Pantheism

Discuss philosophical questions regarding theism (and atheism), and discuss religion as it relates to philosophy. This includes any philosophical discussions that happen to be about god, gods, or a 'higher power' or the belief of them. This also generally includes philosophical topics about organized or ritualistic mysticism or about organized, common or ritualistic beliefs in the existence of supernatural phenomenon.
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Michael McMahon
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Re: Pantheism

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Sy Borg wrote: March 11th, 2022, 12:08 am The other day I stumbled upon this video representation of what the angels of the top tier of heaven would look like as per the Bible's descriptions - in order - the Cherubim (not a chubby baby with wings!), Thrones/Wheels and Seraphim. They are almost Lovecraftian! Note the human in there used for scale.
Heaven has been interpreted in numerous ways through the different religions in terms of a peaceful life after death. A secular version of heaven is a heaven on earth. Utopias have failed in the past due to an inherent limitation of resources but it might be possible to conceive of heaven in a futuristic or idealistic way. There are so many speculative ideas in theoretical physics like mind uploading and simulated realities that being immersed in a heavenly plane might not be too unrealistic even if it's only temporary. The scene of the multi-eyed angel reminded me of fractal geometry which is itself an expanding sphere of knowledge. The world is always improving despite the amount of wars in the world and so reincarnation could also be interpreted as going to a better place in the sense of being reborn into a more enlightened future. Future generations might also have an improved appreciation of international morality owing to the increasing interconnectedness of world affairs and cosmopolitanism. Our tolerance is ever-increasing due to an abundance of religious teachings, political debates and academic investigations.
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Re: Pantheism

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Sy Borg wrote: March 11th, 2022, 12:08 am The many-headed Cherubim were the guards of Eden, keeping Adam and Eve and their descendants out (I don't know why they are erroneously depicted as the Roman deity, Cupid).
The Ancient Greeks had diverse beliefs about the afterlife. Elysium was one plane of heaven in their faith system and I was intrigued to learn that an individual could rest there and be reincarnated at a later date. If I had a choice in what happens to me after death that's probably what I'd choose; spend a few months in heaven and be reincarnated into a new being whenever I get bored of being happy!

https://howtodiscuss.com/t/elysian-fields/45837
"While the subterranean Elysian Fields was a more comfortable and enjoyable afterlife than the Asphodel Meadows, it was still imperfect. Although some sunlight reached it, it was never as warm and bright as the upper world. There was no refreshing breeze and the waters of the River Lethe could not be touched without bringing the curse of forgetfulness. Residents of the underworld Elysium could also see, just across the river, the constant darkness and misery of the rest of the underworld. Close by, the residents of Tartarus underwent constant, brutal punishments.
A foreign concept from the east finally found a way to reconcile the different tiers of the afterlife. By the 5th century BC, the concept of reincarnation had found its way into the Greek world. Contact with religions of the Near East and India had introduced the belief that the soul could return from the underworld into a new life.The Greeks, as they had with so many myths before, adopted this idea and incorporated it into their existing cosmology. Reincarnation provided a possible way out of the underworld.
Probably influenced by Hindu and Buddhist beliefs, some Greeks began to believe that souls reincarnated from the underworld Elysium might eventually be able to earn their way onto the Islands of the Blessed.The idea developed that if a soul was virtuous enough to earn a place in the Elysian Fields after three incarnations, they would be elevated to the Islands of the Blessed. This would free them not only from the gloom of Hades’ realm but also from the cycle of reincarnation."
Michael McMahon
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Re: Pantheism

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"The problem when studying historical events is that you know how the story ends, and it’s impossible to un-remember what you know today when thinking about the past. It’s hard to imagine alternative paths of history when the actual path is already known. So things always look more inevitable than they were."
https://www.collaborativefund.com/blog/ ... nevitable/

One reason to appreciate the past prophets of major religions is that they're all exceptionally unique. For example there won't be another prophet who can convert most of Europe the way Jesus did. Sometimes we take society's good will for granted simply because we can't fathom what an evil version of it would look like. We don't need to spend time worrying about what would've happened had the south won the US Civil War because the consequences would be unimaginably far-reaching. We'd essentially be living in a different world where nihilism and misanthropy was the norm. Likewise we don't really know what today's world would look like had the familiar religions never been created.
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Sy Borg
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Re: Pantheism

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Michael McMahon wrote: March 11th, 2022, 2:35 am
Sy Borg wrote: March 11th, 2022, 12:08 am The other day I stumbled upon this video representation of what the angels of the top tier of heaven would look like as per the Bible's descriptions - in order - the Cherubim (not a chubby baby with wings!), Thrones/Wheels and Seraphim. They are almost Lovecraftian! Note the human in there used for scale.
Heaven has been interpreted in numerous ways through the different religions in terms of a peaceful life after death. A secular version of heaven is a heaven on earth. Utopias have failed in the past due to an inherent limitation of resources but it might be possible to conceive of heaven in a futuristic or idealistic way. There are so many speculative ideas in theoretical physics like mind uploading and simulated realities that being immersed in a heavenly plane might not be too unrealistic even if it's only temporary.
The question of whether digitising minds is possible or not is arguably humanity's most important philosophical question. I have wondered if that's the answer to the Fermi Paradox, where alien civilisations realise that travelling interstellar distances is too hard so they simply retreat into a virtual world, in which case they could be living digital lives underground on a planet was had since become lifeless.
Michael McMahon wrote: March 11th, 2022, 2:35 amThe scene of the multi-eyed angel reminded me of fractal geometry which is itself an expanding sphere of knowledge.
People under the effects of DMT have reported seeing fractal geometric patterns. The minute I saw the Throne I figured that some ancient characters we hitting the herbs (or fungi).

Michael McMahon wrote: March 11th, 2022, 2:35 amThe world is always improving despite the amount of wars in the world and so reincarnation could also be interpreted as going to a better place in the sense of being reborn into a more enlightened future. Future generations might also have an improved appreciation of international morality owing to the increasing interconnectedness of world affairs and cosmopolitanism. Our tolerance is ever-increasing due to an abundance of religious teachings, political debates and academic investigations.
An issue I have with pantheism is that the universe is temporal. Let's say parts of humanity (and beyond) continue to improve on standard metrics of societal wellbeing. In a billion years the Sun will have heated up so much that the oceans will evaporate. Of course, if progress continues for that long, by then that won't be a problem. However, over deep time space will present ever more challenges - the death of a planet's star, galactic collisions, the gradual death of all stars (trillions of years) etc etc. Eventually the challenges to ultra advanced entities will become ever more stern.

There will be two possibilities. 1. God/universe can die or 2. A surviving entity or entities can thrive on just the energy of empty space, in which case it or they might as well be considered a god, or God.
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Re: Pantheism

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Sy Borg wrote:
An issue I have with pantheism is that the universe is temporal. Let's say parts of humanity (and beyond) continue to improve on standard metrics of societal wellbeing. In a billion years the Sun will have heated up so much that the oceans will evaporate. Of course, if progress continues for that long, by then that won't be a problem. However, over deep time space will present ever more challenges - the death of a planet's star, galactic collisions, the gradual death of all stars (trillions of years) etc etc. Eventually the challenges to ultra advanced entities will become ever more stern.

There will be two possibilities. 1. God/universe can die or 2. A surviving entity or entities can thrive on just the energy of empty space, in which case it or they might as well be considered a god, or God.
I had the same issue with pantheism, that the universe is temporal. However I can answer this issue when I remember it's not true that subjects and objects exist as ontic categories, and that time is mind -dependent whereas experiences can transcend time and space and become Absolute Experience. I guess you, SB, know peak expereince.

Your possibility 2. is correct although I'd not have used the phrase "empty space".
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Re: Pantheism

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Belindi wrote: March 12th, 2022, 6:33 am Sy Borg wrote:
An issue I have with pantheism is that the universe is temporal. Let's say parts of humanity (and beyond) continue to improve on standard metrics of societal wellbeing. In a billion years the Sun will have heated up so much that the oceans will evaporate. Of course, if progress continues for that long, by then that won't be a problem. However, over deep time space will present ever more challenges - the death of a planet's star, galactic collisions, the gradual death of all stars (trillions of years) etc etc. Eventually the challenges to ultra advanced entities will become ever more stern.

There will be two possibilities. 1. God/universe can die or 2. A surviving entity or entities can thrive on just the energy of empty space, in which case it or they might as well be considered a god, or God.
I had the same issue with pantheism, that the universe is temporal. However I can answer this issue when I remember it's not true that subjects and objects exist as ontic categories, and that time is mind -dependent whereas experiences can transcend time and space and become Absolute Experience. I guess you, SB, know peak experience.
Being a creature of space and time, my interpretation of timelessness is inertia. Without time, nothing happens. That may or may not be a godlike quality, depending on the theology.

Belindi wrote: March 12th, 2022, 6:33 amYour possibility 2. is correct although I'd not have used the phrase "empty space".
I wanted to differentiate between the space that we are familiar with and the primordeal/posthumous space before the big bang and after universal cooling.
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Re: Pantheism

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Sy Borg wrote:
An issue I have with pantheism is that the universe is temporal. Let's say parts of humanity (and beyond) continue to improve on standard metrics of societal wellbeing. In a billion years the Sun will have heated up so much that the oceans will evaporate. Of course, if progress continues for that long, by then that won't be a problem. However, over deep time space will present ever more challenges - the death of a planet's star, galactic collisions, the gradual death of all stars (trillions of years) etc etc. Eventually the challenges to ultra advanced entities will become ever more stern.

There will be two possibilities. 1. God/universe can die or 2. A surviving entity or entities can thrive on just the energy of empty space, in which case it or they might as well be considered a god, or God.
Belinda wrote:
I had the same issue with pantheism, that the universe is temporal. However I can answer this issue when I remember it's not true that subjects and objects exist as ontic categories, and that time is mind -dependent whereas experiences can transcend time and space and become Absolute Experience. I guess you, SB, know peak experience.
Sy Borg wrote:
Being a creature of space and time, my interpretation of timelessness is inertia. Without time, nothing happens. That may or may not be a godlike quality, depending on the theology.
I'd rather say without time everything happens simultaneously.

If your formulation is correct then the universe is mind-independent. If mine is correct then the universe is mind-dependent.

Belinda wrote:
Your possibility 2. is correct although I'd not have used the phrase "empty space".

Sy Borg wrote;
I wanted to differentiate between the space that we are familiar with and the primordeal/posthumous space before the big bang and after universal cooling.
[/quote]

Fair enough. I don't know the best word for the mind-dependent version of what was out there before minds existed and after minds don't exist. The philosopher I read intermittently calls it "the plenum".
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Re: Pantheism

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Belindi wrote: March 13th, 2022, 6:09 am
Being a creature of space and time, my interpretation of timelessness is inertia. Without time, nothing happens. That may or may not be a godlike quality, depending on the theology.
I'd rather say without time everything happens simultaneously.

If your formulation is correct then the universe is mind-independent. If mine is correct then the universe is mind-dependent.
The universe may be mind-independent now but will later become mind-dependent, eg. life, or post-life entities, find a way to survive the heat death of the universe.

Belinda wrote:
Your possibility 2. is correct although I'd not have used the phrase "empty space".
Belindi wrote: March 13th, 2022, 6:09 am
I wanted to differentiate between the space that we are familiar with and the primordeal/posthumous space before the big bang and after universal cooling.
Fair enough. I don't know the best word for the mind-dependent version of what was out there before minds existed and after minds don't exist. The philosopher I read intermittently calls it "the plenum".
I've not heard that term in context before. Basically everything rather than nothing.

I don't discount a mind-dependent universe before the big bang but, based on current knowledge, a mind-independent universe is less speculative.

Thing is, if this is, say, the billionth universe in a sequence of big bangs, there would seem a fair probability that entities could have survived the end of their universe and permeated subsequent ones like deities, but that is even more speculative!
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Re: Pantheism

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Sy Borg wrote: March 13th, 2022, 6:26 am
Belindi wrote: March 13th, 2022, 6:09 am
Being a creature of space and time, my interpretation of timelessness is inertia. Without time, nothing happens. That may or may not be a godlike quality, depending on the theology.
I'd rather say without time everything happens simultaneously.

If your formulation is correct then the universe is mind-independent. If mine is correct then the universe is mind-dependent.
The universe may be mind-independent now but will later become mind-dependent, eg. life, or post-life entities, find a way to survive the heat death of the universe.

Belinda wrote:
Your possibility 2. is correct although I'd not have used the phrase "empty space".
Belindi wrote: March 13th, 2022, 6:09 am
I wanted to differentiate between the space that we are familiar with and the primordeal/posthumous space before the big bang and after universal cooling.
Fair enough. I don't know the best word for the mind-dependent version of what was out there before minds existed and after minds don't exist. The philosopher I read intermittently calls it "the plenum".
I've not heard that term in context before. Basically everything rather than nothing.

I don't discount a mind-dependent universe before the big bang but, based on current knowledge, a mind-independent universe is less speculative.

Thing is, if this is, say, the billionth universe in a sequence of big bangs, there would seem a fair probability that entities could have survived the end of their universe and permeated subsequent ones like deities, but that is even more speculative!
Regarding 'the plenum' as "everything rather than nothing". Yes, but an undifferentiated everything until living minds sort the plenum into things.

Regarding " permeated subsequent ones like deities" , subsequent refers to time sequence, and sequence in time is a mind-dependent idea. Idealism(immaterialism) is more speculative than physicalism: mind-dependent is more speculative than mind-independent.
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Re: Pantheism

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Belindi wrote: March 13th, 2022, 7:37 am
Sy Borg wrote: March 13th, 2022, 6:26 am
Belindi wrote: March 13th, 2022, 6:09 am
Being a creature of space and time, my interpretation of timelessness is inertia. Without time, nothing happens. That may or may not be a godlike quality, depending on the theology.
I'd rather say without time everything happens simultaneously.

If your formulation is correct then the universe is mind-independent. If mine is correct then the universe is mind-dependent.
The universe may be mind-independent now but will later become mind-dependent, eg. life, or post-life entities, find a way to survive the heat death of the universe.

Belinda wrote:
Your possibility 2. is correct although I'd not have used the phrase "empty space".
Belindi wrote: March 13th, 2022, 6:09 am
I wanted to differentiate between the space that we are familiar with and the primordeal/posthumous space before the big bang and after universal cooling.
Fair enough. I don't know the best word for the mind-dependent version of what was out there before minds existed and after minds don't exist. The philosopher I read intermittently calls it "the plenum".
I've not heard that term in context before. Basically everything rather than nothing.

I don't discount a mind-dependent universe before the big bang but, based on current knowledge, a mind-independent universe is less speculative.

Thing is, if this is, say, the billionth universe in a sequence of big bangs, there would seem a fair probability that entities could have survived the end of their universe and permeated subsequent ones like deities, but that is even more speculative!
Regarding 'the plenum' as "everything rather than nothing". Yes, but an undifferentiated everything until living minds sort the plenum into things.

Regarding " permeated subsequent ones like deities" , subsequent refers to time sequence, and sequence in time is a mind-dependent idea. Idealism(immaterialism) is more speculative than physicalism: mind-dependent is more speculative than mind-independent.
Yes, assuming the universe to be mind-independent seems most logical, if existence is indeed logical.

Thanks for the plenum description. That makes sense. Reality at our scale would be a chaotic mess if our brains did not filter most of it out.
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Re: Pantheism

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Sy Borg wrote:
Thanks for the plenum description. That makes sense. Reality at our scale would be a chaotic mess if our brains did not filter most of it out.
"Caverns measureless to man" (Coleridge)
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Re: Pantheism

Post by ernestm »

Michael McMahon wrote: March 11th, 2022, 2:58 am
Sy Borg wrote: March 11th, 2022, 12:08 am The many-headed Cherubim were the guards of Eden, keeping Adam and Eve and their descendants out (I don't know why they are erroneously depicted as the Roman deity, Cupid).
The Ancient Greeks had diverse beliefs about the afterlife. Elysium was one plane of heaven in their faith system and I was intrigued to learn that an individual could rest there and be reincarnated at a later date. If I had a choice in what happens to me after death that's probably what I'd choose; spend a few months in heaven and be reincarnated into a new being whenever I get bored of being happy!

https://howtodiscuss.com/t/elysian-fields/45837
"While the subterranean Elysian Fields was a more comfortable and enjoyable afterlife than the Asphodel Meadows, it was still imperfect. Although some sunlight reached it, it was never as warm and bright as the upper world. There was no refreshing breeze and the waters of the River Lethe could not be touched without bringing the curse of forgetfulness. Residents of the underworld Elysium could also see, just across the river, the constant darkness and misery of the rest of the underworld. Close by, the residents of Tartarus underwent constant, brutal punishments.
A foreign concept from the east finally found a way to reconcile the different tiers of the afterlife. By the 5th century BC, the concept of reincarnation had found its way into the Greek world. Contact with religions of the Near East and India had introduced the belief that the soul could return from the underworld into a new life.The Greeks, as they had with so many myths before, adopted this idea and incorporated it into their existing cosmology. Reincarnation provided a possible way out of the underworld.
Probably influenced by Hindu and Buddhist beliefs, some Greeks began to believe that souls reincarnated from the underworld Elysium might eventually be able to earn their way onto the Islands of the Blessed.The idea developed that if a soul was virtuous enough to earn a place in the Elysian Fields after three incarnations, they would be elevated to the Islands of the Blessed. This would free them not only from the gloom of Hades’ realm but also from the cycle of reincarnation."
Well, most people Ive talked with before have thought the heroes who actually made it into Elysium would be rather glad to drink the waters of Lethe. After all, the heroes in Elysium certainly enjoyed the forgetfulness of wine intoxication in their own lives.

The Greeks didn't see the different parts of hades as conflicting with each other, and there were many. Most notable is the river of Styx between life and the afterlife. People who weren't buried properly never made it across the Styx at all, so there's also a huge pile of lost souls on its near bank. There's a place where Odysseus could converse with some of them, as well as a passage to and from life which was found by Orpheus. Also of note, the court where souls are judged is not in the afterlife: it is in this life, in the temple of Apollo, as described by Aeschylus.
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Re: Pantheism

Post by Raymond »

I subscribe to pantheism. The universe is a collective realization of the gods in heaven. The universe is just a carbon copy of heaven. All universal life reflects the lives of the gods. Virus gods, rabbit gods, viper gods, even hominid gods were involved. Heavenly gods playing their game, became bored with their eternal play. They longed for just doing nothing and look at the play. Which they do now. So let's play love and hate as they used to do. Let's givem a nice show. But let's avoid some stupid games the hominid gods played (there's the moral!).
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Re: Pantheism

Post by Belindi »

Raymond wrote: March 31st, 2022, 5:53 pm I subscribe to pantheism. The universe is a collective realization of the gods in heaven. The universe is just a carbon copy of heaven. All universal life reflects the lives of the gods. Virus gods, rabbit gods, viper gods, even hominid gods were involved. Heavenly gods playing their game, became bored with their eternal play. They longed for just doing nothing and look at the play. Which they do now. So let's play love and hate as they used to do. Let's givem a nice show. But let's avoid some stupid games the hominid gods played (there's the moral!).
Pantheism is the theory that Nature and God are the same being which is cause of itself.
Raymond
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Re: Pantheism

Post by Raymond »

Belindi wrote: April 1st, 2022, 7:05 am
Raymond wrote: March 31st, 2022, 5:53 pm I subscribe to pantheism. The universe is a collective realization of the gods in heaven. The universe is just a carbon copy of heaven. All universal life reflects the lives of the gods. Virus gods, rabbit gods, viper gods, even hominid gods were involved. Heavenly gods playing their game, became bored with their eternal play. They longed for just doing nothing and look at the play. Which they do now. So let's play love and hate as they used to do. Let's givem a nice show. But let's avoid some stupid games the hominid gods played (there's the moral!).
Pantheism is the theory that Nature and God are the same being which is cause of itself.
Then I subscribe almost. The universe is a copy of heaven. I don't identify them with each other though. The gods created the fundamentals of the universe. Maybe they watch it now. We are not gods, and nor are other creatures. Which isn't to say life is not divine. On the contrary!
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