I've dealt with Spectrum before. He's under the illusion that if theism can be reduced to psychological angst it would undermine belief in God. Nonsense, of course, but he's quite obsessive about it.
What is Theism Reducible to?
-
- Posts: 1366
- Joined: August 18th, 2016, 11:29 am
- Favorite Philosopher: Paul Tillich
Re: What is Theism Reducible to?
- Papus79
- Posts: 1800
- Joined: February 19th, 2017, 6:59 pm
Re: What is Theism Reducible to?
- LuckyR
- Moderator
- Posts: 7987
- Joined: January 18th, 2015, 1:16 am
Re: What is Theism Reducible to?
I agree with you that using logic to reduce folks' "belief" in gods is a fool's errand. Though there are many flaws in the strategy, likely the most practical is that a large number of the religious go through the motions out of habit, without much thought.Dark Matter wrote: ↑December 15th, 2018, 4:34 amI've dealt with Spectrum before. He's under the illusion that if theism can be reduced to psychological angst it would undermine belief in God. Nonsense, of course, but he's quite obsessive about it.
-
- Posts: 1366
- Joined: August 18th, 2016, 11:29 am
- Favorite Philosopher: Paul Tillich
Re: What is Theism Reducible to?
True enough, but anyone who thinks theism is reducible to existential angst and cultural habit alone is laughably naive.LuckyR wrote: ↑December 15th, 2018, 2:42 pmI agree with you that using logic to reduce folks' "belief" in gods is a fool's errand. Though there are many flaws in the strategy, likely the most practical is that a large number of the religious go through the motions out of habit, without much thought.Dark Matter wrote: ↑December 15th, 2018, 4:34 am
I've dealt with Spectrum before. He's under the illusion that if theism can be reduced to psychological angst it would undermine belief in God. Nonsense, of course, but he's quite obsessive about it.
-
- Moderator
- Posts: 6105
- Joined: September 11th, 2016, 2:11 pm
Re: What is Theism Reducible to?
Then God has a history. "What is Theism Reducible To?" might be answered either as God is mind dependent , or not. God is either a set of ideas or existence itself.I think an historical frame is very important, but do not see an author as necessarily a product of the times, but as responsive to the times, which may mean opposed to the times. I also see the philosopher as speaking across the times, addressing Plato or Kant or Platonists and Kantians. And, I see the historical frame as a movement, a development; one that connects us to and separates us from the past.
- Count Lucanor
- Posts: 2318
- Joined: May 6th, 2017, 5:08 pm
- Favorite Philosopher: Umberto Eco
- Location: Panama
- Contact:
Re: What is Theism Reducible to?
― Marcus Tullius Cicero
-
- Posts: 3601
- Joined: February 28th, 2014, 4:50 pm
Re: What is Theism Reducible to?
Yes.Then God has a history.
But this does not really tell us what theism is reducible to since both beliefs and practices are so varied. Two theists might have opposite beliefs about whether God is mind dependent and be in agree as to what God calls them to do. They might also agree that God is or is not mind dependent and have very different ideas as to what this means for the way they live. They may also decide that the question of whether God is mind dependent cannot be decided and focus on how they are to live."What is Theism Reducible To?" might be answered either as God is mind dependent , or not.
- LuckyR
- Moderator
- Posts: 7987
- Joined: January 18th, 2015, 1:16 am
Re: What is Theism Reducible to?
The key word in your post is "alone". I understand the roles of the angst and the habit, and I don't disagree with the idea that there are other sources of theism, what do you propose?Dark Matter wrote: ↑December 15th, 2018, 5:47 pmTrue enough, but anyone who thinks theism is reducible to existential angst and cultural habit alone is laughably naive.LuckyR wrote: ↑December 15th, 2018, 2:42 pm
I agree with you that using logic to reduce folks' "belief" in gods is a fool's errand. Though there are many flaws in the strategy, likely the most practical is that a large number of the religious go through the motions out of habit, without much thought.
-
- Posts: 1366
- Joined: August 18th, 2016, 11:29 am
- Favorite Philosopher: Paul Tillich
Re: What is Theism Reducible to?
The question is “What is theism reducible to?” It sounds to me as though we are in agreement with the proposition that it is reducible to experience and memory association.LuckyR wrote: ↑December 16th, 2018, 4:25 amThe key word in your post is "alone". I understand the roles of the angst and the habit, and I don't disagree with the idea that there are other sources of theism, what do you propose?Dark Matter wrote: ↑December 15th, 2018, 5:47 pm
True enough, but anyone who thinks theism is reducible to existential angst and cultural habit alone is laughably naive.
- Papus79
- Posts: 1800
- Joined: February 19th, 2017, 6:59 pm
Re: What is Theism Reducible to?
- JaxAg
- New Trial Member
- Posts: 17
- Joined: December 16th, 2018, 10:17 am
Re: What is Theism Reducible to?
- JaxAg
- New Trial Member
- Posts: 17
- Joined: December 16th, 2018, 10:17 am
Re: What is Theism Reducible to?
Primates are social creatures. Grooming isn't simply sexual; it happens between individuals who have no likelihood, even no possibility, of mating. The primate brain has developed a capacity to study, and intervene in, complex social structures. It is this capability which enhances opportunities for mating; thus it is this capability which drives the further development of the primate brain. The process seems to have involved the development of abstract mental models of an idealised individual, against which possible strategies and tactics can be tried out 'theoretically', before being put into action. Concepts like 'I', as well as presumptions of consciousness in trees, thunderclouds, rivers etc, are probably outworkings of this calculating, social-action-planning machine called the primate brain. Theism is just one of many story-forms involving non-human Beings and consciousnesses. I suspect that theism itself confers no evolutionary advantage, but is a fascinating by-product of neurological developments which have themselves been reproductively-advantageous at some stages of our pre-history.Spectrum wrote: ↑March 13th, 2018, 12:16 am If we look at 100% of all human thinking and acts we can reduce them to basic elements like;
Consider the activities of grooming and looking nice.
- 1. Basic survival - avoid premature death
2. Sex - procreation - next generation
3. Food - nutrition to facilitate survival
4. Security
5. Health
6. Others ??
While grooming may have secondary reasons, I don't think many can relate this to its ultimate root cause, i.e. producing the next generation via attraction of the opposite to get together and ultimately to have sex and produce the next generation.
It is the same with anything to do with food, the production of food, the ways food are prepared for consumption. At present there are abuses, but this is reducible to it original and still is re the intended function of nutrition and survival to produce to the next generation.
Now almost 90% of humans are theists believing in the common ideology of theism in manifesting is various forms of theism and theistic religions. Seemingly the theistic impulse is more critical and override even the sex and food impulses.
So what is theism and its forms are reducible to at the fundamental level?
Views.
-
- Moderator
- Posts: 6105
- Joined: September 11th, 2016, 2:11 pm
Re: What is Theism Reducible to?
I understand. I am trying to avoid naming 'God' as what Wittgenstein might have called a set of family resemblances, or a rope woven with no fibrous filament that persists throughout its total length.Fooloso4 wrote: ↑December 15th, 2018, 10:54 pm Belindi:
Yes.Then God has a history.
But this does not really tell us what theism is reducible to since both beliefs and practices are so varied. Two theists might have opposite beliefs about whether God is mind dependent and be in agree as to what God calls them to do. They might also agree that God is or is not mind dependent and have very different ideas as to what this means for the way they live. They may also decide that the question of whether God is mind dependent cannot be decided and focus on how they are to live."What is Theism Reducible To?" might be answered either as God is mind dependent , or not.
Would it do to name cosmic orderedness as the rock upon which the ages stand?
-
- Moderator
- Posts: 6105
- Joined: September 11th, 2016, 2:11 pm
Re: What is Theism Reducible to?
Belindi wrote: ↑December 17th, 2018, 11:33 amI understand. I am trying to avoid naming 'God' as what Wittgenstein might have called a set of family resemblances, or a rope woven with no fibrous filament that persists throughout its total length.Fooloso4 wrote: ↑December 15th, 2018, 10:54 pm Belindi:
Yes.
But this does not really tell us what theism is reducible to since both beliefs and practices are so varied. Two theists might have opposite beliefs about whether God is mind dependent and be in agree as to what God calls them to do. They might also agree that God is or is not mind dependent and have very different ideas as to what this means for the way they live. They may also decide that the question of whether God is mind dependent cannot be decided and focus on how they are to live.
Would it do to name cosmic orderedness as the rock upon which the ages stand? Cosmic orderedness would overarch the roles of all beliefs and all practices.
Cosmic orderedness is also beyond human comprehension, due to the apparent chaos of accidental events.
-
- Posts: 3601
- Joined: February 28th, 2014, 4:50 pm
Re: What is Theism Reducible to?
This raises the question of top down versus bottom up order. Do things conform to a pre-existing order or structure or are things self-ordering at one or more levels?Would it do to name cosmic orderedness as the rock upon which the ages stand?
I favor a bottom up ordering that is open-ended. It is beyond human comprehension because what will be is not determinable by what has been and what presently is.Cosmic orderedness is also beyond human comprehension, due to the apparent chaos of accidental events.
2023/2024 Philosophy Books of the Month
Mark Victor Hansen, Relentless: Wisdom Behind the Incomparable Chicken Soup for the Soul
by Mitzi Perdue
February 2023
Rediscovering the Wisdom of Human Nature: How Civilization Destroys Happiness
by Chet Shupe
March 2023