote: ↑April 1st, 2018, 9:02 am

Namelesss wrote: ↑April 1st, 2018, 5:17 am
Your 'dare' is utterly irrelevant!
So far I can only see four possibilities;
1) I am incapable of elucidating my thoughts, so that you are able to understand them.
2) You are being deliberately obtuse.
3) You have no intention of even making an honest attempt to understand what I am offering (symptomatic of the ravages of a belief infection), and deliberately wasting my generous time.
4) You lack the capability of understanding.

I fully understand your position. We live in the present and have no way proving if what we do is anything other than some predetermined course.

No, you don't.
A) All (t)here is is the Present, Here! Now!
B) And there is no way of ever demonstrating that one can 'change' Now! from this Now into something else. Change that stove burn moment into a peaceful nap, for instance.
Is Now! a 'predetermined course'?
If so, than all Nows are what they are, UNCHANGING!
Which is how the bible describes God, unchanging.
You must be a greater God to be able to 'change' yourself at 'will'.
Thus the sin (only sin) of Pride. *__-

Namelesss wrote: ↑March 31st, 2018, 9:25 pm Not anything that 'is' can be 'prevented'. Reality cannot be 'prevented' or altered by your vain (yeah, I know that I use that appropriate word often) 'efforts'.
Not anything that is can ever be otherwise.

Not yet. I see you as evasive and irrelevant with your flatulence and purple wings.

I see you as incapable of (or unwilling to) understanding analogy or metaphor.
So, ignore it.
(And no wonder that you are confused about the bible (remember the bible?) as it is all analogy and metaphor.)

Your attempt to justify crime as part of God's plan is very telling.

That you sit here babbling about 'God's Plan" (tm) (like you are in church, rather than having a logical discussion) to justify your sin is also very telling.
We were not talking about any 'plan'.
If your 'God' is so anthropomorphized as to be imbued with a 'plan', and there is that which has the ability to violate this 'Plan', then he must be a pretty pathetic and sadistic (not to mention infantile and petty) 'god'!
And We Are!
That is what Omni- means, ALL inclusive! *__-

(Funny how, without experience/Knowledge, we make our 'god' in our own image.)

Nameless, you think that materialism and immaterialism(idealism) cannot both be true. I think that they can both be true.

Consider the duck/rabbit and the young woman/hag psychological experiments.

Each of these is a line drawing which is open to any interpretation under the sun. It so happens that ducks, rabbits, young women, and hags are common images so we all tend to see one or the other of those images and not two headed dogs or weeping skulls. So within our accustomed range of images we can comfortably see 1. the duck and the rabbit and 2. the young woman and the hag alternately. Yet the marks on the paper don't change.

This discussion should be about how we interpret.