Cases against Teleological Arguments

Discuss philosophical questions regarding theism (and atheism), and discuss religion as it relates to philosophy. This includes any philosophical discussions that happen to be about god, gods, or a 'higher power' or the belief of them. This also generally includes philosophical topics about organized or ritualistic mysticism or about organized, common or ritualistic beliefs in the existence of supernatural phenomenon.
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Felix
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Re: Cases against Teleological Arguments

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Thinking critical: in fact the BBT makes no claims what so ever to the origin of the Universe.
Of course it doesn't, because it cannot say what preceded the big bang and therefore if it marked the actual beginning of the universe or merely a new birth in a long and perhaps infinite series of births. This is certainly more plausible than the idea that it spontaneously appeared from nothing 13.8 billion years ago (to borrow your birthdate).
However an eternal Universe does not match any observations from expansion or data from the CMB and contradicts the first and second law of thermodynamics
Well, scientists are rather inept at measuring infinity - they have to start with the only speck of it they can recognize.
Alias: If you don't know what the purpose is, how do you identify purposeful action? How do you know progress is being made toward and aim, or that there is one?
There are short-term temporal purposes and essential or final purposes. The former are distinct, the latter are not. I thought you were referring to the latter: final purposes. Philosophers like de Chardin nd Aurobindo have suggested that the essential purpose of the Universe is for it to be an avenue for the conscious evolution of Life, or stated more poetically, the means by which the Universe becomes self aware.

But let's get to the bottom line here: why is it more logical to posit that the Universe and life randomly arose out of disorder than to posit that it is innately orderly and is simply realizing (making real) it's intrinsic nature?
"We do not see things as they are; we see things as we are." - Anaïs Nin
Alias
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Re: Cases against Teleological Arguments

Post by Alias »

Felix wrote: June 10th, 2018, 2:37 pm There are short-term temporal purposes and essential or final purposes. The former are distinct, the latter are not.
And you can tell them apart, and know which to attribute to Life, which to Nature, and which to the Universe.
I'll take evidence of either long- or short-term that can be shown to originate outside of a living entity.
Philosophers like de Chardin nd Aurobindo have suggested that the essential purpose of the Universe is for it to be an avenue for the conscious evolution of Life, or stated more poetically, the means by which the Universe becomes self aware.
Sooooo... The Universe, which is not self-aware or conscious, devises an intelligent plan how to start and develop life-forms that will give it conscious self-awareness at the end.
(I actually wrote this in a prose-poem one time....)
But let's get to the bottom line here: why is it more logical to posit that the Universe and life randomly arose out of disorder than to posit that it is innately orderly and is simply realizing (making real) it's intrinsic nature?
We always knew it was orderly - at least insofar as having a range of possible relationships and interactions that can only proceed in one direction, in a range of particular configurations.
What we dispute is that this activity is inherently intelligent and purposeful.
(...but that fanciful notion was predicated on the bang-crunch cycle.)
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ThomasHobbes
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Re: Cases against Teleological Arguments

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Alias wrote: June 9th, 2018, 6:22 pm
ThomasHobbes wrote: June 9th, 2018, 5:43 pm People without appendixes survive dehydration and wTF "gut-purging epidemics'.
Dysentery, Salmonella, Typhoid, E. coli, cholera, clostridium and like that.
Now in countries with advanced medicine readily available, people without an appendix survive to reproduce.
Not so much, a few million years ago, when evolution favoured the ones with.
I'm not particularly concerned about the appendix, one way or the other. Just attempting to clarify recent findings why its retention is not an evolutionary mistake, after all.
There is no such thing as an evolutionary mistake. There is such a thing as a vestigial organ.
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Re: Cases against Teleological Arguments

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ThomasHobbes wrote: June 10th, 2018, 3:47 pm
There is no such thing as an evolutionary mistake.
Figure of speech for something that is biologically costly, but not useful; an inefficient development; a net liability in the metabolic economy and/or viability of the species.
There is such a thing as a vestigial organ.
Yes, we know. But this one has - or is posited to have - an ongoing useful function in species as diverse as gorillas, rabbits and beavers. It's hard to imagine why all of these species would the same original organ and retain the same vestige over such a long time-span.
The question isn't all that important to me - just kind of interesting.
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Felix
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Re: Cases against Teleological Arguments

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Alias: Sooooo... The Universe, which is not self-aware or conscious, devises an intelligent plan how to start and develop life-forms that will give it conscious self-awareness at the end.
Poetry often sounds silly when you attempt to interpret it literally. :)

The idea is that consciousness is eternally existent but not always in play. When in play, it can become an adventure in consciousness, from relative unconsciousness to subject/object awareness to pure subjective awareness, a.k.a., universal awareness, which is where the journey began, as in the words of T.S. Eliot, "the end of all our exploring will be to arrive where we started and know the place for the first time.” So the purpose is more playful than goal-oriented.
We always knew it was orderly - at least insofar as having a range of possible relationships and interactions that can only proceed in one direction, in a range of particular configurations. What we dispute is that this activity is inherently intelligent and purposeful.
I understand, but I doubt that any verbal argument could dissuade you from that opinion.
"We do not see things as they are; we see things as we are." - Anaïs Nin
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Re: Cases against Teleological Arguments

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Felix wrote: June 10th, 2018, 8:51 pm The idea is that consciousness is eternally existent but not always in play.
This is not getting any more intelligible. What does "in play" mean when applied to consciousness? Does the universe faint once in a while? What/who takes consciousness out of play? And sends it back on the field? At what intervals? On what principle?
When in play, it can become an adventure in consciousness, from relative unconsciousness to subject/object awareness to pure subjective awareness, a.k.a., universal awareness, which is where the journey began, ... So the purpose is more playful than goal-oriented.
I understand, but I doubt that any verbal argument could dissuade you from that opinion.
That one sure didn't!
But it made me dizzy.
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ThomasHobbes
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Re: Cases against Teleological Arguments

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Alias wrote: June 10th, 2018, 6:21 pm
The question isn't all that important to me - just kind of interesting.
And your objections simply re-rail the thread.
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Felix
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Re: Cases against Teleological Arguments

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Alias: This is not getting any more intelligible. What does "in play" mean when applied to consciousness?
Starting with the premise that Mind is immaterial, "in play" would mean actively manifesting through material vehicles, human brains, etc. And that's "play" as in the Vedanta conception of the Universe being the playground of Universal Mind, a.k.a., maya. What is the purpose of play? Depends on the game.

I once experienced myself as a focal point of awareness in a sea of seemingly infinite energy, the subject/object material world had vanished. It was a fascinating experience to be disembodied awareness but it also scared the hell out of me - initially anyway. I was under the influence of a well known chemical discovered by Dr. Albert Hofmann. (Some people here are no doubt thinking, "Ah, that explains his odd posts!"). But later when I read Aldous Huxley's essay on his mescaline experience (The Doors of Perception) and how it made him consider that the brain/senses may be a filtering mechanism or dimmer switch on consciousness, it made complete sense to me, that is indeed what it was like. Eternity can be held (beheld) in an hour, to paraphrase Blake, but it's an awful lot to take in.
"We do not see things as they are; we see things as we are." - Anaïs Nin
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Re: Cases against Teleological Arguments

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ThomasHobbes wrote: June 11th, 2018, 5:42 am And your objections simply re-rail the thread.
To be quite factual, I didn't object to anything. You objected to Karpel Tunnel's citation of the article which refutes your claim that the human appendix doesn't serve any purpose. I read the article and attempted to clarify how it does. You objected to that. Etc.
But re-railing won't help this thread anyway, so I don't think much has been lost.
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Re: Cases against Teleological Arguments

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Felix wrote: June 11th, 2018, 2:39 pm [What does "in play" mean when applied to consciousness?]

Starting with the premise that Mind is immaterial,
No fair! You've just introduced yet another imponderable player. Universe. Nature. Life. And now, Mind.
Where is the Mind when not in play?
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Felix
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Re: Cases against Teleological Arguments

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Where is the Mind when not in play?
Oh, I'm not very good at Zen koans.... in Nirvana? :P
"We do not see things as they are; we see things as we are." - Anaïs Nin
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ThomasHobbes
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Re: Cases against Teleological Arguments

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Alias wrote: June 11th, 2018, 2:43 pm
ThomasHobbes wrote: June 11th, 2018, 5:42 am And your objections simply re-rail the thread.
To be quite factual, I didn't object to anything. You objected to Karpel Tunnel's citation of the article which refutes your claim that the human appendix doesn't serve any purpose. I read the article and attempted to clarify how it does. You objected to that. Etc.
But re-railing won't help this thread anyway, so I don't think much has been lost.

I meant to type DE-rail.
As far as I am concerned there is not telos to the universe and will most probably expire in heat-death long after we are along gone.
Purpose requires conscious effort and since the universe seem to have none of that except in living systems which include consciousness, we can dismiss most of teleology.
As teleological beings we continually make the mistake to attribute purpose to the inanimate and autnomic processes that seem useful to us.
The liver does many thing. We would die without one and so we attribute to it a purpose of keeping us alive. Yet this seems to be a misattribution.
It has functions, useful functions, but this does not amount to purpose.

Functionalism has much improved the way to view our own body and other biological systems; teleology often takes us along false trails. False trails which assert an evolutionary psychology or equilibrium as if some guiding hand has a plan.
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ThomasHobbes
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Re: Cases against Teleological Arguments

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PS my typing is crap at the moment. Apologies for typos.
Wish the site had a edit function.
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Thinking critical
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Re: Cases against Teleological Arguments

Post by Thinking critical »

Felix wrote: June 10th, 2018, 2:37 pm
Thinking critical: in fact the BBT makes no claims what so ever to the origin of the Universe.
Of course it doesn't, because it cannot say what preceded the big bang and therefore if it marked the actual beginning of the universe or merely a new birth in a long and perhaps infinite series of births. This is certainly more plausible than the idea that it spontaneously appeared from nothing 13.8 billion years ago (to borrow your birthdate).
It's not that the theory can't say how the Universe began, it's that our current understanding of quantum gravity prevents us from answering these questions.
Perhaps there was an infinite series of births, perhaps this Universe is part of a multiverse.....however, each one of those options makes the teleological assumption less necessary.
As for Universes spontaneously appearing from nothing, first we would need to define nothing, Lawrence Krauss has a very interesting and coherent explanation of "nothing" and secondly......what do you mean by spontaneously? If by spontaneous you're referring to an uncaused cause, by what method have you deduced that an uncaused cause is NOT allowed in nature?
This cocky little cognitive contortionist will straighten you right out
Karpel Tunnel
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Re: Cases against Teleological Arguments

Post by Karpel Tunnel »

ThomasHobbes wrote: June 11th, 2018, 5:42 am
Alias wrote: June 10th, 2018, 6:21 pm
The question isn't all that important to me - just kind of interesting.
And your objections simply re-rail the thread.
Then the issue of the appendix,which you raised, was derailing the thread. And then, yes, whether you were correct or not - incorrect in this case - also does not matter.
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