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Who Is God?

Discuss philosophical questions regarding theism (and atheism), and discuss religion as it relates to philosophy. This includes any philosophical discussions that happen to be about god, gods, or a 'higher power' or the belief of them. This also generally includes philosophical topics about organized or ritualistic mysticism or about organized, common or ritualistic beliefs in the existence of supernatural phenomenon.
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TigerNinja
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Who Is God?

Post by TigerNinja » February 28th, 2018, 6:21 pm

God. I have strayed into controversial grounds here. Many religions have varying interpretations of God. The Abrahamic religions all portray him as an omnipotent, transcendent being (I can't really say omnibenevolent noting in one it says "All ye who do not follow Allah, smite them above their necks", in another it says that God flooded a group of Egyptians chasing Moses and that "You shall not lie with man as you do with is woman for it is a most despicable sin" and I do not know enough about Judaism to make any educated claims on it). But who is He, as an individual entity. In quite a few religions, he is portrayed as male.

The question is less who is he, and more what is he. Islam has the understandable rule of not being allowed to portray Allah in imagery. Most of the time however (In Abrahamic religions) he is portrayed as a male figure with a beard in the sky. In Eastern polytheistic religions, Gods are composed of animals and are more abstract. Personally, I prefer this approach, and although I am atheist, I find that usually in Abrahamic religious imagery, they anthropomorphise God. In what religious text (I'm not being sarcastic; this is an honest question) is God specifically said to be a man with a beard, in the sky. In the sky is rational, due to Heaven supposedly being in the sky. I don't like anthropomorphism in a God, as that was one of my 'deal-breakers' with theistic religions. God/gods were always portrayed as a being composed of, or simply a transcendent form of a regular animal on Earth. They were always composed of Earthly creatures. Humans can't comprehend anything beyond it as that is all we have been exposed to in our whole lives, but despite that, at least do what Sikhs do and say that he has no form. So, all in all, who and what is God in your opinion.
"All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident." ~ Arthur Schopenhauer

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jerlands
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Re: Who Is God?

Post by jerlands » February 28th, 2018, 6:35 pm

TigerNinja wrote:
February 28th, 2018, 6:21 pm
So, all in all, who and what is God in your opinion.
God is said to be the singular creative force, the cause, the reason for creation and that reason is yet understood.
"It ain't what you don't know that gets you into trouble. It's what you know for sure that just ain't so." - Mark Twain

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TigerNinja
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Re: Who Is God?

Post by TigerNinja » February 28th, 2018, 6:42 pm

jerlands wrote:
February 28th, 2018, 6:35 pm
TigerNinja wrote:
February 28th, 2018, 6:21 pm
So, all in all, who and what is God in your opinion.
God is said to be the singular creative force, the cause, the reason for creation and that reason is yet understood.
I agree with that in the sense of the use of a force that is single yet omnipresent and that is also that which cannot be understood. The ambiguity means that the definition of God is not something which can simply be explained in simple terms of x and y, which makes it a more tempting prospect to follow while all the while being so much less tempting due to the ambiguity which gives it the allure (Ironic, contradictory and confusing, I know).
"All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident." ~ Arthur Schopenhauer

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jerlands
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Re: Who Is God?

Post by jerlands » February 28th, 2018, 7:02 pm

TigerNinja wrote:
February 28th, 2018, 6:42 pm
jerlands wrote:
February 28th, 2018, 6:35 pm

God is said to be the singular creative force, the cause, the reason for creation and that reason is yet understood.
I agree with that in the sense of the use of a force that is single yet omnipresent and that is also that which cannot be understood. The ambiguity means that the definition of God is not something which can simply be explained in simple terms of x and y, which makes it a more tempting prospect to follow while all the while being so much less tempting due to the ambiguity which gives it the allure (Ironic, contradictory and confusing, I know).
I don't know, which makes for the journey. The only "God" that is said to exist is the "God" mentioned in the Bible. The problem with that notion is there is evidence the Bible is composite from many sources. Also, the notion of "God" isn't unique to the Bible but existed in Egypt as the creative force Ptah. So.. Along with the question of "God" we have the question of what the Bible actually is. Is this a path to salvation or a path to destruction? Either way I believe the sheer existence of the Bible is evidence of "God's" existence.
.
"It ain't what you don't know that gets you into trouble. It's what you know for sure that just ain't so." - Mark Twain

Spectrum
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Re: Who Is God?

Post by Spectrum » February 28th, 2018, 11:40 pm

Note my default position and argument here;
God is an Impossibility
http://www.ilovephilosophy.com/viewtopi ... 5&t=193474

The idea [not concept] is a psychological manifestation in the mind of theists to soothe the inherent unavoidable existential crisis.
Not-a-theist. Religion is a critical necessity for humanity now, but not the FUTURE.

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jerlands
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Re: Who Is God?

Post by jerlands » February 28th, 2018, 11:51 pm

Spectrum wrote:
February 28th, 2018, 11:40 pm
Note my default position and argument here;
God is an Impossibility
http://www.ilovephilosophy.com/viewtopi ... 5&t=193474

The idea [not concept] is a psychological manifestation in the mind of theists to soothe the inherent unavoidable existential crisis.
The argument seems to be based solely on the notion of perfection? Also, a concept is an abstract idea.
"It ain't what you don't know that gets you into trouble. It's what you know for sure that just ain't so." - Mark Twain

Spectrum
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Re: Who Is God?

Post by Spectrum » March 1st, 2018, 12:05 am

jerlands wrote:
February 28th, 2018, 11:51 pm
Spectrum wrote:
February 28th, 2018, 11:40 pm
Note my default position and argument here;
God is an Impossibility
http://www.ilovephilosophy.com/viewtopi ... 5&t=193474

The idea [not concept] is a psychological manifestation in the mind of theists to soothe the inherent unavoidable existential crisis.
The argument seems to be based solely on the notion of perfection? Also, a concept is an abstract idea.
Note merely 'perfection' but it hinges on the necessity that an idea of God MUST be absolutely perfect.

There is a need to differentiate between what is empirically possible and what is empirically impossible.
For precision sake there is a difference between an idea and a concept.

A concept [philosophical] is conceptualize by the intellect using elements that are directly empirical or empirically possible.

An idea [philosophical] is a thought that is idealized based on elements that are NOT empirical nor empirically possible.
Not-a-theist. Religion is a critical necessity for humanity now, but not the FUTURE.

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jerlands
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Re: Who Is God?

Post by jerlands » March 1st, 2018, 12:44 am

Spectrum wrote:
March 1st, 2018, 12:05 am
jerlands wrote:
February 28th, 2018, 11:51 pm

The argument seems to be based solely on the notion of perfection? Also, a concept is an abstract idea.
Note merely 'perfection' but it hinges on the necessity that an idea of God MUST be absolutely perfect.
So why must "God" be absolutely perfect?
Spectrum wrote:
March 1st, 2018, 12:05 am
There is a need to differentiate between what is empirically possible and what is empirically impossible.
For precision sake there is a difference between an idea and a concept.

A concept [philosophical] is conceptualize by the intellect using elements that are directly empirical or empirically possible.

An idea [philosophical] is a thought that is idealized based on elements that are NOT empirical nor empirically possible.
An idea [philosophical] CAN be can be constructed thru abstract concepts.
.
"It ain't what you don't know that gets you into trouble. It's what you know for sure that just ain't so." - Mark Twain

Spectrum
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Re: Who Is God?

Post by Spectrum » March 1st, 2018, 1:18 am

jerlands wrote:
March 1st, 2018, 12:44 am
Spectrum wrote:
March 1st, 2018, 12:05 am
Note merely 'perfection' but it hinges on the necessity that an idea of God MUST be absolutely perfect.
So why must "God" be absolutely perfect?
I have given reasons within that thread.

Note this;
http://onlinephilosophyclub.com/forums/ ... 31#p305331
I understand human believe in all sorts of God [inferior, superior, perfect, not perfect, immutable, etc.] but as I had explained and justified, a God by default MUST be an 'absolutely perfect being' so that it does not end up eating the sh1t of another greater God.
Any theist who is made aware of this limitation of their God will definitely opt for the ontological God -an absolutely perfect being - [than which no greater exists] since it is as easy as just a shifting of thoughts to a more secured ideas.
I have explained in greater details in earlier posts.

An idea [philosophical] CAN be can be constructed thru abstract concepts.
.
The are many definitions of what is an 'idea' within that wiki link.

The one I relied upon therein is the one from Kant;
Immanuel Kant defines an 'idea' as opposed to a 'concept'. "Regulative ideas" are ideals that one must tend towards, but by definition may not be completely realized. Liberty, according to Kant, is an idea. The autonomy of the rational and universal subject is opposed to the determinism of the empirical subject.[20] Kant felt that it is precisely in knowing its limits that philosophy exists. The business of philosophy he thought was not to give rules, but to analyze the private judgements of good common sense.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Idea#Immanuel_Kant
Note I am not insisting Kant's definition of idea is THE definition.
Since there is no absolute permanent meaning, so when we used the term idea, it is a matter of the proposed definition to be used and to be agreed by parties involved.
Not-a-theist. Religion is a critical necessity for humanity now, but not the FUTURE.

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jerlands
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Re: Who Is God?

Post by jerlands » March 1st, 2018, 1:38 am

Spectrum wrote:
March 1st, 2018, 1:18 am
jerlands wrote:
March 1st, 2018, 12:44 am

So why must "God" be absolutely perfect?
I have given reasons within that thread.

Note this;
http://onlinephilosophyclub.com/forums/ ... 31#p305331
I understand human believe in all sorts of God [inferior, superior, perfect, not perfect, immutable, etc.] but as I had explained and justified, a God by default MUST be an 'absolutely perfect being' so that it does not end up eating the sh1t of another greater God.
Any theist who is made aware of this limitation of their God will definitely opt for the ontological God -an absolutely perfect being - [than which no greater exists] since it is as easy as just a shifting of thoughts to a more secured ideas.
I have explained in greater details in earlier posts.

Since there is no absolute permanent meaning, so when we used the term idea, it is a matter of the proposed definition to be used and to be agreed by parties involved.
Ok.. so I see issues. The first is the notion of perfection. My understanding of perfection is 'completeness' and if I ride with that I perceive the universe as complete possibly except for my understanding. The second is the notion of other gods. If there is only one "God" (being the creator) then anything else is either part of this "God" or a reflection of.
.
"It ain't what you don't know that gets you into trouble. It's what you know for sure that just ain't so." - Mark Twain

Spectrum
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Re: Who Is God?

Post by Spectrum » March 1st, 2018, 2:18 am

jerlands wrote:
March 1st, 2018, 1:38 am

Ok.. so I see issues. The first is the notion of perfection. My understanding of perfection is 'completeness' and if I ride with that I perceive the universe as complete possibly except for my understanding. The second is the notion of other gods. If there is only one "God" (being the creator) then anything else is either part of this "God" or a reflection of.
.
Note it is not merely 'perfection' but absolute perfection, i.e. an absolutely perfect God - the ontological God which is, a God than which no greater exists.

The Islamic God proclaimed itself in the Quran as an ontological God, i.e. an absolutely perfect God than which no greater exists - Allah-u-Akbar.
The Quran also claims the God reflected in the Bible and NT [& other gods] is a corrupted and inferior God, thus has to be subservient to Allah.

If you are a Christian, would you accept that?
No normal and 'rational' Christian would accept that.

Theologians like St. Anselm, Descartes and others also claim the Christian God is an ontological God, i.e. a God than which no greater exists.
In this case, the Christian God will be on par with the Islamic God and neither will be inferior to the other.

Similarly all rational theists will identify their God as an absolutely perfect God, i.e. a God than which no greater exists. Even if they are polytheists, they will have one overriding ontological God who lord over the other lesser gods.

There are a minority who believe in lesser gods and deities due to ignorance or for whatever reasons they accept their god[s] to be inferior.

But the ultimate is God per se Must be an ontological God, i.e. an absolutely perfect God than which no greater can exists.
Not-a-theist. Religion is a critical necessity for humanity now, but not the FUTURE.

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jerlands
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Re: Who Is God?

Post by jerlands » March 1st, 2018, 3:32 am

Spectrum wrote:
March 1st, 2018, 2:18 am
jerlands wrote:
March 1st, 2018, 1:38 am
Ok.. so I see issues. The first is the notion of perfection. My understanding of perfection is 'completeness' and if I ride with that I perceive the universe as complete possibly except for my understanding. The second is the notion of other gods. If there is only one "God" (being the creator) then anything else is either part of this "God" or a reflection of.
.
Note it is not merely 'perfection' but absolute perfection, i.e. an absolutely perfect God - the ontological God which is, a God than which no greater exists.
So who is it that's imposing 'absolute perfection' on "God?" No matter.. isn't the notion of absolute perfection equivalent to absolute completeness?
What is it in creation that's lacking?
Spectrum wrote:
March 1st, 2018, 2:18 am
The Islamic God proclaimed itself in the Quran as an ontological God, i.e. an absolutely perfect God than which no greater exists - Allah-u-Akbar.
The Quran also claims the God reflected in the Bible and NT [& other gods] is a corrupted and inferior God, thus has to be subservient to Allah.
Where in the Quran does it proclaim a different "God" than the "God" of Abraham? It doesn't. Aside from that... "God's" attributes are described through his name and I think the Quran has 99 names for "God" and the Bible has 18 or so names for "God". The point however is the name of "God" is understood in context. Both teachings declare One (1) God.
Spectrum wrote:
March 1st, 2018, 2:18 am
If you are a Christian, would you accept that?
No normal and 'rational' Christian would accept that.
What you've conjured up no, is not acceptable.
Spectrum wrote:
March 1st, 2018, 2:18 am
Theologians like St. Anselm, Descartes and others also claim the Christian God is an ontological God, i.e. a God than which no greater exists.
In this case, the Christian God will be on par with the Islamic God and neither will be inferior to the other.
This is illogic since there is not declaration of a different "God" in the Quran. The teaching apparently given to Muhammad is a teaching for Islam and I think that an important note.
.
Spectrum wrote:
March 1st, 2018, 2:18 am
Similarly all rational theists will identify their God as an absolutely perfect God, i.e. a God than which no greater exists. Even if they are polytheists, they will have one overriding ontological God who lord over the other lesser gods.

There are a minority who believe in lesser gods and deities due to ignorance or for whatever reasons they accept their god[s] to be inferior.

But the ultimate is God per se Must be an ontological God, i.e. an absolutely perfect God than which no greater can exists.
You do realize the Bible is complicated composite using what appears to be from a number of sources? The Biblical "God" seems to have arisen from the Egyptian conception Ptah and the relationship with Egypt in the Bible is very profound.
.
"It ain't what you don't know that gets you into trouble. It's what you know for sure that just ain't so." - Mark Twain

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jerlands
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Re: Who Is God?

Post by jerlands » March 1st, 2018, 3:49 am

Also, here's a "scholarly philosophical" reflection on the perfection of "God."
"It ain't what you don't know that gets you into trouble. It's what you know for sure that just ain't so." - Mark Twain

Eduk
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Re: Who Is God?

Post by Eduk » March 1st, 2018, 3:00 pm

TigerNinja God, by necessity, is undefined.
Unknown means unknown.

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Count Lucanor
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Re: Who Is God?

Post by Count Lucanor » March 1st, 2018, 3:23 pm

The compendium of all fantasies?

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