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Questions to an agnostic

Discuss philosophical questions regarding theism (and atheism), and discuss religion as it relates to philosophy. This includes any philosophical discussions that happen to be about god, gods, or a 'higher power' or the belief of them. This also generally includes philosophical topics about organized or ritualistic mysticism or about organized, common or ritualistic beliefs in the existence of supernatural phenomenon.
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Greta
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Re: Questions to an agnostic

Post by Greta » August 24th, 2018, 6:08 pm

ThomasHobbes wrote:
August 24th, 2018, 6:45 am
Greta wrote:
August 24th, 2018, 4:01 am

Are there issues with side effects with long term use?
Only in some individuals. Allopurinol replaces a part of the chemical chain which converts purines to urine.
Side effects can include a rash, which is rare and not present in my case.
I wish there were such controls for arthritis, TMJ, bulging discs and GORD.

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Felix
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Re: Questions to an agnostic

Post by Felix » August 24th, 2018, 11:31 pm

Studies on pubmed suggest that a successful "placebo needle" has not yet been developed, the pressure of the fake needles is too noticeable.

"An ideal placebo design in clinical research should resemble the intervention under investigation to facilitate blinding, yet remain clinically inert. With regard to physical interventions such as acupuncture, a true placebo device has not been developed and validated."

1) https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/29930521
2) https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/29669794

There were quite a few studies on the use of Chinese herbs to treat arthritis and other diseases. For example: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/28609129
"We do not see things as they are; we see things as we are." - Anaïs Nin

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Greta
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Re: Questions to an agnostic

Post by Greta » August 25th, 2018, 2:44 am

I find it hard to embrace Chinese medicine knowing that some of its methods are pointlessly driving some species to extinction. As always, it can be tricky parsing ancient wisdom from its associated hooey.

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Re: Questions to an agnostic

Post by Eduk » August 25th, 2018, 4:55 am

Felix. So at first the trials fail because they can't find the right points (even though it is simple to do) then when I point out they use 'real' acupuncturists it is because the trials can't be properly double blinded.
You complain how there is no money in proving acupuncture but you ignore that safe effective chronic pain relief would be worth billions (it is an unsolved problems).
I keep on coming back to the same unanswered question. What gives you the confidence in your opinions? Please answer. I would truly like to hear your reasoning. What do you do for a living for example? What subjects do you have expertise in.
Unknown means unknown.

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ThomasHobbes
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Re: Questions to an agnostic

Post by ThomasHobbes » August 25th, 2018, 10:00 am

Greta wrote:
August 24th, 2018, 6:08 pm
ThomasHobbes wrote:
August 24th, 2018, 6:45 am


Only in some individuals. Allopurinol replaces a part of the chemical chain which converts purines to urine.
Side effects can include a rash, which is rare and not present in my case.
I wish there were such controls for arthritis, TMJ, bulging discs and GORD.
As for GORD. Stop eating carbohydrates. That worked for me. I've been on Rennies, KLN, Zantac for years, then Lanzoprazole. Though effective treatments, I only take a Lanny if I know I am going to eat out, or have dessert.
Sugar of all types feeds acid making gut bacteria, and starch causes bloating.

What sort of TMJ do you get? Since my radiation I get jaw cramp. Totally debilitating and utterly painful for about 30 seconds, making me unable to do anything but double up in pain. It can be quite funny as it tends to occur when I open my mouth to eat something that stimulates saliva, like the wires getting crossed. People tend to get either scared of puzzled.

Arthritis is complicated being a generalised symptom for a range of ailments and causes. Goat is among them.

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Felix
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Re: Questions to an agnostic

Post by Felix » August 25th, 2018, 11:59 am

I find it hard to embrace Chinese medicine knowing that some of its methods are pointlessly driving some species to extinction.
I presume you're referring to killing animals and using their body parts for "medicinal" purposes. Reputable TCM practitioners have explicitly denounced the use of animal-based remedies.
Eduk: You complain how there is no money in proving acupuncture but you ignore that safe effective chronic pain relief would be worth billions (it is an unsolved problem).
Perhaps so, if you can find someone willing to pay for the necessary research - the usual financiers of medical research like Big Pharma are completely against the idea.
Eduk: I keep on coming back to the same unanswered question. What gives you the confidence in your opinions?
You haven't been paying attention, I answered your question. First of all, I said I was an agnostic about it. As I explained, the mechanism behind acupuncture, which preliminary research suggests is the modulation of nerve impulses, has never been fully investigated. If we don't know how it works, we will be unable to discern what elicits or prevents its action, and thus be unable to distinguish between it's action and that of a placebo. This is essential, because, for example, studies have shown that the effectiveness of many pain relieving drugs is no greater than that of a placebo.
"We do not see things as they are; we see things as we are." - Anaïs Nin

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Re: Questions to an agnostic

Post by Eduk » August 25th, 2018, 12:54 pm

This is essential, because, for example, studies have shown that the effectiveness of many pain relieving drugs is no greater than that of a placebo.
As I said chronic pain is a big unsolved problem, so acupuncture would be great if it wasn't made up.
You haven't been paying attention, I answered your question. First of all, I said I was an agnostic about it. As I explained, the mechanism behind acupuncture, which preliminary research suggests is the modulation of nerve impulses, has never been fully investigated.
That isn't answering my question. For example you could say you were a trained acupuncturist. Or you could say you were a medical doctor. Or even just things like your profession requires high maths or logic skills. Or you have high expertise in anything and notice several trends. I'd even accept high grades, anything really, any justification whatsoever. How do you know that the mechanism behind acupuncture hasn't been investigated? The consensus of experts is that it has been investigated. How do you know all those experts aren't actually experts.
Unknown means unknown.

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Re: Questions to an agnostic

Post by Greta » August 25th, 2018, 5:39 pm

ThomasHobbes wrote:
August 25th, 2018, 10:00 am
Greta wrote:
August 24th, 2018, 6:08 pm


I wish there were such controls for arthritis, TMJ, bulging discs and GORD.
As for GORD. Stop eating carbohydrates. That worked for me. I've been on Rennies, KLN, Zantac for years, then Lanzoprazole. Though effective treatments, I only take a Lanny if I know I am going to eat out, or have dessert.
Sugar of all types feeds acid making gut bacteria, and starch causes bloating.

What sort of TMJ do you get? Since my radiation I get jaw cramp. Totally debilitating and utterly painful for about 30 seconds, making me unable to do anything but double up in pain. It can be quite funny as it tends to occur when I open my mouth to eat something that stimulates saliva, like the wires getting crossed. People tend to get either scared of puzzled.

Arthritis is complicated being a generalised symptom for a range of ailments and causes. Goat is among them.
I doubt it will be gout (great typo, BTW) as I have about two glasses of wine a month, when my jam pal visits and pressures me.

I have loose ligaments everywhere on my body except my lower back, which one physio reckoned was probably necessary to keep stability given the looseness elsewhere. It was good for party tricks back in the day but something I never imagine - as a lover of walking the bones in my feet have been grinding away for so long that I've lost a lot of cartilage, all of it in one joint. I still walk a few kms a day with the dog but life is gradually teaching me to be philosophical about pain and being denied that which you want!

I'd like umbilical stem cell treatment but it seems I'll have to go to Panama because superstitious religious people with more political power than their numbers warrant consider it a thorny ethical issue (I just see it as taking what would have been treated as biowaste and using it to help people's lives).

The TMJ is an ache when my left hinge "goes out" (probably loose ligaments again) and sometimes when I push it back in the crack is loud enough to make my ear ring. I do jaw exercises each day that a dentist taught me.

You may be right with your GORD hypothesis. I have a deep and abiding love of bread, cakes and biscuits and sugars generally but also have a prolific leafy green vegetables habit to make up for it.

There may come a day when a wand can be waved over a patient and, based on bioflora, temperature and chemical markers a full diagnosis of possible serious ailments will be made in a timely manner but, in the words of Aragorn by the Black Gate of Mordor, 'It is not this day' ...

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Re: Questions to an agnostic

Post by Karpel Tunnel » August 25th, 2018, 11:17 pm

Greta wrote:
August 25th, 2018, 2:44 am
I find it hard to embrace Chinese medicine knowing that some of its methods are pointlessly driving some species to extinction. As always, it can be tricky parsing ancient wisdom from its associated hooey.
I have that with Western science and technology, since it's driving all species towards extinction.

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Re: Questions to an agnostic

Post by LuckyR » August 26th, 2018, 2:11 am

Karpel Tunnel wrote:
August 25th, 2018, 11:17 pm
Greta wrote:
August 25th, 2018, 2:44 am
I find it hard to embrace Chinese medicine knowing that some of its methods are pointlessly driving some species to extinction. As always, it can be tricky parsing ancient wisdom from its associated hooey.
I have that with Western science and technology, since it's driving all species towards extinction.
I wouldn't defend the Chinese if you are trying to avoid species extinction.
"As usual... it depends."

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ThomasHobbes
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Re: Questions to an agnostic

Post by ThomasHobbes » August 26th, 2018, 6:01 am

Greta wrote:
August 25th, 2018, 5:39 pm
ThomasHobbes wrote:
August 25th, 2018, 10:00 am


As for GORD. Stop eating carbohydrates. That worked for me. I've been on Rennies, KLN, Zantac for years, then Lanzoprazole. Though effective treatments, I only take a Lanny if I know I am going to eat out, or have dessert.
Sugar of all types feeds acid making gut bacteria, and starch causes bloating.

What sort of TMJ do you get? Since my radiation I get jaw cramp. Totally debilitating and utterly painful for about 30 seconds, making me unable to do anything but double up in pain. It can be quite funny as it tends to occur when I open my mouth to eat something that stimulates saliva, like the wires getting crossed. People tend to get either scared of puzzled.

Arthritis is complicated being a generalised symptom for a range of ailments and causes. Goat is among them.
I doubt it will be gout (great typo, BTW) as I have about two glasses of wine a month, when my jam pal visits and pressures me.

I have loose ligaments everywhere on my body except my lower back, which one physio reckoned was probably necessary to keep stability given the looseness elsewhere. It was good for party tricks back in the day but something I never imagine - as a lover of walking the bones in my feet have been grinding away for so long that I've lost a lot of cartilage, all of it in one joint. I still walk a few kms a day with the dog but life is gradually teaching me to be philosophical about pain and being denied that which you want!

I'd like umbilical stem cell treatment but it seems I'll have to go to Panama because superstitious religious people with more political power than their numbers warrant consider it a thorny ethical issue (I just see it as taking what would have been treated as biowaste and using it to help people's lives).

The TMJ is an ache when my left hinge "goes out" (probably loose ligaments again) and sometimes when I push it back in the crack is loud enough to make my ear ring. I do jaw exercises each day that a dentist taught me.

You may be right with your GORD hypothesis. I have a deep and abiding love of bread, cakes and biscuits and sugars generally but also have a prolific leafy green vegetables habit to make up for it.

There may come a day when a wand can be waved over a patient and, based on bioflora, temperature and chemical markers a full diagnosis of possible serious ailments will be made in a timely manner but, in the words of Aragorn by the Black Gate of Mordor, 'It is not this day' ...
You health seems in as bad a state as mine. Without being rude would it be indelicate of me to enquire after your age in years, madam?

Aside from my gout (not goat), I have chronic neck pain from radiation that I had now 10 years ago, flat feet, a generous belly, and more aches and pains that I deserve for my tender 58 years.

I use to have goat. In fact I had a small flock of them many years ago. Gregarious and inquisitive creatures, and too tasty for their own good.
Their meat, if cooked well rivals any venison or lamb.

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Re: Questions to an agnostic

Post by Karpel Tunnel » August 26th, 2018, 6:17 am

LuckyR wrote:
August 26th, 2018, 2:11 am
Karpel Tunnel wrote:
August 25th, 2018, 11:17 pm

I have that with Western science and technology, since it's driving all species towards extinction.
I wouldn't defend the Chinese if you are trying to avoid species extinction.
I mean, seriously. I was pointing out the absurdity of her argument. TCM can't be trusted because some or many practitioners use parts of near extinct or threatened species. Seriously.

I don't have to choose between The problematic portions of groups who use certain technologies or processes. I do not have to choose between entire systems that have problematic portion.

I was not 'defending the Chinese', which is an absurd interpretation of my post, since if anything it was focused on TCM, not THE CHINESE. Snore.

Karpel Tunnel
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Re: Questions to an agnostic

Post by Karpel Tunnel » August 26th, 2018, 6:18 am

And I won't throw out Western science because I think the nano-tech guys and the Gene manip guys are playing fast and loose with us.

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Re: Questions to an agnostic

Post by ThomasHobbes » August 26th, 2018, 7:14 am

Karpel Tunnel wrote:
August 25th, 2018, 11:17 pm
Greta wrote:
August 25th, 2018, 2:44 am
I find it hard to embrace Chinese medicine knowing that some of its methods are pointlessly driving some species to extinction. As always, it can be tricky parsing ancient wisdom from its associated hooey.
I have that with Western science and technology, since it's driving all species towards extinction.
And providing us with the knowledge that we are doing it, and in part offering us the knowledge of how to avoid it.
The real trouble is not the science but the way people are choosing to use it..

On the Chinese issue. It is simply moronic to expect Rhinos to become extinct because some soft-pricked dick-wad thinks the Rhino horn will give him the horn. Western science has provided VIAGRA.

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Greta
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Re: Questions to an agnostic

Post by Greta » August 26th, 2018, 6:19 pm

ThomasHobbes wrote:
August 26th, 2018, 6:01 am
Greta wrote:
August 25th, 2018, 5:39 pm

I doubt it will be gout (great typo, BTW) as I have about two glasses of wine a month, when my jam pal visits and pressures me.

I have loose ligaments everywhere on my body except my lower back, which one physio reckoned was probably necessary to keep stability given the looseness elsewhere. It was good for party tricks back in the day but something I never imagine - as a lover of walking the bones in my feet have been grinding away for so long that I've lost a lot of cartilage, all of it in one joint. I still walk a few kms a day with the dog but life is gradually teaching me to be philosophical about pain and being denied that which you want!

I'd like umbilical stem cell treatment but it seems I'll have to go to Panama because superstitious religious people with more political power than their numbers warrant consider it a thorny ethical issue (I just see it as taking what would have been treated as biowaste and using it to help people's lives).

The TMJ is an ache when my left hinge "goes out" (probably loose ligaments again) and sometimes when I push it back in the crack is loud enough to make my ear ring. I do jaw exercises each day that a dentist taught me.

You may be right with your GORD hypothesis. I have a deep and abiding love of bread, cakes and biscuits and sugars generally but also have a prolific leafy green vegetables habit to make up for it.

There may come a day when a wand can be waved over a patient and, based on bioflora, temperature and chemical markers a full diagnosis of possible serious ailments will be made in a timely manner but, in the words of Aragorn by the Black Gate of Mordor, 'It is not this day' ...
You health seems in as bad a state as mine. Without being rude would it be indelicate of me to enquire after your age in years, madam?

Aside from my gout (not goat), I have chronic neck pain from radiation that I had now 10 years ago, flat feet, a generous belly, and more aches and pains that I deserve for my tender 58 years.

I use to have goat. In fact I had a small flock of them many years ago. Gregarious and inquisitive creatures, and too tasty for their own good.
Their meat, if cooked well rivals any venison or lamb.
I am just a little bit older than you, young fella :)

Looking at each of our ailments, they appear to be mechanical more than chemical, less about "health" as such as musculo-skeletal stability. It seems as though or organs are operating at least without great fuss (touch wood) but the bones, cartilage and ligaments are bringing almost constant pain. Oh, I forgot the brachioradial pruritis - especially nasty in summer, especially nights. In fact, it's hard to think of a night where I went to bed without pain or discomfort, not awoken by pain or not forced out of bed by pain. You will probably relate when I say I don't much worry about those things but take them on board as SNAFU, some of the intrinsic limitations of my life.

I did not have flat feet but a slightly shallow arch, my loose ligaments over the years my feel have fallen down into two broad, foot-shaped sacks of assorted foot innards with the arch now almost completely collapsed.

I used to occasionally order Bhuna Gosht at Indian restaurants and I agree goat meat is as good as any. Still, I made an ethical decision to severely cut back on meat consumption a fair while ago and, as a result, any type of cooked animal corpse on a plate smells and tastes sensational as long as it's not cooked to the texture of leather.

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