Pantheism

Discuss philosophical questions regarding theism (and atheism), and discuss religion as it relates to philosophy. This includes any philosophical discussions that happen to be about god, gods, or a 'higher power' or the belief of them. This also generally includes philosophical topics about organized or ritualistic mysticism or about organized, common or ritualistic beliefs in the existence of supernatural phenomenon.
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Belindi
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Re: Pantheism

Post by Belindi »

Consul wrote: May 27th, 2019, 6:04 pm
Michael McMahon wrote: May 25th, 2019, 6:44 amPantheism, on the other hand, avoids these pitfalls. It's simply the belief that a single energy lives through all conscious entities.
What's the point of calling such a(n impersonal) cosmic energy a god or God?!

"[P]antheism is a concept that invalidates itself, since the concept of a God presupposes as its essential correlative a world different from him. If, on the other hand, the world itself is to take over his role, there remains simply an absolute world without God, and so pantheism is only a euphemism for atheism. …But even the assumption of some cause of the world different therefrom is still not theism. For this demands a world-cause that is not only different from the world, but is intelligent, that is to say, knows and wills, and so is personal and consequently also individual; it is only such a cause that is indicated by the word 'God'. An impersonal God is no God at all, but merely a word wrongly used, a misconception, a contradictio in adjecto, a shibboleth for professors of philosophy, who, having had to give up the thing, are anxious to slip through with the word."


(Schopenhauer, Arthur. "Fragments for the History of Philosophy." In Parerga and Paralipomena. Vol. 1. 1851. Translated by E. F. J. Payne. Oxford: Oxford University Press, 1974. pp. 114-5)
I agree. Order is either extramental or it's created by consciousnesses.

However, if consciousnesses are not selves but are bundles of experiences then absolute experience is more than just a possibility. This is a synthesis of pantheism and absolute idealism.
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Sy Borg
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Re: Pantheism

Post by Sy Borg »

Belindi wrote: September 23rd, 2021, 7:21 am
Consul wrote: May 27th, 2019, 6:04 pm
Michael McMahon wrote: May 25th, 2019, 6:44 amPantheism, on the other hand, avoids these pitfalls. It's simply the belief that a single energy lives through all conscious entities.
What's the point of calling such a(n impersonal) cosmic energy a god or God?!

"[P]antheism is a concept that invalidates itself, since the concept of a God presupposes as its essential correlative a world different from him. If, on the other hand, the world itself is to take over his role, there remains simply an absolute world without God, and so pantheism is only a euphemism for atheism. …But even the assumption of some cause of the world different therefrom is still not theism. For this demands a world-cause that is not only different from the world, but is intelligent, that is to say, knows and wills, and so is personal and consequently also individual; it is only such a cause that is indicated by the word 'God'. An impersonal God is no God at all, but merely a word wrongly used, a misconception, a contradictio in adjecto, a shibboleth for professors of philosophy, who, having had to give up the thing, are anxious to slip through with the word."


(Schopenhauer, Arthur. "Fragments for the History of Philosophy." In Parerga and Paralipomena. Vol. 1. 1851. Translated by E. F. J. Payne. Oxford: Oxford University Press, 1974. pp. 114-5)
I agree. Order is either extramental or it's created by consciousnesses.

However, if consciousnesses are not selves but are bundles of experiences then absolute experience is more than just a possibility. This is a synthesis of pantheism and absolute idealism.
I would think pantheism is as close to deism as it is to atheism.

As you know, I like all of the "pan-" concepts, be it -vitalism, -panpsychism -theism, -vitalism, which is not to say I believe in them, because I believe in almost nothing these days. There is precious little one can be certain about when the Standard Model has been found to have many significant explanatory gaps.

What would the signs be if we lived inside a living system, or a conscious one? We might expect inconsistencies, unexpected results at large scales. That is certainly the case, given the significant explanatory gaps left by the standard model of physics. However, quantum physics is a young science, just a century old, so the gaps may be explainable via mechanistic means, which of course is the usual expectation.

To me, pan-concepts are one more "watch this space" issue.
Tegularius
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Re: Pantheism

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Pantheism is merely a way of including god or making it immanent without being religious about it. It's a philosophical concept, not a religious one. It serves no personal or ecumenical purpose which is foundational to theism. The Pantheist god has no name, only qualities which denote the cosmic.
The earth has a skin and that skin has diseases; one of its diseases is called man ... Nietzsche
Belindi
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Re: Pantheism

Post by Belindi »

Tegularius wrote: September 23rd, 2021, 9:14 pm Pantheism is merely a way of including god or making it immanent without being religious about it. It's a philosophical concept, not a religious one. It serves no personal or ecumenical purpose which is foundational to theism. The Pantheist god has no name, only qualities which denote the cosmic.
It is a way of including the Absolute without the Absolute's also having the personal God persona.
Some people are sort of religious about it.(https://pantheism.net/ )Spinozan pantheism is founded upon reason, and points to the ethics of that freedom which reasoning gives to the individual who reasons adequately.
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Sculptor1
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Re: Pantheism

Post by Sculptor1 »

Pantheism is a way to erroneously call the Universe god.

Spionza was an atheist trying to save his own neck by producing a cosmology what was at once honest but would not lead him to the pyre.Despite that the Jewish authorities cursed him with a Cherem. And no Jew was aloud to assist him or even talk to him for the rest of his life.
Don't you just love religious people.
Tegularius
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Re: Pantheism

Post by Tegularius »

Belindi wrote: September 24th, 2021, 4:52 am
Tegularius wrote: September 23rd, 2021, 9:14 pm Pantheism is merely a way of including god or making it immanent without being religious about it. It's a philosophical concept, not a religious one. It serves no personal or ecumenical purpose which is foundational to theism. The Pantheist god has no name, only qualities which denote the cosmic.
It is a way of including the Absolute without the Absolute's also having the personal God persona.
Some people are sort of religious about it.(https://pantheism.net/ )Spinozan pantheism is founded upon reason, and points to the ethics of that freedom which reasoning gives to the individual who reasons adequately.
Whatever can be explained is best understood without including any "Absolute" connotations, since no one who ever waked the planet has an idea of what that concept actually means compared to what is inferred. Spinoza's pantheism is indeed founded upon reason, meaning the human ability to reason, which has nothing absolute about it. It's not unusual for meaning to get lost whenever the Absolute is invoked.
The earth has a skin and that skin has diseases; one of its diseases is called man ... Nietzsche
Slavedevice
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Re: Pantheism

Post by Slavedevice »

I believe we are PART of GOD. I don’t believe in heaven or hell in the biblical sense. I do believe the soul goes somewhere after death. We all have good and bad in us. Reducing pain in the world is good and evil is vice versa.
Steve3007
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Re: Pantheism

Post by Steve3007 »

Slavedevice wrote:Reducing pain in the world is good and evil is vice versa.
So you're a Utilitarian? Is that pain wherever it's possible for pain to occur, or pain in specific individuals or species?
Slavedevice
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Re: Pantheism

Post by Slavedevice »

I guess you could say I’m Utilitarian! I say reducing pain anywhere/in anything it’s possible to occur. Let me give a good example: the Catholic Church’s no birth control policy causes overpopulation and poverty. In my view, the Catholic Church is EVIL!
Steve3007
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Re: Pantheism

Post by Steve3007 »

Slavedevice wrote:I guess you could say I’m Utilitarian! I say reducing pain anywhere/in anything it’s possible to occur....
So, one of the most common moral dilemmas here is where reducing pain in one potential pain experiencer increases pain in another - or generally where you have to weigh up the pros and cons of a course of action.
...Let me give a good example: the Catholic Church’s no birth control policy causes overpopulation and poverty. In my view, the Catholic Church is EVIL!
OK, so you think no birth control > overpopulation > poverty > pain. Fair enough. But what if the Catholic Church also does lots of other stuff which alleviates pain? Do you only count the pain-causing activities of any given individual or organization?
Slavedevice
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Re: Pantheism

Post by Slavedevice »

The math says the net results of overpopulation far outweigh some food drives, etc
Steve3007
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Re: Pantheism

Post by Steve3007 »

Slavedevice wrote:The math says the net results of overpopulation far outweigh some food drives, etc
OK, so you weigh up the extent to which an action causes pain against the extent to which it alleviates pain, and mention maths, to figure out whether it's a good or evil action. That, I think, does indeed make you a Utilitarian.
I say reducing pain anywhere/in anything it’s possible to occur.
So you're a vegetarian, yes?
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Re: Pantheism

Post by Michael McMahon »

"Deists asserted that reason could find evidence of God in nature and that God had created the world and then left it to operate under the natural laws devised by God."

Deism doesn't necessitate an omnipresent God. If God told us at death that he was a million years old, would we reject him because he wasn't infinitely old? After all there isn't a spiritual obligation that God has to equate to literal infinity. It's like the superficial difference between a millionaire and a billionaire! It's possible to interpret a deistic God as being transient. In this comparison God has existed in the past and He will exist again in the future but not in the present. This would be like a parent that leaves their children to mind themselves for awhile until they return later. So we'd be left entirely to our own devices! God would exist not only in a different spatial realm but also in a different temporal realm so to speak. It seems to me that people pray to God not only out of His imagined power but rather out of their belief in His omni-benevolence and solace during our death when we're at our most helpless. Although a hypothetical divine being doesn't technically have to be omnipotent to help us into an afterlife. All it'd require is probably some degree of supernatural control over our consciousness and time perception. Do deists think we'll meet God after this life or perhaps would it be intermittently after several reincarnations or else not even until the end of the universe? Overall deism sounds like an intriguing hybrid belief that captures some of the contemplative transcendence of religion while preserving the energetic and spontaneous "you only live once" mindset of atheism.
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Re: Pantheism

Post by Michael McMahon »

A deistic God wouldn't of had to create the universe on His own. A God that merely had a say in the creation of the Big Bang and helped out a small bit would still be compatible with deism.
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Re: Pantheism

Post by Michael McMahon »

The ability to control anger is a paradoxical source of strength. Anger is a volatile emotion because it can be the source of both good and evil. Anger is needed to defend yourself and for perseverance but the same emotion can be used for aggression. Having high self-restraint is therefore a spiritual virtue because you can experience an emotion and tame it for when it's appropriate. For example we are told that Jesus had to resist the temptations on offer from the devil for 40 days and nights in the desert. In other words he reflected the anger of the devil back against the devil and against evil itself. One way to define God is that God is the enemy of the devil. Therefore if someone were to know the devil then they'll be able to know what God is like by inverting the devil through backwards reasoning. God is the opposite of the devil! So if someone tells you they know the devil then I suppose they're either a saint fighting the devil or a demon siding with the devil! Jesus rebelled against Ancient Rome which was a devil of sorts. Rome was unlike recent colonial powers in that Rome ruled for 1000s of years and had plundering and sadism as their explicit goal.
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