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Do Not Bash Muslims!

Discuss philosophical questions regarding theism (and atheism), and discuss religion as it relates to philosophy. This includes any philosophical discussions that happen to be about god, gods, or a 'higher power' or the belief of them. This also generally includes philosophical topics about organized or ritualistic mysticism or about organized, common or ritualistic beliefs in the existence of supernatural phenomenon.
Spectrum
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Do Not Bash Muslims!

Post by Spectrum » February 15th, 2018, 10:57 pm

Note;
  • 1. DNA wise ALL humans has the potential to commit evil.
    2. Conservatively appx. 20% of all humans are born with an active tendency to commit evil - the evil prone.
    3. Evil laden elements in various communicable forms will trigger the evil prone to commit evil in various degrees.
Some Muslims commit terrible evils of various degrees from genocide to petty crimes all over the world. Here is one notable statistics [note its limitations];

Image

Beside the above terrors where deaths are involved, there are reports of evils committed by Muslims [SOME] in various News and other medias.

Often the natural tendency of most is to direct attention at the evildoers/culprits and since they are Muslims. There is often a hasty generalization to blame 'Muslims' in general. In many cases retaliations are committed against innocent Muslims and even Sikhs who look like Muslims with their beard and turban.
This sort of fallacious thinking is obviously wrong.

The effective solution to any problem is to apply the generic Problem Solving Technique and the right tools for the specific problem.
In this case re terrible evils committed by SOME Muslims the effective tool is the Root Cause analysis.

From the above, the root causes re evils from Muslims would be;
  • 1. DNA wise ALL humans has the potential to commit evil.

    2. A percentile [Bell Curve] say 20% [conservatively] of all humans [thus 20% Muslims] are born with an active tendency to commit evil - the evil prone.

    3. Evil laden elements in various communicable forms [Quran and other main Islamic texts] will trigger the evil prone to commit evil in various degrees.
As I had stated, there should be no hasty generalization to blame nor bash the majority of innocent Muslims.

I state, we should not even bash the Muslim evildoers [jihadists and others] because they were unfortunately born with an active evil tendency. Instead they should be pitied. Nevertheless the Muslims evildoers must take legal accountability for their evil acts.

What is most critical is we must strive to identify the proximate cause of why SOME Muslims are triggered to commit terrible evil acts.

In general, social, cultural, economics, political, and various factors will trigger evil prone human to commit evil acts. These factors must be addressed.

In the case of Islamic-based evil acts by SOME Muslims, the critical factor is the tons of evil elements within the ideology ethos of Islam from the Quran and other main holy texts that trigger the evil prone Muslims to commit Islamic related evil acts. This is obvious when Muslim evildoers had quoted references from the Quran to justify their 'evil' acts which to them is their obligated divine duty commanded by Allah.

As often the case, whenever there are terrible acts of Islamic terrorists, the authorities and apologists will jump immediately to direct attention to the Muslims evildoers and declare Islam is the Religion of Peace! Such a mistake [or stupidity] deflect attention from dealing with the real proximate root cause, i.e. the inherent and malignant evil elements within the ideology.

As I had demonstrated above, whenever terrible evil acts [terror] are committed with reference to Islamic elements, we should not bash Muslims and even the Muslim evil doers primarily but we must focus our attention on Islam itself, the ideology and the religion.

Do Not Bash Muslims, even those Muslims who commit the terrible evils.
Not-a-theist. Religion is a critical necessity for humanity now, but not the FUTURE.

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LuckyR
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Re: Do Not Bash Muslims!

Post by LuckyR » February 16th, 2018, 3:48 am

Yeah! Same with the neoNazis, right? Of course, there might be a little overlap with the alt right. I mean SOME of them, not all.
"As usual... it depends."

Karpel Tunnel
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Re: Do Not Bash Muslims!

Post by Karpel Tunnel » February 16th, 2018, 11:46 am

Spectrum wrote:
February 15th, 2018, 10:57 pm

As I had demonstrated above, whenever terrible evil acts [terror] are committed with reference to Islamic elements, we should not bash Muslims and even the Muslim evil doers primarily but we must focus our attention on Islam itself, the ideology and the religion.

Do Not Bash Muslims, even those Muslims who commit the terrible evils.
Do people have no responsibility for their beliefs?
Who do we get to bash? If there are people we get to bash, why them and not muslims? If there is no one we should bash, why focus on Muslims?

Those of us who bash are also just following cultural and other causes. Why bash us?

Spectrum
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Re: Do Not Bash Muslims!

Post by Spectrum » February 17th, 2018, 10:37 pm

LuckyR wrote:
February 16th, 2018, 3:48 am
Yeah! Same with the neoNazis, right? Of course, there might be a little overlap with the alt right. I mean SOME of them, not all.
Yes same for all humans regardless of their affiliations, ideologies, etc.
This is a question of Morality in respecting Basic [minimal -lowest] Human Dignity.
Not-a-theist. Religion is a critical necessity for humanity now, but not the FUTURE.

Spectrum
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Re: Do Not Bash Muslims!

Post by Spectrum » February 17th, 2018, 10:45 pm

Karpel Tunnel wrote:
February 16th, 2018, 11:46 am
Spectrum wrote:
February 15th, 2018, 10:57 pm

As I had demonstrated above, whenever terrible evil acts [terror] are committed with reference to Islamic elements, we should not bash Muslims and even the Muslim evil doers primarily but we must focus our attention on Islam itself, the ideology and the religion.

Do Not Bash Muslims, even those Muslims who commit the terrible evils.
Do people have no responsibility for their beliefs?
Who do we get to bash? If there are people we get to bash, why them and not muslims? If there is no one we should bash, why focus on Muslims?

Those of us who bash are also just following cultural and other causes. Why bash us?
Note I wrote this in the OP.
I state, we should not even bash the Muslim evildoers [jihadists and others] because they were unfortunately born with an active evil tendency. Instead they should be pitied. Nevertheless the Muslims evildoers must take legal accountability for their evil acts.
Where their acts infringes the Law of the Land, they will have to answer for it and face the court.

Note I stated this above;

"Yes same [no bashing] for all humans regardless of their affiliations, ideologies, etc.
This is a question of Morality in respecting Basic [minimal -lowest] Human Dignity."

Why focus on Muslims?
This the hot topic at present where any critique of Islam is taken to be Muslims-bashing, i.e. bashing all the 1.5 or > Muslims around the world, i.e. the fallacy of hasty generalization.
I have been accused by many in many occasions here and elsewhere, where my critiques of Islam - the ideology - is taken to be an attack on Muslims.
Not-a-theist. Religion is a critical necessity for humanity now, but not the FUTURE.

Karpel Tunnel
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Re: Do Not Bash Muslims!

Post by Karpel Tunnel » February 19th, 2018, 6:49 am

Spectrum wrote:
February 17th, 2018, 10:45 pm
Note I wrote this in the OP.
I state, we should not even bash the Muslim evildoers [jihadists and others] because they were unfortunately born with an active evil tendency. Instead they should be pitied. Nevertheless the Muslims evildoers must take legal accountability for their evil acts.
Where their acts infringes the Law of the Land, they will have to answer for it and face the court.

Note I stated this above;

"Yes same [no bashing] for all humans regardless of their affiliations, ideologies, etc.
This is a question of Morality in respecting Basic [minimal -lowest] Human Dignity."
I guess I need a definition of bashing. I am certainly not for treating Muslims differently. I don't. But I am critical of anyone who I see as having an abusive (self-abusive or other-abusive belief). Obviously I am critical of Islam and the fact that this is dangerous. It is dangerous because of the belief system itself. I realize that most Muslims will not make it dangerous for me to express my opinion, however they are too sympathetic with those who do - in significant numbers - and many more feel that free speech should be limited there. The combination leads to people, for example, not mentioning that Anti-semitic acts are coupled to Islam in the West. It is taboo for the media to mention this. I do hold Muslims in general, though not as individuals, responsible for this. Of course other groups are responsible also, often in the Left, which is ironic for me being a lefty.

I have similar reactions to neo-conservatives, who I could be said to bash - let's find a definition to find out - and members of many ideologies that I think cause problems. Certain new age beliefs and believers, Christians, Buddhists - though for quite different reasons than the others - and so on.
Why focus on Muslims?
This the hot topic at present where any critique of Islam is taken to be Muslims-bashing, i.e. bashing all the 1.5 or > Muslims around the world, i.e. the fallacy of hasty generalization.
I have been accused by many in many occasions here and elsewhere, where my critiques of Islam - the ideology - is taken to be an attack on Muslims.
I think it is OK to make generalizations. Colonialization by Western nations implicated almost everyone in those cultures. It was based on pernicious ideas held in general, though benefiting westerners to varying degrees, and acted out by a much smaller minority. If you carry certain beliefs you should be free to live, be treated equally by private businesses and certainly by governments, etc. But criticisms aimed at whole groups seem to me part of the consequences of having certain beliefs.

We would have little trouble with Nazis - those of us not sympathetic to them at least - being bashed - at least in some sense of bashing.
I think many of us are critical of people addicted to plastic surgery and all the beliefs that give them this pattern. I suppose in that case since plastic surgeons are benefitting from this, I have more bile for them and less for the addicted, but I wanted to bring in a group that aims the problematic facets of its beliefs at itself. Which I think is also the case with Islam.

Spectrum
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Re: Do Not Bash Muslims!

Post by Spectrum » February 21st, 2018, 5:08 am

Karpel Tunnel wrote:
February 19th, 2018, 6:49 am
I guess I need a definition of bashing.
Note one of the meanings of 'bash' i.e.
Note this headline;
I am certainly not for treating Muslims differently. I don't. But I am critical of anyone who I see as having an abusive (self-abusive or other-abusive belief). Obviously I am critical of Islam and the fact that this is dangerous. It is dangerous because of the belief system itself. I realize that most Muslims will not make it dangerous for me to express my opinion, however they are too sympathetic with those who do - in significant numbers - and many more feel that free speech should be limited there. The combination leads to people, for example, not mentioning that Anti-semitic acts are coupled to Islam in the West. It is taboo for the media to mention this. I do hold Muslims in general, though not as individuals, responsible for this. Of course other groups are responsible also, often in the Left, which is ironic for me being a lefty.

I have similar reactions to neo-conservatives, who I could be said to bash - let's find a definition to find out - and members of many ideologies that I think cause problems. Certain new age beliefs and believers, Christians, Buddhists - though for quite different reasons than the others - and so on.
Note:
Generally the first attention to any evil or violence is often focused on the culprits who commit the evil acts. But to resolve any problem effectively one must do a root cause analysis, find and rate the ultimate, proximate and other root causes. Then attention should focused on the ultimate and proximate root causes so the problem can be resolved efficiently.

In the case of evil and violence related to Islam I have identified the following root causes, i.e.
  • 1. DNA wise, ALL humans has the potential to commit evil acts and violence.
    2. A percentile [conservatively 20%] are unfortunately born with an active tendency to commit evil acts. Thus are are 20% of evil prone Muslims.
    3. The Qu-ran the core of Islam contains loads of evil elements.
    4. The evil elements in the Qu-ran trigger the evil prone in 2 to commit terrible evils and violence.
Generally, with Islamic-related terrors and evil acts, the first attention is directed to Muslims due to hasty generalization. This is where innocent Muslims are attacked because they are Muslims. This is a fallacy and should not blame all Muslims because of the evil acts of SOME Muslims who are evil prone.

So the more accurate position is to blame those 'SOME' Muslims who are evil prone and had committed evil acts. But such a view is not effective in resolving the problems of evil acts related to Islamists.
When attention is focused on the evil prone Muslims, the critical proximate root cause i.e. evil elements in the Quran are ignored. This is what is happening at present and will be in the future, because the evil elements in the Quran [ignored] will continue to inspire evil prone Muslims to commit terrible evil acts.

I agree the evil prone Muslims who had committed evil acts on non-Muslims must be legally accountable for their evil acts in accordance to the Law of the land BUT humanity must show empathy to them because they were UNFORTUNATELY BORN [natural %] with an active evil tendency. Since this unfortunate heritage is DNA based it would be very difficult to change their conditions immediately or even in the near future.
Since it is unfortunate for the evil prone Muslims, there is not much point is bashing [severely criticize] them. So our attention must be focused on another more controllable element.

The most controllable element in the list above is 3, i.e. the evil elements in the Qu-ran.
Theoretically it is so simple, just get rid of the evil elements in the Qu-ran and there will be no more evil elements to trigger the unfortunate evil prone Muslims to commit evil.

But the problem is the Qu-ran is the immutable words of God and thus cannot be changed.
In this case, the theoretical solution is to get rid of the Qu-ran thus Islam, so that there will be no more evil elements to trigger the evil prone to commit evil acts.

So the OP point, 'Do Not Bash Muslims' will enable the focus to be directed to the proximate root cause, i.e. the evil elements in the Quran and how to resolve the proximate root cause.
I think it is OK to make generalizations. Colonialization by Western nations implicated almost everyone in those cultures. It was based on pernicious ideas held in general, though benefiting westerners to varying degrees, and acted out by a much smaller minority. If you carry certain beliefs you should be free to live, be treated equally by private businesses and certainly by governments, etc. But criticisms aimed at whole groups seem to me part of the consequences of having certain beliefs.
Since we are in a philosophical forum, the onus is on us to promote critical thinking to the majority and thus to avoid hasty generalization.

As a general principle of effective Problem Solving Technique, the rule is to focus on the critical proximate root cause, i.e. in this case the evil elements in the Qu-ran and not bashing the unfortunate Muslims who were born naturally as evil prone.
We would have little trouble with Nazis - those of us not sympathetic to them at least - being bashed - at least in some sense of bashing.
I think many of us are critical of people addicted to plastic surgery and all the beliefs that give them this pattern. I suppose in that case since plastic surgeons are benefitting from this, I have more bile for them and less for the addicted, but I wanted to bring in a group that aims the problematic facets of its beliefs at itself. Which I think is also the case with Islam.
Note in reality and the ultimate, the majority did not prosecute ALL Nazi members but merely those in the top echelons of the Nazi Party.
One can say the majority of Nazi members [with exceptions] were unfortunately born during that time and environment.
Thus the focus was on the ideology of Nazism and the top echelons of the Nazi Party.

In anything negative [actual or perceived] the general attitude of most is be critical [or bash] the people identified, e.g. as lazy, stupid, obese, addicts, etc. But to be more effective we should focus what is going on within their brain to make them end up with those negative states.
E.g. people often condemn those who suffer from extreme obesity as irresponsible, a lust for gluttony, etc. but what is really going on is, these obese giants has what is called the PWS Syndrome within their brain which they cannot control consciously. So it is wrong and unsympathetic to bash them for something they cannot control.

It is the same with extremist Muslims who commit terrible evils, it is ineffective for the majority to bash them and ignore the real proximate root cause, i.e. the evil elements in the Qu-ran.
This is where the majority of the current people of authority are STUPID in insisting IS-LAM [containing loads of evil elements] is a religion of peace!
Not-a-theist. Religion is a critical necessity for humanity now, but not the FUTURE.

Karpel Tunnel
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Re: Do Not Bash Muslims!

Post by Karpel Tunnel » February 21st, 2018, 5:34 am

A quick response, more later:
DNA is not a relevant issue. Islam is not a race, but rather an ideology. If the ideology leads to problematic outcomes in some significant way, then it makes sense to be severely critical of - which seems according to your first definition of bashing - believers. Yes, the Nazi leaders were the ones generally prosecuted. But one, prosecution is what states/governments do. I am not a state. My bashing is not equivalent to prosecution which I would fight against. I do not want any treatment by law of Muslims to differ from any other humans and would march against that. Further you go back to WW2's aftermath. I was thinking of Nazi's now. Of course Nazi's then were often forced to join, etc. Now we generally do bash Nazis - and by 'we' I mean the same people who argue for not bashing Muslims. We do this because we see problems with the ideology itself and we judge people for merely holding these beliefs. I wouldn't want them treated different by law or government or private businesses either. But I am willing to bash them. Just as I am people who run on neoconservative ideologies.

Karpel Tunnel
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Re: Do Not Bash Muslims!

Post by Karpel Tunnel » February 21st, 2018, 7:40 am

Spectrum wrote:
February 21st, 2018, 5:08 am
  • Bash = to criticize someone severely:
I can work with this definition.
In the case of evil and violence related to Islam I have identified the following root causes, i.e.
  • 1. DNA wise, ALL humans has the potential to commit evil acts and violence.
    2. A percentile [conservatively 20%] are unfortunately born with an active tendency to commit evil acts. Thus are are 20% of evil prone Muslims.
    3. The Qu-ran the core of Islam contains loads of evil elements.
    4. The evil elements in the Qu-ran trigger the evil prone in 2 to commit terrible evils and violence.
1) Again, for me DNA is irrelevant. I do not bash Arabs, for example. But I hold adults (and to a certain extent even children) responsible for ideologies they hold. 2) Islam does not only lead to violence. For example it leads to sexism, which can be and is supported with reference to the Koran. 3) Islam is self-abusive 4) Islam, like other religions which emphasize the transcendent over the material world lead to a devaluation of what is happening here and now.
Generally, with Islamic-related terrors and evil acts, the first attention is directed to Muslims due to hasty generalization. This is where innocent Muslims are attacked because they are Muslims.
Muslims innocent of crimes should not be attacked.
This is a fallacy and should not blame all Muslims because of the evil acts of SOME Muslims who are evil prone.
I don't bash all Muslims for the crimes that some Muslims commit. I bash them for their ideology, and ideology that leads to dramatic violence, but also perpetuates all sorts of less dramatic problems, including but not limited to ones I have mentioned above.
So the more accurate position is to blame those 'SOME' Muslims who are evil prone and had committed evil acts. But such a view is not effective in resolving the problems of evil acts related to Islamists.
When attention is focused on the evil prone Muslims, the critical proximate root cause i.e. evil elements in the Quran are ignored. This is what is happening at present and will be in the future, because the evil elements in the Quran [ignored] will continue to inspire evil prone Muslims to commit terrible evil acts.
I am pretty sure some bashers do include criticism of the Koran in their bashing.
I agree the evil prone Muslims who had committed evil acts on non-Muslims must be legally accountable for their evil acts in accordance to the Law of the land BUT humanity must show empathy to them because they were UNFORTUNATELY BORN [natural %] with an active evil tendency.
Assuming for the sake of argument you are correct about the nature/nurture effects, I see no reason why people must show empathy. I certainly would argue for humane incarceration and other forms of punishment, but not based on any particular believe in the inevitability of evil acts.
Since this unfortunate heritage is DNA based it would be very difficult to change their conditions immediately or even in the near future.
Since it is unfortunate for the evil prone Muslims, there is not much point is bashing [severely criticize] them. So our attention must be focused on another more controllable element.

The most controllable element in the list above is 3, i.e. the evil elements in the Qu-ran.
Theoretically it is so simple, just get rid of the evil elements in the Qu-ran and there will be no more evil elements to trigger the unfortunate evil prone Muslims to commit evil.

But the problem is the Qu-ran is the immutable words of God and thus cannot be changed.
In this case, the theoretical solution is to get rid of the Qu-ran thus Islam, so that there will be no more evil elements to trigger the evil prone to commit evil acts.
Bashing, as in severely critizing the Koran and those who believe it is the word of God and/or the perfect word of God, seems like the only democratic, free speech concerned, freedom of religion assumed approach to changing people's adherence to this text.
So the OP point, 'Do Not Bash Muslims' will enable the focus to be directed to the proximate root cause, i.e. the evil elements in the Quran and how to resolve the proximate root cause.
I can't treat people like machines and I don't think it is humane, empathetic, respectful to do so. I hold people responsible for their beliefs as I am responsible for mine. Sure, I picked up many from my culture, parents, schooling, dominant paradigms, etc. But it makes sense to confront me about them since I am letting them guide me. I am not being affected by the critiques of these and the options out there. I am open to severe criticism and I think Muslims should also be. We are not programmed computers. The criticism itself can lead to changes, perhaps slowly over decades for the individual, longer in society in general.
Since we are in a philosophical forum, the onus is on us to promote critical thinking to the majority and thus to avoid hasty generalization.
But it is not a hasty generalization. By definition a Muslim believes that the Koran is the word of God. God thinks for example that women are less valuable as witnesses, more likely to end up in hell, etc. If a Muslim says that they believe in only some parts of the Koran, then fine, they may perhaps, given the specific exceptions they make, not be targets for my criticism, but they will also not be viewed as Muslims by much of the Muslim community.
As a general principle of effective Problem Solving Technique, the rule is to focus on the critical proximate root cause, i.e. in this case the evil elements in the Qu-ran and not bashing the unfortunate Muslims who were born naturally as evil prone.
It would follow from this that no person can be severely criticized.

It is the same with extremist Muslims who commit terrible evils, it is ineffective for the majority to bash them and ignore the real proximate root cause, i.e. the evil elements in the Qu-ran.
I certainly am all for criticizing the Koran, but problems in the Koran would not matter if people did not believe in the Koran.
This is where the majority of the current people of authority are STUPID in insisting IS-LAM [containing loads of evil elements] is a religion of peace!
So you are bashing them?! They are just following their ideas, some coming from nature - trying to appease people, putting things in their best light, avoiding conflict - all potenially genetic traits - coupled with ideas - perhaps from nurture, perhaps from genetic temperment - about the best way to approach changing people. You bash them and call them stupid and hold them responsible for their beliefs, but, it seems, would consider me wrong to say that Muslims are stupid for believing in the Koran and that bad consequences flow from their belief.

It seems in the end that you see Muslims are not responsible for their beliefs, but Western Authorities as responsible for theirs. I see them all as human, and where dangerous and/or stupid, in need of bashing. There is an implicit bashing in the way you treat Muslims: these people we can never all stupid or blame for their beliefs, they are genetic machines, but we are not.

Spectrum
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Re: Do Not Bash Muslims!

Post by Spectrum » February 22nd, 2018, 1:56 am

Karpel Tunnel wrote:
February 21st, 2018, 7:40 am
Spectrum wrote:
February 21st, 2018, 5:08 am
  • Bash = to criticize someone severely:
I can work with this definition.
In the case of evil and violence related to Islam I have identified the following root causes, i.e.
  • 1. DNA wise, ALL humans has the potential to commit evil acts and violence.
    2. A percentile [conservatively 20%] are unfortunately born with an active tendency to commit evil acts. Thus are are 20% of evil prone Muslims.
    3. The Qu-ran the core of Islam contains loads of evil elements.
    4. The evil elements in the Qu-ran trigger the evil prone in 2 to commit terrible evils and violence.
1) Again, for me DNA is irrelevant.
I do not bash Arabs, for example. But I hold adults (and to a certain extent even children) responsible for ideologies they hold. 2) Islam does not only lead to violence. For example it leads to sexism, which can be and is supported with reference to the Koran. 3) Islam is self-abusive 4) Islam, like other religions which emphasize the transcendent over the material world lead to a devaluation of what is happening here and now.
DNA is very critical.
For example it is within the DNA that many types of animals kill in the most 'gruesome' [human view] to survive.
This DNA based instinct is handed down to human via evolution intact but modulated by inhibitors.
When the inhibitors are weak, SOME humans as evil prone when triggered by evil laden elements will naturally commit terrible evil acts and violence.
It is critical that we are to be aware of the above fact.

Why Islam inspire the evil prone Muslims to commit evil acts [violence, sexism, etc] is because Islam-Quran contains loads of evil laden elements.
This is a fallacy and should not blame all Muslims because of the evil acts of SOME Muslims who are evil prone.
I don't bash all Muslims for the crimes that some Muslims commit. I bash them for their ideology, and ideology that leads to dramatic violence, but also perpetuates all sorts of less dramatic problems, including but not limited to ones I have mentioned above.
In general, we always bash the culprits who committed evils.

Islamic-related evil specifically has to be an Exception.
BUT for Islamic-related evil, we MUST analyze in deeper details to track the critical proximate cause with the highest weightage. In the case of Islamic-related evils, the critical root cause are the evil laden elements in the Quran - core doctrine of Islam - that inspire SOME Muslims who are unfortunately and naturally born with an active evil tendency to commit terrible evils.

Note the theoretical test is this;
If we get rid of the evil elements in the Quran [or the Quran itself], there will be no more [ZERO] opportunity for any Muslims to justify their evil acts from the Quran - no more Islamic-related evil acts.
When there is no Quran, those [Muslims] who are born with an natural active evil tendency will commit evil acts but certainly no way it will be Islamic-related evil acts.

The purpose is to isolate the critical root cause, i.e. the evil acts are critically due to the ideology of Islam itself and not due to the minority % evil prone Muslims.

Once isolated, the authorities will be forced to take action on the Quran rather than deflecting to everything else, e.g. the evil Muslims, USA -the great Satan, poverty, politics, etc.
So the more accurate position is to blame those 'SOME' Muslims who are evil prone and had committed evil acts. But such a view is not effective in resolving the problems of evil acts related to Islamists.
When attention is focused on the evil prone Muslims, the critical proximate root cause i.e. evil elements in the Quran are ignored. This is what is happening at present and will be in the future, because the evil elements in the Quran [ignored] will continue to inspire evil prone Muslims to commit terrible evil acts.
I am pretty sure some bashers do include criticism of the Koran in their bashing.
Note my point above.

The purpose is to isolate the religion, i.e. the evil elements in the Quran as the MOST critical proximate root cause, e.g. giving it a rating of 90%.

The evil prone Muslims like the other 20% of evil prone can then be lumped up and resolve separately.
I agree the evil prone Muslims who had committed evil acts on non-Muslims must be legally accountable for their evil acts in accordance to the Law of the land BUT humanity must show empathy to them because they were UNFORTUNATELY BORN [natural %] with an active evil tendency.
Assuming for the sake of argument you are correct about the nature/nurture effects, I see no reason why people must show empathy. I certainly would argue for humane incarceration and other forms of punishment, but not based on any particular believe in the inevitability of evil acts.
We need to show empathy because they did not ask to be born with a natural evil tendency. This is where DNA is involved. It is not their fault but it is due to their inherent DNA.
The fundamental of empathy here is the morality of respecting the basic human dignity of every human being regardless of whether they are good or evil.
Obviously their inherent evil tendency is of concern and humanity must find solutions to resolve that evil tendency.
Since this unfortunate heritage is DNA based it would be very difficult to change their conditions immediately or even in the near future.
Since it is unfortunate for the evil prone Muslims, there is not much point is bashing [severely criticize] them. So our attention must be focused on another more controllable element.

The most controllable element in the list above is 3, i.e. the evil elements in the Qu-ran.
Theoretically it is so simple, just get rid of the evil elements in the Qu-ran and there will be no more evil elements to trigger the unfortunate evil prone Muslims to commit evil.

But the problem is the Qu-ran is the immutable words of God and thus cannot be changed.
In this case, the theoretical solution is to get rid of the Qu-ran thus Islam, so that there will be no more evil elements to trigger the evil prone to commit evil acts.
Bashing, as in severely criticizing the Koran and those who believe it is the word of God and/or the perfect word of God, seems like the only democratic, free speech concerned, freedom of religion assumed approach to changing people's adherence to this text.
In this particular problem of Islamic-related evils and violence, we need to isolate the critical proximate root cause.
In this case as it is currently done, focusing on the evil prone Muslims create a barrier and shield to prevent the critical proximate root cause for attention.
Like weeds, if we do not get to the critical roots, the problem will resurface continually. And as with Islam and Muslims the problem has been resurfacing and repeated continually for the last 1400 years because humanity failed to identify and deal with the proximate root cause.
So the OP point, 'Do Not Bash Muslims' will enable the focus to be directed to the proximate root cause, i.e. the evil elements in the Quran and how to resolve the proximate root cause.
I can't treat people like machines and I don't think it is humane, empathetic, respectful to do so. I hold people responsible for their beliefs as I am responsible for mine. Sure, I picked up many from my culture, parents, schooling, dominant paradigms, etc. But it makes sense to confront me about them since I am letting them guide me. I am not being affected by the critiques of these and the options out there. I am open to severe criticism and I think Muslims should also be. We are not programmed computers. The criticism itself can lead to changes, perhaps slowly over decades for the individual, longer in society in general.
As I had stated, for Islamic-related evils, it has to be an exception to ignore the human factor [at least temporarily] and to focus on the proximate root cause, i.e. the evil elements in the Quran and religion of Islam.
Since we are in a philosophical forum, the onus is on us to promote critical thinking to the majority and thus to avoid hasty generalization.
But it is not a hasty generalization. By definition a Muslim believes that the Koran is the word of God. God thinks for example that women are less valuable as witnesses, more likely to end up in hell, etc. If a Muslim says that they believe in only some parts of the Koran, then fine, they may perhaps, given the specific exceptions they make, not be targets for my criticism, but they will also not be viewed as Muslims by much of the Muslim community.
I meant it would be hasty if one were to blame all Muslims for the acts of the few.
As a general principle of effective Problem Solving Technique, the rule is to focus on the critical proximate root cause, i.e. in this case the evil elements in the Qu-ran and not bashing the unfortunate Muslims who were born naturally as evil prone.
It would follow from this that no person can be severely criticized.
Yes, in this particular case, my suggestion is we do not criticize any person at all, so that attention can be directed to the proximate root cause to resolve the major problem.
It is the same with extremist Muslims who commit terrible evils, it is ineffective for the majority to bash them and ignore the real proximate root cause, i.e. the evil elements in the Qu-ran.
I certainly am all for criticizing the Koran, but problems in the Koran would not matter if people did not believe in the Koran.
This is where the majority of the current people of authority are STUPID in insisting IS-LAM [containing loads of evil elements] is a religion of peace!
So you are bashing them?! They are just following their ideas, some coming from nature - trying to appease people, putting things in their best light, avoiding conflict - all potenially genetic traits - coupled with ideas - perhaps from nurture, perhaps from genetic temperment - about the best way to approach changing people. You bash them and call them stupid and hold them responsible for their beliefs, but, it seems, would consider me wrong to say that Muslims are stupid for believing in the Koran and that bad consequences flow from their belief.
Actually calling them stupid is not bashing but stating a fact.
That 'Islam is a religion of peace' is a falsehood!
We should not condoned lies.
Stupid [philosophically] is the incompetence in the subsumption [non-sequitor] of the major premise with the minor premise.
I understand why they are lying and are stupid, i.e. to prevent innocent Muslims from being attacked by impulsive non-Muslims. But lying in this case is not the right way.
In this particular case I am NOT applying the exception to go into the depth and proximate cause why are insisting Islam is a religion of peace.
Pointing out they are stupid in insisting a falsehood as truth, is sufficient to get to the point.
It seems in the end that you see Muslims are not responsible for their beliefs, but Western Authorities as responsible for theirs. I see them all as human, and where dangerous and/or stupid, in need of bashing. There is an implicit bashing in the way you treat Muslims: these people we can never all stupid or blame for their beliefs, they are genetic machines, but we are not.
As far as religions are concern, I do not see believers as responsible for their evil acts if those evil acts are inspired directly by their God and religious doctrines as in the case of Muslim-Islam and a very small degree with Judaism and much less with Christianity.

As for any other causes of evils we have to review the contexts and conclude accordingly.
Not-a-theist. Religion is a critical necessity for humanity now, but not the FUTURE.

Judaka
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Joined: May 2nd, 2017, 10:10 am

Re: Do Not Bash Muslims!

Post by Judaka » February 22nd, 2018, 11:09 am

The truth is that there is no such thing as "Islam", all Muslims have different interpretations, methods of worship and prioritization of concepts from each other. Islam mixes with culture, political views and socioeconomic conditions to manifest itself uniquely depending upon a litany of influences which cannot be characterised by any term. Hence you will meet all kinds of Muslims and some with legitimately benign or "benevolent" views which colour some people's perspective of Muslims and vice versa. Truthfully I don't feel the main problem of Islam is jihad, it's actually the systemic oppression of various groups in society, barbarity and anti-intellectualism which occurs as a result of some Islamic interpretations.

The problem in the West is we are taught not to judge a book by its cover but also not to judge based on race, culture, religion etc but on a purely meritocratic basis and I believe likewise. Since we can't know all Muslims and we can't criticise them due to their religion (for my reasons or others), it becomes difficult to have any meaningful discrimination which is necessary.

Mainly I believe the purpose of immigration is integration and assimilation, so anyone living in the West who doesn't practice western values is pretty much going to get "bashed". That includes white people, Christians and whoever else, I'm not going to tolerate the dilution of superior values for the sake of tolerance or pretending like any Islam has something valuable to add to Western culture.

Karpel Tunnel
Posts: 519
Joined: February 16th, 2018, 11:28 am

Re: Do Not Bash Muslims!

Post by Karpel Tunnel » February 22nd, 2018, 12:18 pm

Spectrum wrote:
February 22nd, 2018, 1:56 am

We need to show empathy because they did not ask to be born with a natural evil tendency. This is where DNA is involved. It is not their fault but it is due to their inherent DNA.
The fundamental of empathy here is the morality of respecting the basic human dignity of every human being regardless of whether they are good or evil.
Obviously their inherent evil tendency is of concern and humanity must find solutions to resolve that evil tendency.
All through what I have not quoted you keep saying what we must do. However you treat the evil people, Muslim or otherwise, as genetically determined. My reactions to evil acts are also, therefore determined. I see no reason why I must have this or that emotion in relation to evil doers. I have already say I am for humane treatment, but an evil person, is an evil person, if they are. I think it is skewed also to say they 'have' these traits, due to genes. They are people who are like that. Of course I am going to have different emotinal reactions to people who are like that. I will love some people for their traits, like others, dislike some. You cannot one the one hand tell me that it is inevitable that these people will perform evil acts WHILE AT THE SAME TIME not allowing me to have my emotional reactions, and implying they are fooling or even immoral. We are social mammals. If a person is dangerous, of course that will affect how I limbically react to them. And for good reasons.
In this particular problem of Islamic-related evils and violence, we need to isolate the critical proximate root cause.
In this case as it is currently done, focusing on the evil prone Muslims create a barrier and shield to prevent the critical proximate root cause for attention.
Nope, you can do both.
Like weeds, if we do not get to the critical roots, the problem will resurface continually. And as with Islam and Muslims the problem has been resurfacing and repeated continually for the last 1400 years because humanity failed to identify and deal with the proximate root cause.
Again, we can do both. I can react to the people and I can react to their ideology. It is a false dilemma to make it either or.

Yes, in this particular case, my suggestion is we do not criticize any person at all, so that attention can be directed to the proximate root cause to resolve the major problem.
Which makes you critical of those who react negatively emotionally and are severely critical of, in this case, Muslims. There is a hypocrisy here.
Actually calling them stupid is not bashing but stating a fact.
OK, so I can call Muslims stupid? As you called other people. That's OK, and is not bashing?
Pointing out they are stupid in insisting a falsehood as truth, is sufficient to get to the point.
Right, which would hold for Muslims believing in the KOran. Some extricate themselves. Intelligence is partly genetic. Intuition - for example, that something smells off about the KOran - is also partly genetic. Some manage to be smart and/or intuitive and extricate themselves. Those who don't are stupid. Just as neo-cons talking about trickle down ideas - in new jargon - are also stupid.
As far as religions are concern, I do not see believers as responsible for their evil acts if those evil acts are inspired directly by their God and religious doctrines as in the case of Muslim-Islam and a very small degree with Judaism and much less with Christianity.

As for any other causes of evils we have to review the contexts and conclude accordingly.
So people are nto responsible for ideology driven evil they perform? And psychopaths would also not be responsible since this also has genetic components and terrible upbringing components. INdividual not coming from a specific subculture will still have recieved ideas about themselves from parents - they are best, whatever - and they would not be responsible.

But here's the thing. I am vastly more likely to change a bad pattern if someone views me as responsible for it. If they do not condescendingly treat me like a badly programmed app who is hopeless. Social animals regulate communal behavior through emotions, humans add on all sorts of bureaucratic and medicinal and more on top of that, but I see nothing in what you say that means we need to feel this or that or not feel this or that. In fact I think it ends up being a judgment of good people. Even though your reactions, good person, and just as determined by the mileau you grew up in and your genes, you must shut them down. Muslims on the other hand, they are just machines, with no responsibility.

Spectrum
Posts: 5160
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Re: Do Not Bash Muslims!

Post by Spectrum » February 22nd, 2018, 9:11 pm

Judaka wrote:
February 22nd, 2018, 11:09 am
The truth is that there is no such thing as "Islam", all Muslims have different interpretations, methods of worship and prioritization of concepts from each other. Islam mixes with culture, political views and socioeconomic conditions to manifest itself uniquely depending upon a litany of influences which cannot be characterised by any term. Hence you will meet all kinds of Muslims and some with legitimately benign or "benevolent" views which colour some people's perspective of Muslims and vice versa. Truthfully I don't feel the main problem of Islam is jihad, it's actually the systemic oppression of various groups in society, barbarity and anti-intellectualism which occurs as a result of some Islamic interpretations.

The problem in the West is we are taught not to judge a book by its cover but also not to judge based on race, culture, religion etc but on a purely meritocratic basis and I believe likewise. Since we can't know all Muslims and we can't criticise them due to their religion (for my reasons or others), it becomes difficult to have any meaningful discrimination which is necessary.

Mainly I believe the purpose of immigration is integration and assimilation, so anyone living in the West who doesn't practice western values is pretty much going to get "bashed". That includes white people, Christians and whoever else, I'm not going to tolerate the dilution of superior values for the sake of tolerance or pretending like any Islam has something valuable to add to Western culture.
I have to say your knowledge of Islam is VERY lacking.

What is 'Islam' is defined precisely within the Quran.
Quran 5:3 [Pickthall]...
This day have I perfected your religion for you and completed My favour unto you, and have chosen for you as religion al-Islam.
...
So in contrary to your ignorance, there is a religion called Islam and its Constitution is the Quran from Allah. As commanded by Allah, the Quran is immutable.

A Muslim [as defined in the Quran] is a follower of Islam.

There is only ONE Islam as per the Quran but there are many interpretation of the Quran and that is why there are sects and schools within Islam.

The truer Muslims [the radicals] are those who conform with the most verses and commands of Allah in the Quran. The majority of 'moderate' Muslims cherry pick and twist the more humane verses and comply with lesser terms of Islam.
Truthfully I don't feel the main problem of Islam is jihad, it's actually the systemic oppression of various groups in society, barbarity and anti-intellectualism which occurs as a result of some Islamic interpretations.
The actual meaning of 'jihad' in the Quran is 'striving' but the term 'jihad' had been bastardized as 'holy war' because 'warring' dominate the ethos of Islam.

Where 'jihad' = holy war, this a very serious threat to humanity because there is a possibility, Islam could inspire SOME Muslims to exterminate the human species if as and when they get access to easily available WMDs.

The systemic oppression of various groups in society, barbarity and anti-intellectualism is not due to 'some' Islamic interpretations rather these [and warring] are the mainstay drives of the ethos of Islam which are explicit from the 6,236 verses of the Quran. .
Not-a-theist. Religion is a critical necessity for humanity now, but not the FUTURE.

Spectrum
Posts: 5160
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Re: Do Not Bash Muslims!

Post by Spectrum » February 22nd, 2018, 10:05 pm

Karpel Tunnel wrote:
February 22nd, 2018, 12:18 pm
Spectrum wrote:
February 22nd, 2018, 1:56 am

We need to show empathy because they did not ask to be born with a natural evil tendency. This is where DNA is involved. It is not their fault but it is due to their inherent DNA.
The fundamental of empathy here is the morality of respecting the basic human dignity of every human being regardless of whether they are good or evil.
Obviously their inherent evil tendency is of concern and humanity must find solutions to resolve that evil tendency.
All through what I have not quoted you keep saying what we must do. However you treat the evil people, Muslim or otherwise, as genetically determined. My reactions to evil acts are also, therefore determined. I see no reason why I must have this or that emotion in relation to evil doers. I have already say I am for humane treatment, but an evil person, is an evil person, if they are. I think it is skewed also to say they 'have' these traits, due to genes. They are people who are like that. Of course I am going to have different emotional reactions to people who are like that. I will love some people for their traits, like others, dislike some. You cannot one the one hand tell me that it is inevitable that these people will perform evil acts WHILE AT THE SAME TIME not allowing me to have my emotional reactions, and implying they are fooling or even immoral. We are social mammals. If a person is dangerous, of course that will affect how I limbically react to them. And for good reasons.
Depending on contexts one has to have higher emotional intelligence to modulate their emotions optimally.

Note my often quoted from Aristotle re anger but applicable to all emotions;
  • Anybody can become angry - that is easy, but to be angry with the right person and to the right degree and at the right time and for the right purpose, and in the right way - that is not within everybody's power and is not easy. - Aristotle
In the contexts of Islamic-related evils in the present situation, it is most optimal to avoid bashing Muslims so that attention will be directed 100% on the ideology.

To be wiser person, thus I suggest you apply the right degree of emotions to avoid bashing Muslims even the evil ones.

Let the Law of the Land and authorities deal with the evil prones Muslims who had committed Islamic related evil acts and other crimes.
In this particular problem of Islamic-related evils and violence, we need to isolate the critical proximate root cause.
In this case as it is currently done, focusing on the evil prone Muslims create a barrier and shield to prevent the critical proximate root cause for attention.
Nope, you can do both.
Like weeds, if we do not get to the critical roots, the problem will resurface continually. And as with Islam and Muslims the problem has been resurfacing and repeated continually for the last 1400 years because humanity failed to identify and deal with the proximate root cause.
Again, we can do both. I can react to the people and I can react to their ideology. It is a false dilemma to make it either or.
I suggest you take note of emotional intelligence and do what is optimal in this particular case.

Yes, in this particular case, my suggestion is we do not criticize any person at all, so that attention can be directed to the proximate root cause to resolve the major problem.
Which makes you critical of those who react negatively emotionally and are severely critical of, in this case, Muslims. There is a hypocrisy here.
I had stated, taking into account all the relevant variables, this is the optimal action.
OK, so I can call Muslims stupid? As you called other people. That's OK, and is not bashing?
Right, which would hold for Muslims believing in the KOran. Some extricate themselves. Intelligence is partly genetic. Intuition - for example, that something smells off about the KOran - is also partly genetic. Some manage to be smart and/or intuitive and extricate themselves. Those who don't are stupid. Just as neo-cons talking about trickle down ideas - in new jargon - are also stupid.
You can call anyone stupid [philosophically not derogatorily] if their actions fit the definition of 'what is stupid.' I would say the moderate Muslims are 'stupid' in twisting the real intentions of the Quran and not following what the Quran commanded them to do. I would not call the radical [- of or going to the root or origin; fundamental:] Muslims stupid, for they are truer Muslims than the moderates.
Bashing Muslims is when one link the religion to the believers in a derogatory way, e.g. saying Muslims condoned pedophile because their founder is a pedophile, their religion condone beating women, etc.
So people are not responsible for ideology driven evil they perform? And psychopaths would also not be responsible since this also has genetic components and terrible upbringing components. INdividual not coming from a specific subculture will still have recieved ideas about themselves from parents - they are best, whatever - and they would not be responsible.
Note there are two perspectives to be considered here.

First, I have stated many times, those who commit evil must be accountable and responsible for the evil acts they have committed, to the Laws of the Land.
Re psychopaths, it depend on the degree of psychopathy as confirmed by experts.
If a person is a confirmed mental case, a court would generally treat them differently in term of their responsibility to the crime, e.g. avoid death penalty in contrast to a guilty normal person who has to face the death penalty for the same crime.

Second, from another perspective of the 'Constitution' involved;
Just like a soldier is not responsible for killing during a declared war based on some Constitution, a Muslim who killed in compliance with what is commanded in his holy texts [Constitution] is not responsible [in this sense] for the evil act.
In this case the critical attention should be directed at the Constitution and not stop at the persons.
But here's the thing. I am vastly more likely to change a bad pattern if someone views me as responsible for it. If they do not condescendingly treat me like a badly programmed app who is hopeless. Social animals regulate communal behavior through emotions, humans add on all sorts of bureaucratic and medicinal and more on top of that, but I see nothing in what you say that means we need to feel this or that or not feel this or that. In fact I think it ends up being a judgment of good people. Even though your reactions, good person, and just as determined by the mileau you grew up in and your genes, you must shut them down. Muslims on the other hand, they are just machines, with no responsibility.
Note my point in dealing with this problem within two perspectives above.
If there is a crime then the person must be accountable accordingly to the Laws of the Land.
While we let the laws deal with the crimes, we should look deeper to find the proximate 'blame' i.e. the proximate root cause that trigger those evil prone Muslims to commit the terrible evils and violence.

The reality of the present is, the majority are putting the blame on the evil prone Muslims and the authorities attention is almost 100% focused on catching and preventing these evil prone Muslims from committing evil acts while Zero % [almost] blame and attention are directed at the religion of Islam.

At present all [not aware of exceptions] those in authorities are declaring 'Islam is a religion of Peace.'
Can you show me which official government has single out Islam the religion itself as the main or at least a cause of Islamic-related evils and violence?
Not-a-theist. Religion is a critical necessity for humanity now, but not the FUTURE.

Judaka
Posts: 235
Joined: May 2nd, 2017, 10:10 am

Re: Do Not Bash Muslims!

Post by Judaka » February 23rd, 2018, 4:51 am

I have to say your knowledge of Islam is VERY lacking.

What is 'Islam' is defined precisely within the Quran.
Spectrum given that I know you are not here to have real debates I won't go further but there are dozens of Islam sects, Islamic Scholars and in general Muslims who believe very different things. You are arguing against common sense and the observable truth, but I'll leave you and your ignorance alone.

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