Announcement: Your votes are in! The January 2019 Philosophy Book of the Month is The Runaway Species: How Human Creativity Remakes the World by David Eagleman and Anthony Brandt.

What is Your Story?

Discuss philosophical questions regarding theism (and atheism), and discuss religion as it relates to philosophy. This includes any philosophical discussions that happen to be about god, gods, or a 'higher power' or the belief of them. This also generally includes philosophical topics about organized or ritualistic mysticism or about organized, common or ritualistic beliefs in the existence of supernatural phenomenon.
Dark Matter
Posts: 1348
Joined: August 18th, 2016, 11:29 am
Favorite Philosopher: Paul Tillich

Re: What is Your Story?

Post by Dark Matter » July 21st, 2018, 4:35 pm

Fooloso4 wrote:
July 20th, 2018, 8:40 am
DM:
So, you'rean advocate of "shut up and calculate." That misses the point of the whole scientific endeavor.
How do you get from facts and evidence to your uninformed misuse of the phrase "shut up and calculate"? Your response shows that you miss the point of the whole philosophical endeavor. Philosophical discussion requires you to respond to what was actually said.
Science deals with facts, philosophy with meanings and religion with values. You’ve made it quite clear you deal only with empirical facts and don’t care about what they might mean (“I don’t know, but not that). That is to say, YOU miss the point of the whole philosophical endeavor; science is just a tool.
Vacuous one liners are no substitute for philosophical discussion. You have provided nothing of substance to backup your claim that the facts underpinning all of physics have proven to be indeterminate. Connect the dots.
Facts are not entities that can be dealt with individually. Indeterminacy, entanglement, superposition, etc. have to be taken in as a unified whole. Nevertheless, if the measurement problem really is insoluble, how can you deny that the facts underpinning physics is indeterminate?

It all goes to the BIG question: what must be in order for what is to be as it is?

That question is avoided like the plague — “I don’t know but not that” is the only answer you proffer — and that’s not doing philosophy.

User avatar
ThomasHobbes
Posts: 1122
Joined: May 5th, 2018, 5:53 pm

Re: What is Your Story?

Post by ThomasHobbes » July 21st, 2018, 5:17 pm

Dark Matter wrote:
April 1st, 2018, 4:43 pm
Physics and the math supporting it tells us that the universe should not exist.
Maths and physical tells us nothing of the kind.
In fact they tell us very little in and of themselves.
They are means by which we try to describe the universe.
If they are telling us wrongly then there is a problem with the narrative.

Dark Matter
Posts: 1348
Joined: August 18th, 2016, 11:29 am
Favorite Philosopher: Paul Tillich

Re: What is Your Story?

Post by Dark Matter » July 21st, 2018, 9:53 pm

ThomasHobbes wrote:
July 21st, 2018, 5:17 pm
Dark Matter wrote:
April 1st, 2018, 4:43 pm
Physics and the math supporting it tells us that the universe should not exist.
Maths and physical tells us nothing of the kind.
In fact they tell us very little in and of themselves.
They are means by which we try to describe the universe.
If they are telling us wrongly then there is a problem with the narrative.
Exactly. There’s a problem with the narrative because the narrative tells us the universe shouldn’t exist.

User avatar
Thinking critical
Posts: 1793
Joined: November 7th, 2011, 7:29 pm
Favorite Philosopher: A.C Grayling
Location: Perth, Australia (originally New Zealand)

Re: What is Your Story?

Post by Thinking critical » July 21st, 2018, 10:09 pm

Dark Matter wrote:
July 21st, 2018, 9:53 pm
ThomasHobbes wrote:
July 21st, 2018, 5:17 pm


Maths and physical tells us nothing of the kind.
In fact they tell us very little in and of themselves.
They are means by which we try to describe the universe.
If they are telling us wrongly then there is a problem with the narrative.
Exactly. There’s a problem with the narrative because the narrative tells us the universe shouldn’t exist.
No! DM the narrative clearly states that there are gaps in our current knowledge. This is blatantly obvious due to the fact that the conclusion which has been drawn (in this particular article) create a model of the Universe which doesn't match reality.
This cocky little cognitive contortionist will straighten you right out

Fooloso4
Moderator
Posts: 3519
Joined: February 28th, 2014, 4:50 pm

Re: What is Your Story?

Post by Fooloso4 » July 21st, 2018, 10:21 pm

DM:
Science deals with facts, philosophy with meanings and religion with values.
This is far too simplistic. Science deals with facts but not only facts. Philosophy also deals with facts as do some theologians. Philosophy deals with meanings but not only meanings. Religion also deals with meanings. Religion deals with values but not only values. Philosophy also deals with values.
You’ve made it quite clear you deal only with empirical facts and don’t care about what they might mean (“I don’t know, but not that).
You made this into a story about me! I was discussing the symmetry problem. You also make up a story about the symmetry problem and call it meaning. As I see it the problem is scientific and at least in theory will yield a scientific solution just as countless other scientific problems have.
That is to say, YOU miss the point of the whole philosophical endeavor; science is just a tool.
Science is a highly successful mode of inquiry. One without rival. You are using science to fuel your God shaped imagination.

As to the “whole philosophical endeavor”, I have written extensively about it on this forum.
Indeterminacy, entanglement, superposition, etc. have to be taken in as a unified whole.
They are not a unified whole, they are descriptive of the observed behavior of subatomic particles. You also make up a God shaped story about quantum physics and call it meaning.
Nevertheless, if the measurement problem really is insoluble, how can you deny that the facts underpinning physics is indeterminate?
I can understand why you hope it really is insoluble, but there is no good reason at this point to conclude that it is.

There is nothing underpinning physics. Quantum physics is still in its infancy. Physicists really do not understand what is going on, but they are not about to abandon physics in favor of miracles. For many our peek into quantum weirdness is cause for wonder.

Socrates said that philosophy begins in wonder. Wonder is more primary than meaning. Meaning is often the death of wonder. The focus shifts from that which engenders wonder to a story about it.
It all goes to the BIG question: what must be in order for what is to be as it is?
We have absolutely no idea of what if anything must be in order for what is to be as it is. You can make up stories but they do not actually tell us anything about what must be in order for what is to be as it is.
That question is avoided like the plague — “I don’t know but not that” is the only answer you proffer — and that’s not doing philosophy.
That is not my answer to your big question. My answer is to question the assumption that underlies the question - the assumption that there be some what that MUST be something in order for anything to be. I see no reason to make that assumption. The wonder is that there is anything at all. You can make up stories about what must be, but by doing so you move away from the true source of wonder, and it is right here visible to all right now.
There’s a problem with the narrative because the narrative tells us the universe shouldn’t exist.
There certainly is a problem with the narrative, but that is your narrative not the narrative told by science. Science says that the universe should not exist if the symmetry had not broken, but they have yet to discover what broke it.

Dark Matter
Posts: 1348
Joined: August 18th, 2016, 11:29 am
Favorite Philosopher: Paul Tillich

Re: What is Your Story?

Post by Dark Matter » July 21st, 2018, 11:25 pm

Thinking critical wrote:
July 21st, 2018, 10:09 pm
Dark Matter wrote:
July 21st, 2018, 9:53 pm


Exactly. There’s a problem with the narrative because the narrative tells us the universe shouldn’t exist.
No! DM the narrative clearly states that there are gaps in our current knowledge.
That’s exactly what I said. But if the answers cannot be found by science even in principle, where do you find them? Does reason cease where empiricism ends?

User avatar
Greta
Site Admin
Posts: 7447
Joined: December 16th, 2013, 9:05 pm

Re: What is Your Story?

Post by Greta » July 21st, 2018, 11:44 pm

Dark Matter wrote:
July 21st, 2018, 11:25 pm
Thinking critical wrote:
July 21st, 2018, 10:09 pm


No! DM the narrative clearly states that there are gaps in our current knowledge.
That’s exactly what I said. But if the answers cannot be found by science even in principle, where do you find them? Does reason cease where empiricism ends?
You can either:
1) guess or
2) keep studying and wait for more evidence.

#1 is fine for personal use but requires qualifiers in philosophy. #2 can work either personally or professionally, although those who really need answers right now can always opt for #1.

Dark Matter
Posts: 1348
Joined: August 18th, 2016, 11:29 am
Favorite Philosopher: Paul Tillich

Re: What is Your Story?

Post by Dark Matter » July 22nd, 2018, 12:04 am

Greta wrote:
July 21st, 2018, 11:44 pm
Dark Matter wrote:
July 21st, 2018, 11:25 pm


That’s exactly what I said. But if the answers cannot be found by science even in principle, where do you find them? Does reason cease where empiricism ends?
You can either:
1) guess or
2) keep studying and wait for more evidence.

#1 is fine for personal use but requires qualifiers in philosophy. #2 can work either personally or professionally, although those who really need answers right now can always opt for #1.
“...if the answers cannot be found by science even in principle.”

#1 is reasoned (no sane person will say Thomas Aquinas, for example, simply guessed;#2 is “promissory materialism,” the very definition of blind faith.

User avatar
Greta
Site Admin
Posts: 7447
Joined: December 16th, 2013, 9:05 pm

Re: What is Your Story?

Post by Greta » July 22nd, 2018, 12:48 am

Yes, Aquinas simply guessed. He educated himself to improve his guess, but that's what he did - guessed.

There is no blind faith in waiting for evidence - evidence, one way or another, always comes.

Again, you don't seem to understand how science is conducted. Scientists don't just sit on their hands and wait for "promissory" revelations to occur. They first consider what may be, ie. they guess. This is the point that Aquinas and many other theists reach before giving up and simply treating their hypotheses as fact.

Scientists, by contrast, don't just settle for guesses but label them "hypotheses" and then proceed to test the ideas. Then they follow the results to see what will happen without second guessing or demanding that nature reveal its answers on their schedule.

If nature fails to reveal the answers quickly enough, scientists do not take your approach of simply making a decision on obviously and perhaps profoundly incomplete evidence and then declaring it to be How Things Are. They admit that they don't know and keep learning. They have faith that they can learn more but not that they can crack the codes of reality.

However, if you wish to convince yourself that God exists and enjoy the placebo effects and enervating effects of creative imagination and, deep down, you may believe this is for real. However, at some point you should ideally also have the capacity to step back from your subjective experiences and consider what's happening at a broader perspective, and understand that subjective proof cannot be sufficient for the many, where each person has their own "subjective proofs".

The above are just basic lessons in logical skepticism of ancient philosophers, who found that edicts from on high and sacred texts often contained flawed information and thus should be questioned rather than just obeyed.

User avatar
Thinking critical
Posts: 1793
Joined: November 7th, 2011, 7:29 pm
Favorite Philosopher: A.C Grayling
Location: Perth, Australia (originally New Zealand)

Re: What is Your Story

Post by Thinking critical » July 22nd, 2018, 3:40 am

Dark Matter wrote:
July 21st, 2018, 11:25 pm
Thinking critical wrote:
July 21st, 2018, 10:09 pm


No! DM the narrative clearly states that there are gaps in our current knowledge.
That’s exactly what I said. But if the answers cannot be found by science even in principle, where do you find them? Does reason cease where empiricism ends?
There will always be a frontier to the scientific endeavour. If science is unable provide answers to our questions it maybe that we are asking the wrong questions.
There may very well be limits to the depth off what our minds can comprehend, It won't be the science that fails us, but our own ability to even fathom what may be right in front if us.
This cocky little cognitive contortionist will straighten you right out

Dark Matter
Posts: 1348
Joined: August 18th, 2016, 11:29 am
Favorite Philosopher: Paul Tillich

Re: What is Your Story

Post by Dark Matter » July 22nd, 2018, 3:34 pm

Thinking critical wrote:
July 22nd, 2018, 3:40 am
Dark Matter wrote:
July 21st, 2018, 11:25 pm


That’s exactly what I said. But if the answers cannot be found by science even in principle, where do you find them? Does reason cease where empiricism ends?
There will always be a frontier to the scientific endeavour. If science is unable provide answers to our questions it maybe that we are asking the wrong questions.
There may very well be limits to the depth off what our minds can comprehend, It won't be the science that fails us, but our own ability to even fathom what may be right in front if us.
I agree 100% I just don't limit understanding to physical phenomena.

Fooloso4
Moderator
Posts: 3519
Joined: February 28th, 2014, 4:50 pm

Re: What is Your Story?

Post by Fooloso4 » July 22nd, 2018, 4:33 pm

DM:
That question is avoided like the plague — “I don’t know but not that” is the only answer you proffer — and that’s not doing philosophy.
It is funny and quite telling that after making this broadshot accusation you avoid my response “like the plague”. Funny but not surprising since it requires a self-examination that brings into question the underlying assumptions of your story. Despite your talk of oneness, non-duality, and artificial constructs, you appeal to “possibilities” based on some “what [that] must be in order for what is to be as it is”. It is a duality of what is and a “source or ground” of what is, that is, a BIG artificial construct you now call “the Force” rather than God.

It is not a matter of not “limit[ing] understanding to physical phenomena” but of imaging something and calling it “understanding” without anything that actually stands under that lends support to what you imagine must be. You place arbitrary limits on what can be known by science “in principle”, such as quantum physics and the solution to the symmetry problem, and call what you imagine might lie beyond and behind this an activity of “reason” and “understanding” when it is nothing more than a story you tell yourself to comfort yourself. Now you might not like or even want to consider the possibility that this story about yourself is true, but it is supported by the evidence of what you have said.

Dark Matter
Posts: 1348
Joined: August 18th, 2016, 11:29 am
Favorite Philosopher: Paul Tillich

Re: What is Your Story?

Post by Dark Matter » July 22nd, 2018, 6:14 pm

Greta wrote:
July 22nd, 2018, 12:48 am

There is no blind faith in waiting for evidence - evidence, one way or another, always comes.
What part of “not even in principle” don’t you understand? It appears that your religion is scientism: the irrational view that science alone is the gateway to reality. It’s a leftover from when positivism was the fad.

You are right, though, that evidence always come in one way or another. The catch is, you have to look for it and it’s not always testable.

Dark Matter
Posts: 1348
Joined: August 18th, 2016, 11:29 am
Favorite Philosopher: Paul Tillich

Re: What is Your Story?

Post by Dark Matter » July 22nd, 2018, 6:19 pm

By “testable” I of course meant empirically.

User avatar
Greta
Site Admin
Posts: 7447
Joined: December 16th, 2013, 9:05 pm

Re: What is Your Story?

Post by Greta » July 22nd, 2018, 7:09 pm

Dark Matter wrote:
July 22nd, 2018, 6:14 pm
Greta wrote:
July 22nd, 2018, 12:48 am

There is no blind faith in waiting for evidence - evidence, one way or another, always comes.
What part of “not even in principle” don’t you understand? It appears that your religion is scientism: the irrational view that science alone is the gateway to reality. It’s a leftover from when positivism was the fad.

You are right, though, that evidence always come in one way or another. The catch is, you have to look for it and it’s not always testable.
You seemingly cannot tell the difference between public and subjective domains.

You can believe what you like but others have no reason to believe you. Do you understand this at all??

Effectively you are denying the validity of normal scepticism: https://www.philosophybasics.com/branch_skepticism.html
Skepticism (or Scepticism in the UK spelling), also known as Pyrrhonism or Pyrrhonic Skepticism after the early proponent Pyrrho of Elis, is the philosophical position that one should refrain from making truth claims, and avoid the postulation of final truths. This is not necessarily quite the same as claiming that truth is impossible (which would itself be a truth claim), but is often also used to cover the position that there is no such thing as certainty in human knowledge (sometimes referred to as Academic Skepticism) ...

The early Greek Skeptics criticized the Stoics, accusing them of dogmatism, and argued that the logical mode of argument was untenable, as it relied on propositions which could not be said to be either true or false without relying on further propositions (the regress argument), so that every proposition must rely on other propositions in order to maintain its validity. In addition, the Skeptics argued that two propositions could not rely on each other, as this would create a circular argument.

Such logic, they argued, was thus an inadequate measure of truth which could create as many problems as it claimed to solve. However, they believed that truth was not necessarily unobtainable, but rather an idea which did not yet exist in a pure form. So, rather than denying the possibility of truth, the Greek Skeptics merely claimed that logicians had not yet discovered truth, and intentionally remained tentative and continued their inquiry. They also questioned accepted knowledge, and viewed dogmatism as a disease of the mind.

Post Reply