Karpel Tunnel wrote: ↑
February 21st, 2018, 7:40 am
Spectrum wrote: ↑
February 21st, 2018, 5:08 am
- Bash = to criticize someone severely:
I can work with this definition.
In the case of evil and violence related to Islam I have identified the following root causes, i.e.
- 1. DNA wise, ALL humans has the potential to commit evil acts and violence.
2. A percentile [conservatively 20%] are unfortunately born with an active tendency to commit evil acts. Thus are are 20% of evil prone Muslims.
3. The Qu-ran the core of Islam contains loads of evil elements.
4. The evil elements in the Qu-ran trigger the evil prone in 2 to commit terrible evils and violence.
1) Again, for me DNA is irrelevant.
I do not bash Arabs, for example. But I hold adults (and to a certain extent even children) responsible for ideologies they hold. 2) Islam does not only lead to violence. For example it leads to sexism, which can be and is supported with reference to the Koran. 3) Islam is self-abusive 4) Islam, like other religions which emphasize the transcendent over the material world lead to a devaluation of what is happening here and now.
DNA is very critical.
For example it is within the DNA that many types of animals kill in the most 'gruesome' [human view] to survive.
This DNA based instinct is handed down to human via evolution intact
but modulated by inhibitors.
When the inhibitors are weak, SOME humans as evil prone when triggered by evil laden elements will naturally commit terrible evil acts and violence.
It is critical that we are to be aware of the above fact.
Why Islam inspire the evil prone Muslims to commit evil acts [violence, sexism, etc] is because Islam-Quran contains loads of evil laden elements.
This is a fallacy and should not blame all Muslims because of the evil acts of SOME Muslims who are evil prone.
I don't bash all Muslims for the crimes that some Muslims commit. I bash them for their ideology, and ideology that leads to dramatic violence, but also perpetuates all sorts of less dramatic problems, including but not limited to ones I have mentioned above.
In general, we always bash the culprits who committed evils.
Islamic-related evil specifically has to be an Exception.
BUT for Islamic-related evil, we MUST analyze in deeper details to track the critical proximate cause with the highest weightage. In the case of Islamic-related evils, the critical root cause are the evil laden elements in the Quran - core doctrine of Islam - that inspire SOME Muslims who are unfortunately and naturally born with an active evil tendency to commit terrible evils.
Note the theoretical test is this;
If we get rid of the evil elements in the Quran [or the Quran itself], there will be no more [ZERO] opportunity for any Muslims to justify their evil acts from the Quran - no more Islamic-related evil acts.
When there is no Quran, those [Muslims] who are born with an natural active evil tendency will commit evil acts but certainly no way it will be Islamic-related evil acts.
The purpose is to isolate the critical root cause, i.e. the evil acts are critically due to the ideology of Islam itself and not due to the minority % evil prone Muslims.
Once isolated, the authorities will be forced to take action on the Quran rather than deflecting to everything else, e.g. the evil Muslims, USA -the great Satan, poverty, politics, etc.
So the more accurate position is to blame those 'SOME' Muslims who are evil prone and had committed evil acts. But such a view is not effective in resolving the problems of evil acts related to Islamists.
When attention is focused on the evil prone Muslims, the critical proximate root cause i.e. evil elements in the Quran are ignored. This is what is happening at present and will be in the future, because the evil elements in the Quran [ignored] will continue to inspire evil prone Muslims to commit terrible evil acts.
I am pretty sure some bashers do include criticism of the Koran in their bashing.
Note my point above.
The purpose is to isolate the religion, i.e. the evil elements in the Quran as the MOST critical proximate root cause, e.g. giving it a rating of 90%.
The evil prone Muslims like the other 20% of evil prone can then be lumped up and resolve separately.
I agree the evil prone Muslims who had committed evil acts on non-Muslims must be legally accountable for their evil acts in accordance to the Law of the land BUT humanity must show empathy to them because they were UNFORTUNATELY BORN [natural %] with an active evil tendency.
Assuming for the sake of argument you are correct about the nature/nurture effects, I see no reason why people must show empathy. I certainly would argue for humane incarceration and other forms of punishment, but not based on any particular believe in the inevitability of evil acts.
We need to show empathy because they did not ask to be born with a natural evil tendency. This is where DNA is involved. It is not their fault but it is due to their inherent DNA.
The fundamental of empathy here is the morality of respecting the basic human dignity of every human being regardless of whether they are good or evil.
Obviously their inherent evil tendency is of concern and humanity must find solutions to resolve that evil tendency.
Since this unfortunate heritage is DNA based it would be very difficult to change their conditions immediately or even in the near future.
Since it is unfortunate for the evil prone Muslims, there is not much point is bashing [severely criticize] them. So our attention must be focused on another more controllable element.
The most controllable element in the list above is 3, i.e. the evil elements in the Qu-ran.
Theoretically it is so simple, just get rid of the evil elements in the Qu-ran and there will be no more evil elements to trigger the unfortunate evil prone Muslims to commit evil.
But the problem is the Qu-ran is the immutable words of God and thus cannot be changed.
In this case, the theoretical solution is to get rid of the Qu-ran thus Islam, so that there will be no more evil elements to trigger the evil prone to commit evil acts.
Bashing, as in severely criticizing the Koran and those who believe it is the word of God and/or the perfect word of God, seems like the only democratic, free speech concerned, freedom of religion assumed approach to changing people's adherence to this text.
In this particular problem of Islamic-related evils and violence, we need to isolate the critical proximate root cause.
In this case as it is currently done, focusing on the evil prone Muslims create a barrier and shield to prevent the critical proximate root cause for attention.
Like weeds, if we do not get to the critical roots, the problem will resurface continually. And as with Islam and Muslims the problem has been resurfacing and repeated continually for the last 1400 years because humanity failed to identify and deal with the proximate root cause.
So the OP point, 'Do Not Bash Muslims' will enable the focus to be directed to the proximate root cause, i.e. the evil elements in the Quran and how to resolve the proximate root cause.
I can't treat people like machines and I don't think it is humane, empathetic, respectful to do so. I hold people responsible for their beliefs as I am responsible for mine. Sure, I picked up many from my culture, parents, schooling, dominant paradigms, etc. But it makes sense to confront me about them since I am letting them guide me. I am not being affected by the critiques of these and the options out there. I am open to severe criticism and I think Muslims should also be. We are not programmed computers. The criticism itself can lead to changes, perhaps slowly over decades for the individual, longer in society in general.
As I had stated, for Islamic-related evils, it has to be an exception to ignore the human factor [at least temporarily] and to focus on the proximate root cause, i.e. the evil elements in the Quran and religion of Islam.
Since we are in a philosophical forum, the onus is on us to promote critical thinking to the majority and thus to avoid hasty generalization.
But it is not a hasty generalization. By definition a Muslim believes that the Koran is the word of God. God thinks for example that women are less valuable as witnesses, more likely to end up in hell, etc. If a Muslim says that they believe in only some parts of the Koran, then fine, they may perhaps, given the specific exceptions they make, not be targets for my criticism, but they will also not be viewed as Muslims by much of the Muslim community.
I meant it would be hasty if one were to blame all Muslims for the acts of the few.
As a general principle of effective Problem Solving Technique, the rule is to focus on the critical proximate root cause, i.e. in this case the evil elements in the Qu-ran and not bashing the unfortunate Muslims who were born naturally as evil prone.
It would follow from this that no person can be severely criticized.
Yes, in this particular case, my suggestion is we do not criticize any person at all, so that attention can be directed to the proximate root cause to resolve the major problem.
It is the same with extremist Muslims who commit terrible evils, it is ineffective for the majority to bash them and ignore the real proximate root cause, i.e. the evil elements in the Qu-ran.
I certainly am all for criticizing the Koran, but problems in the Koran would not matter if people did not believe in the Koran.
This is where the majority of the current people of authority are STUPID in insisting IS-LAM [containing loads of evil elements] is a religion of peace!
So you are bashing them?! They are just following their ideas, some coming from nature - trying to appease people, putting things in their best light, avoiding conflict - all potenially genetic traits - coupled with ideas - perhaps from nurture, perhaps from genetic temperment - about the best way to approach changing people. You bash them and call them stupid and hold them responsible for their beliefs, but, it seems, would consider me wrong to say that Muslims are stupid for believing in the Koran and that bad consequences flow from their belief.
Actually calling them stupid is not bashing but stating a fact.
That 'Islam is a religion of peace' is a falsehood!
We should not condoned lies.
Stupid [philosophically] is the incompetence in the subsumption [non-sequitor] of the major premise with the minor premise.
I understand why they are lying and are stupid, i.e. to prevent innocent Muslims from being attacked by impulsive non-Muslims. But lying in this case is not the right way.
In this particular case I am NOT applying the exception to go into the depth and proximate cause why are insisting Islam is a religion of peace.
Pointing out they are stupid in insisting a falsehood as truth, is sufficient to get to the point.
It seems in the end that you see Muslims are not responsible for their beliefs, but Western Authorities as responsible for theirs. I see them all as human, and where dangerous and/or stupid, in need of bashing. There is an implicit bashing in the way you treat Muslims: these people we can never all stupid or blame for their beliefs, they are genetic machines, but we are not.
As far as religions are concern, I do not see believers as responsible for their evil acts if those evil acts are inspired directly by their God and religious doctrines as in the case of Muslim-Islam and a very small degree with Judaism and much less with Christianity.
As for any other causes of evils we have to review the contexts and conclude accordingly.
Not-a-theist. Religion is a critical necessity for humanity now, but not the FUTURE.