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What is Theism Reducible to?

Discuss philosophical questions regarding theism (and atheism), and discuss religion as it relates to philosophy. This includes any philosophical discussions that happen to be about god, gods, or a 'higher power' or the belief of them. This also generally includes philosophical topics about organized or ritualistic mysticism or about organized, common or ritualistic beliefs in the existence of supernatural phenomenon.
Dark Matter
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Re: What is Theism Reducible to?

Post by Dark Matter » December 15th, 2018, 4:34 am

Papus79 wrote:
December 15th, 2018, 2:38 am
I thought he was more trying to peg it's place of origin in terms of the needs that bring it into prominence.
I've dealt with Spectrum before. He's under the illusion that if theism can be reduced to psychological angst it would undermine belief in God. Nonsense, of course, but he's quite obsessive about it.

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Papus79
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Re: What is Theism Reducible to?

Post by Papus79 » December 15th, 2018, 10:51 am

Lol, good luck to him then. It's too nebulous a concept.

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LuckyR
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Re: What is Theism Reducible to?

Post by LuckyR » December 15th, 2018, 2:42 pm

Dark Matter wrote:
December 15th, 2018, 4:34 am
Papus79 wrote:
December 15th, 2018, 2:38 am
I thought he was more trying to peg it's place of origin in terms of the needs that bring it into prominence.
I've dealt with Spectrum before. He's under the illusion that if theism can be reduced to psychological angst it would undermine belief in God. Nonsense, of course, but he's quite obsessive about it.
I agree with you that using logic to reduce folks' "belief" in gods is a fool's errand. Though there are many flaws in the strategy, likely the most practical is that a large number of the religious go through the motions out of habit, without much thought.
"As usual... it depends."

Dark Matter
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Re: What is Theism Reducible to?

Post by Dark Matter » December 15th, 2018, 5:47 pm

LuckyR wrote:
December 15th, 2018, 2:42 pm
Dark Matter wrote:
December 15th, 2018, 4:34 am

I've dealt with Spectrum before. He's under the illusion that if theism can be reduced to psychological angst it would undermine belief in God. Nonsense, of course, but he's quite obsessive about it.
I agree with you that using logic to reduce folks' "belief" in gods is a fool's errand. Though there are many flaws in the strategy, likely the most practical is that a large number of the religious go through the motions out of habit, without much thought.
True enough, but anyone who thinks theism is reducible to existential angst and cultural habit alone is laughably naive.

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Re: What is Theism Reducible to?

Post by Belindi » December 15th, 2018, 7:04 pm

Fooloso4 wrote:
I think an historical frame is very important, but do not see an author as necessarily a product of the times, but as responsive to the times, which may mean opposed to the times. I also see the philosopher as speaking across the times, addressing Plato or Kant or Platonists and Kantians. And, I see the historical frame as a movement, a development; one that connects us to and separates us from the past.
Then God has a history. "What is Theism Reducible To?" might be answered either as God is mind dependent , or not. God is either a set of ideas or existence itself.

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Count Lucanor
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Re: What is Theism Reducible to?

Post by Count Lucanor » December 15th, 2018, 10:22 pm

Theism is reducible to ignorance and superstition. What else.

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Re: What is Theism Reducible to?

Post by Fooloso4 » December 15th, 2018, 10:54 pm

Belindi:
Then God has a history.
Yes.
"What is Theism Reducible To?" might be answered either as God is mind dependent , or not.
But this does not really tell us what theism is reducible to since both beliefs and practices are so varied. Two theists might have opposite beliefs about whether God is mind dependent and be in agree as to what God calls them to do. They might also agree that God is or is not mind dependent and have very different ideas as to what this means for the way they live. They may also decide that the question of whether God is mind dependent cannot be decided and focus on how they are to live.

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Re: What is Theism Reducible to?

Post by LuckyR » December 16th, 2018, 4:25 am

Dark Matter wrote:
December 15th, 2018, 5:47 pm
LuckyR wrote:
December 15th, 2018, 2:42 pm


I agree with you that using logic to reduce folks' "belief" in gods is a fool's errand. Though there are many flaws in the strategy, likely the most practical is that a large number of the religious go through the motions out of habit, without much thought.
True enough, but anyone who thinks theism is reducible to existential angst and cultural habit alone is laughably naive.
The key word in your post is "alone". I understand the roles of the angst and the habit, and I don't disagree with the idea that there are other sources of theism, what do you propose?
"As usual... it depends."

Dark Matter
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Re: What is Theism Reducible to?

Post by Dark Matter » December 16th, 2018, 4:54 pm

LuckyR wrote:
December 16th, 2018, 4:25 am
Dark Matter wrote:
December 15th, 2018, 5:47 pm


True enough, but anyone who thinks theism is reducible to existential angst and cultural habit alone is laughably naive.
The key word in your post is "alone". I understand the roles of the angst and the habit, and I don't disagree with the idea that there are other sources of theism, what do you propose?
The question is “What is theism reducible to?” It sounds to me as though we are in agreement with the proposition that it is reducible to experience and memory association.

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Papus79
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Re: What is Theism Reducible to?

Post by Papus79 » December 16th, 2018, 5:41 pm

Even wittier perhaps, religion is something universes do. No universe - no religion.

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JaxAg
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Re: What is Theism Reducible to?

Post by JaxAg » December 17th, 2018, 2:42 am

The answer to the OP can be got from any decent dictionary: Theism is reducible to the belief that a single, conscious Divine Being created the world, and cares about what happens to it. All the rest of the ideas discussed by Papus and others, (Deism, panpsychism) etc, although to me much more interesting subjects for speculation, miss the point of the question; which asks refers specifically about Theism. .

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JaxAg
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Re: What is Theism Reducible to?

Post by JaxAg » December 17th, 2018, 3:16 am

Spectrum wrote:
March 13th, 2018, 12:16 am
If we look at 100% of all human thinking and acts we can reduce them to basic elements like;
  • 1. Basic survival - avoid premature death
    2. Sex - procreation - next generation
    3. Food - nutrition to facilitate survival
    4. Security
    5. Health
    6. Others ??
Consider the activities of grooming and looking nice.
While grooming may have secondary reasons, I don't think many can relate this to its ultimate root cause, i.e. producing the next generation via attraction of the opposite to get together and ultimately to have sex and produce the next generation.

It is the same with anything to do with food, the production of food, the ways food are prepared for consumption. At present there are abuses, but this is reducible to it original and still is re the intended function of nutrition and survival to produce to the next generation.

Now almost 90% of humans are theists believing in the common ideology of theism in manifesting is various forms of theism and theistic religions. Seemingly the theistic impulse is more critical and override even the sex and food impulses.

So what is theism and its forms are reducible to at the fundamental level?

Views.
Primates are social creatures. Grooming isn't simply sexual; it happens between individuals who have no likelihood, even no possibility, of mating. The primate brain has developed a capacity to study, and intervene in, complex social structures. It is this capability which enhances opportunities for mating; thus it is this capability which drives the further development of the primate brain. The process seems to have involved the development of abstract mental models of an idealised individual, against which possible strategies and tactics can be tried out 'theoretically', before being put into action. Concepts like 'I', as well as presumptions of consciousness in trees, thunderclouds, rivers etc, are probably outworkings of this calculating, social-action-planning machine called the primate brain. Theism is just one of many story-forms involving non-human Beings and consciousnesses. I suspect that theism itself confers no evolutionary advantage, but is a fascinating by-product of neurological developments which have themselves been reproductively-advantageous at some stages of our pre-history.

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Re: What is Theism Reducible to?

Post by Belindi » December 17th, 2018, 11:33 am

Fooloso4 wrote:
December 15th, 2018, 10:54 pm
Belindi:
Then God has a history.
Yes.
"What is Theism Reducible To?" might be answered either as God is mind dependent , or not.
But this does not really tell us what theism is reducible to since both beliefs and practices are so varied. Two theists might have opposite beliefs about whether God is mind dependent and be in agree as to what God calls them to do. They might also agree that God is or is not mind dependent and have very different ideas as to what this means for the way they live. They may also decide that the question of whether God is mind dependent cannot be decided and focus on how they are to live.
I understand. I am trying to avoid naming 'God' as what Wittgenstein might have called a set of family resemblances, or a rope woven with no fibrous filament that persists throughout its total length.

Would it do to name cosmic orderedness as the rock upon which the ages stand?

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Re: What is Theism Reducible to?

Post by Belindi » December 17th, 2018, 11:36 am

Belindi wrote:
December 17th, 2018, 11:33 am
Fooloso4 wrote:
December 15th, 2018, 10:54 pm
Belindi:



Yes.



But this does not really tell us what theism is reducible to since both beliefs and practices are so varied. Two theists might have opposite beliefs about whether God is mind dependent and be in agree as to what God calls them to do. They might also agree that God is or is not mind dependent and have very different ideas as to what this means for the way they live. They may also decide that the question of whether God is mind dependent cannot be decided and focus on how they are to live.
I understand. I am trying to avoid naming 'God' as what Wittgenstein might have called a set of family resemblances, or a rope woven with no fibrous filament that persists throughout its total length.

Would it do to name cosmic orderedness as the rock upon which the ages stand? Cosmic orderedness would overarch the roles of all beliefs and all practices.
Cosmic orderedness is also beyond human comprehension, due to the apparent chaos of accidental events.

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Re: What is Theism Reducible to?

Post by Fooloso4 » December 17th, 2018, 1:03 pm

Belindi:
Would it do to name cosmic orderedness as the rock upon which the ages stand?
This raises the question of top down versus bottom up order. Do things conform to a pre-existing order or structure or are things self-ordering at one or more levels?
Cosmic orderedness is also beyond human comprehension, due to the apparent chaos of accidental events.
I favor a bottom up ordering that is open-ended. It is beyond human comprehension because what will be is not determinable by what has been and what presently is.

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