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Is Christianity Destined to Become a Form of Deism?

Discuss philosophical questions regarding theism (and atheism), and discuss religion as it relates to philosophy. This includes any philosophical discussions that happen to be about god, gods, or a 'higher power' or the belief of them. This also generally includes philosophical topics about organized or ritualistic mysticism or about organized, common or ritualistic beliefs in the existence of supernatural phenomenon.
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ThomasHobbes
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Re: Is Christianity Destined to Become a Form of Deism?

Post by ThomasHobbes » August 10th, 2018, 9:13 am

"You are claiming that the universe exists for a reason OR blind chance. Does your imagination not extend to other alternatives?"
necessity.

anonymous66
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Re: Is Christianity Destined to Become a Form of Deism?

Post by anonymous66 » August 10th, 2018, 9:20 am

ThomasHobbes wrote:
August 10th, 2018, 9:13 am
"You are claiming that the universe exists for a reason OR blind chance. Does your imagination not extend to other alternatives?"
necessity.
So in your view, the answer to why the universe exits (and presumably life as well) is not because "God did it", but rather the answer is: "Because it's necessary that it does"? It seems to me that both answers suggest that the person who holds the belief should stop looking for explanations. For that reason, I find both answers to be unsatisfactory.

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Re: Is Christianity Destined to Become a Form of Deism?

Post by Eduk » August 10th, 2018, 9:21 am

You should ask people what they believe rather than assume.
Unknown means unknown.

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ThomasHobbes
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Re: Is Christianity Destined to Become a Form of Deism?

Post by ThomasHobbes » August 10th, 2018, 10:50 am

anonymous66 wrote:
August 10th, 2018, 9:20 am
ThomasHobbes wrote:
August 10th, 2018, 9:13 am
"You are claiming that the universe exists for a reason OR blind chance. Does your imagination not extend to other alternatives?"
necessity.
So in your view, the answer to why the universe exits (and presumably life as well) is not because "God did it", but rather the answer is: "Because it's necessary that it does"? It seems to me that both answers suggest that the person who holds the belief should stop looking for explanations. For that reason, I find both answers to be unsatisfactory.
My point was that there lies an alternative between chance and god. That alternative is Necessity, and requires no intention or randomness.
All I can say is that the more we understand the universe, the use of our knowledge of necessity has always given us the best answers.
Nothing happens by chance, and what kind of a bizarre god would create such absurdities?

Necessity is simply the unfolding of the universe in terms of it own order and character. As such it needs not explanation at all.

anonymous66
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Re: Is Christianity Destined to Become a Form of Deism?

Post by anonymous66 » August 10th, 2018, 10:56 am

ThomasHobbes wrote:
August 10th, 2018, 10:50 am
anonymous66 wrote:
August 10th, 2018, 9:20 am


So in your view, the answer to why the universe exits (and presumably life as well) is not because "God did it", but rather the answer is: "Because it's necessary that it does"? It seems to me that both answers suggest that the person who holds the belief should stop looking for explanations. For that reason, I find both answers to be unsatisfactory.
My point was that there lies an alternative between chance and god. That alternative is Necessity, and requires no intention or randomness.
All I can say is that the more we understand the universe, the use of our knowledge of necessity has always given us the best answers.
Nothing happens by chance, and what kind of a bizarre god would create such absurdities?

Necessity is simply the unfolding of the universe in terms of it own order and character. As such it needs not explanation at all.
I'm looking for answers to questions like "why are we conscious?" and "how did life arise?" and "how is it that information became encoded in DNA (and before that RNA)?" All I can say is that "necessity" doesn't do much for me. Why is it necessary? How is it that it is necessary?

anonymous66
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Re: Is Christianity Destined to Become a Form of Deism?

Post by anonymous66 » August 10th, 2018, 10:58 am

anonymous66 wrote:
August 10th, 2018, 10:56 am
All I can say is that "necessity" doesn't do much for me. Why is it necessary? How is it that it is necessary?
Necessity is no better an answer than "God did it" as far as I'm concerned.

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ThomasHobbes
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Re: Is Christianity Destined to Become a Form of Deism?

Post by ThomasHobbes » August 10th, 2018, 11:00 am

anonymous66 wrote:
August 10th, 2018, 10:56 am
ThomasHobbes wrote:
August 10th, 2018, 10:50 am


My point was that there lies an alternative between chance and god. That alternative is Necessity, and requires no intention or randomness.
All I can say is that the more we understand the universe, the use of our knowledge of necessity has always given us the best answers.
Nothing happens by chance, and what kind of a bizarre god would create such absurdities?

Necessity is simply the unfolding of the universe in terms of it own order and character. As such it needs not explanation at all.
I'm looking for answers to questions like "why are we conscious?" and "how did life arise?" and "how is it that information became encoded in DNA (and before that RNA)?" All I can say is that "necessity" doesn't do much for me. Why is it necessary? How is it that it is necessary?
By what arrogance do you assume that any of these questions have the sort of answer you want?
All we can do is describe nature and how things come to be. For that you only need an understanding of necessity.

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ThomasHobbes
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Re: Is Christianity Destined to Become a Form of Deism?

Post by ThomasHobbes » August 10th, 2018, 11:01 am

anonymous66 wrote:
August 10th, 2018, 10:58 am
anonymous66 wrote:
August 10th, 2018, 10:56 am
All I can say is that "necessity" doesn't do much for me. Why is it necessary? How is it that it is necessary?
Necessity is no better an answer than "God did it" as far as I'm concerned.
Chance or God are absurdities.
The Universe just it. Take it as you find it.
Why invent crap?

anonymous66
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Re: Is Christianity Destined to Become a Form of Deism?

Post by anonymous66 » August 10th, 2018, 11:29 am

@ThomasHobbes
You misunderstand me. There is no "sort of answer that I want". I'd be satisfied with whatever the answer is. I just know that neither "necessity" or "God did it" or "it's just chance" is the answer.

Consider a time hundreds of years ago, when scientists were trying to figure out how it is that life came to be the way it is. The answer for many years was "God did it", but instead of just accepting that, some people kept looking. And now we understand evolution by means of natural selection.

Looking for answers instead accepting "God did it"or "it's necessary" or "it's just chance" is a way to increase our knowledge.

anonymous66
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Re: Is Christianity Destined to Become a Form of Deism?

Post by anonymous66 » August 10th, 2018, 11:41 am

ThomasHobbes wrote:
August 10th, 2018, 9:12 am
If Behe disagrees then he's a damn fool who can't read.
What is it that you propose he can't read?

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ThomasHobbes
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Re: Is Christianity Destined to Become a Form of Deism?

Post by ThomasHobbes » August 10th, 2018, 11:51 am

anonymous66 wrote:
August 10th, 2018, 11:29 am
@ThomasHobbes
You misunderstand me. There is no "sort of answer that I want". I'd be satisfied with whatever the answer is. I just know that neither "necessity" or "God did it" or "it's just chance" is the answer.
No you do not.

And you are in fact assuming that there is an answer. So tell me what sort of answer do you think there can be.
You can't even ask the question. Why would you expect an answer.

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ThomasHobbes
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Re: Is Christianity Destined to Become a Form of Deism?

Post by ThomasHobbes » August 10th, 2018, 11:52 am

anonymous66 wrote:
August 10th, 2018, 11:41 am
ThomasHobbes wrote:
August 10th, 2018, 9:12 am
If Behe disagrees then he's a damn fool who can't read.
What is it that you propose he can't read?
The only basis for being a Christian. If you can't be bothered to read the New Testament, or accept what is written there, then you can't claim to be a Christian.

... obviously.

anonymous66
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Re: Is Christianity Destined to Become a Form of Deism?

Post by anonymous66 » August 10th, 2018, 11:53 am

ThomasHobbes wrote:
August 10th, 2018, 11:51 am
anonymous66 wrote:
August 10th, 2018, 11:29 am
@ThomasHobbes
You misunderstand me. There is no "sort of answer that I want". I'd be satisfied with whatever the answer is. I just know that neither "necessity" or "God did it" or "it's just chance" is the answer.
No you do not.

And you are in fact assuming that there is an answer. So tell me what sort of answer do you think there can be.
You can't even ask the question. Why would you expect an answer.
How about responding to the rest of my post?

anonymous66
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Re: Is Christianity Destined to Become a Form of Deism?

Post by anonymous66 » August 10th, 2018, 11:55 am

ThomasHobbes wrote:
August 10th, 2018, 11:52 am
anonymous66 wrote:
August 10th, 2018, 11:41 am


What is it that you propose he can't read?
The only basis for being a Christian. If you can't be bothered to read the New Testament, or accept what is written there, then you can't claim to be a Christian.

... obviously.
You're going to have to spell it out. What makes you think Behe doesn't understand the New Testament?

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ThomasHobbes
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Re: Is Christianity Destined to Become a Form of Deism?

Post by ThomasHobbes » August 10th, 2018, 12:00 pm

anonymous66 wrote:
August 10th, 2018, 11:55 am
ThomasHobbes wrote:
August 10th, 2018, 11:52 am


The only basis for being a Christian. If you can't be bothered to read the New Testament, or accept what is written there, then you can't claim to be a Christian.

... obviously.
You're going to have to spell it out. What makes you think Behe doesn't understand the New Testament?
I am saying that he cannot claim to be a Christian and a Deist at the same time.
What do you think "Christ"-ian implies? How can a Deity who left the universe to cruise at the beginning of time without further intervention "annoint" a king or "messiah"?
How can an non-interventionist god have created a religion?

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