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Did Jesus really need to die for our sins?

Discuss philosophical questions regarding theism (and atheism), and discuss religion as it relates to philosophy. This includes any philosophical discussions that happen to be about god, gods, or a 'higher power' or the belief of them. This also generally includes philosophical topics about organized or ritualistic mysticism or about organized, common or ritualistic beliefs in the existence of supernatural phenomenon.
Belindi
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Re: Did Jesus really need to die for our sins?

Post by Belindi » November 23rd, 2018, 5:39 pm

I wrote "the good" . Greta in effect points out that 'the good' is open to interpretation.

The Jesus of the Gospels listed what ' the good ' means in practice. There's enough in the Gospels for our present day interpretation of it to move with the the times always within parameters of universality and altruism. The circumstances surrounding the torture and death of Jesus as reported are likewise open to interpretation. That he died as a sort of human sacrifice is a superstition.

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Greta
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Re: Did Jesus really need to die for our sins?

Post by Greta » November 23rd, 2018, 9:39 pm

Belindi wrote:
November 23rd, 2018, 5:39 pm
That he died as a sort of human sacrifice is a superstition.
It is also the only narrative that one ever hears in relation to the crucifixion.

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tmore12344
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Re: Did Jesus really need to die for our sins?

Post by tmore12344 » November 24th, 2018, 1:27 am

How do you define sin? What is sin? Does sin have consequences? Do you believe there is a spiritual, transcendent dimension to life?
Do we exist beyond the grave? Is our life in an eternal context?

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Re: Did Jesus really need to die for our sins?

Post by Belindi » November 24th, 2018, 7:11 am

Greta wrote:
November 23rd, 2018, 9:39 pm
Belindi wrote:
November 23rd, 2018, 5:39 pm
That he died as a sort of human sacrifice is a superstition.
It is also the only narrative that one ever hears in relation to the crucifixion.
We are reading other narratives in our little philosophy forum. I think it's a shame that most people aren't interested enough to think about religion's place in our societies and our lives. There have been rare occasions when a religious person has done a lot of good and sometimes suffered for it. Babies and bath water. I think that we all need stories (i.e.myths) to illustrate the moral beliefs that we hold in common. I daresay that most of us here would rid religions of human or indeed animal blood sacrifices.

Blood sacrifices as appeasements of a God's wrath are relics of a bygone age. I reckon that most of us at Philosophy Club don't believe in that sort of a God.

One big problem about the sacred texts is that they tell the stories of blood sacrifice and virgin birth and resurrection as though they were actual history. Many if not most religious preachers preach these stories as if they were historically true. For most Christians the Jesus of history and the Christ of faith are held to be the same.Another way of saying my last sentence is that most Christians believe the Gospels to be literally true. There are some religious nuts who believe the whole Bible to be literally true, often with dire political consequences .

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Re: Did Jesus really need to die for our sins?

Post by Belindi » November 24th, 2018, 7:20 am

Tmore12344, 'sin' is a word from religious talk. The words 'sins' and 'sin' refer to religious teachings.

Some people believe that so-called sins , as listed here or there in The Bible and other sacred texts such as the Koran, are the same as actual evils or human wickedness.

Philosophers tend not to debate sin as sin but tend more to talk about how to live a good life.

Life after death is addressed by philosophers as an adjunct to whether or not a soul (whatever that may be) is a separate substance from the physical body. This is one of the topics of metaphysics. Metaphysics is a subdivision of philosophy.

Eternity is studied within religions, fine arts, poetry, psychology and ( arguably ) mathematics and physics.

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Re: Did Jesus really need to die for our sins?

Post by Greta » November 24th, 2018, 3:21 pm

Belindi wrote:
November 24th, 2018, 7:11 am
Greta wrote:
November 23rd, 2018, 9:39 pm

It is also the only narrative that one ever hears in relation to the crucifixion.
We are reading other narratives in our little philosophy forum. I think it's a shame that most people aren't interested enough to think about religion's place in our societies and our lives. There have been rare occasions when a religious person has done a lot of good and sometimes suffered for it. Babies and bath water. I think that we all need stories (i.e.myths) to illustrate the moral beliefs that we hold in common. I daresay that most of us here would rid religions of human or indeed animal blood sacrifices.

Blood sacrifices as appeasements of a God's wrath are relics of a bygone age. I reckon that most of us at Philosophy Club don't believe in that sort of a God.

One big problem about the sacred texts is that they tell the stories of blood sacrifice and virgin birth and resurrection as though they were actual history. Many if not most religious preachers preach these stories as if they were historically true. For most Christians the Jesus of history and the Christ of faith are held to be the same.Another way of saying my last sentence is that most Christians believe the Gospels to be literally true. There are some religious nuts who believe the whole Bible to be literally true, often with dire political consequences .
Sure, we enthusiasts might be across the metaphors, Belinda, but my point was that the vast majority of believers people are not.

The shame is not with people's attitudes towards religion but the corrupt running of religions that replaced spirituality with conservative politics.

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Re: Did Jesus really need to die for our sins?

Post by Belindi » November 25th, 2018, 9:09 am

Greta wrote:
Sure, we enthusiasts might be across the metaphors, Belinda, but my point was that the vast majority of believers people are not.

The shame is not with people's attitudes towards religion but the corrupt running of religions that replaced spirituality with conservative politics.
Yes, and I don't think that any people or any person can get through life without myths. Take the Donald Trump myth for instance.If there isn't a good enough myth to counter that one the Donald Trump myth takes hold of people's imaginations and they adopt Trumpism as their ideology.

Similarly with extreme and literalist Protestants in Northern Ireland. Many of these people are what my Belfast Auntie called 'rowdies'. Their leaders in the DUP are ideologists and religious fanatics. The Irish Catholics in their turn believe in the mythology of what Cromwell did to Ireland. I'd like to see children being educated in the same schools and taught a mythology about mutual tolerance and ordinary everyday kindness and patience. The Gospels and Jesus himself are seriously out of date , often scorned, and that I think is mainly why Christianity is losing its grip on the public imagination. We have new heroes such as Mandela, Martin Luther King, and Michelle Obama. It's odd that the goodies have a hard time becoming mythologised while the baddies like Trump get to be popular. Very often the good people cannot become mythologised as they are intrinsically modest personalities.

I think that fiction as books, film plays, theatre, and fine art are the best media for a mythology of peace, world brotherhood, equal prosperity, and lets face it fun. We all need to tell ourselves stories.

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