Do you think a theist can understand atheist?

Discuss philosophical questions regarding theism (and atheism), and discuss religion as it relates to philosophy. This includes any philosophical discussions that happen to be about god, gods, or a 'higher power' or the belief of them. This also generally includes philosophical topics about organized or ritualistic mysticism or about organized, common or ritualistic beliefs in the existence of supernatural phenomenon.
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GaryLouisSmith
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Do you think a theist can understand atheist?

Post by GaryLouisSmith »

I think many atheists believe that a theist is merely someone who has failed to think through matters of existence. Perhaps a theist is mentally ill or mentally inadequate for thought. Or he is afraid and worried about what his acquaintances will think. Or perhaps he is just mentally lazy. What about evidence? Why can't a theist see the lack of evidence for a God? Surely, he muses, if the theist truly looked at the lack of evidence, he would, if honest, change his mind? He will never understand atheism.
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Re: Do you think a theist can understand atheist?

Post by Alias »

Of course he won't. He doesn't want to. He's been conditioned not to want to.
I wouldn't try to change his mind.
If it's working, it will change itself when a confluence of events forces it to confront reality.
Those who can induce you to believe absurdities can induce you to commit atrocities. - Voltaire
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Felix
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Re: Do you think a theist can understand atheist?

Post by Felix »

GaryLouisSmith: Why can't a theist see the lack of evidence for a God? Surely, he muses, if the theist truly looked at the lack of evidence, he would, if honest, change his mind?
Science demands empirical evidence, Faith does not. If the theist's belief is founded on direct mystical/intuitive experience, he has evidence of the existence of a higher power or intelligence.

It is the confirmed atheist who is non-intuitive will never be able to understand the theist. As you said, he will just think he is deranged or misguided. But then rational human beings seem deranged to other animals.
"We do not see things as they are; we see things as we are." - Anaïs Nin
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Re: Do you think a theist can understand atheist?

Post by LuckyR »

GaryLouisSmith wrote: September 28th, 2019, 9:56 pm I think many atheists believe that a theist is merely someone who has failed to think through matters of existence. Perhaps a theist is mentally ill or mentally inadequate for thought. Or he is afraid and worried about what his acquaintances will think. Or perhaps he is just mentally lazy. What about evidence? Why can't a theist see the lack of evidence for a God? Surely, he muses, if the theist truly looked at the lack of evidence, he would, if honest, change his mind? He will never understand atheism.
While your comments fit some atheist's thoughts, they are addressing a nonproblem. Theism doesn't need to be "explained". Currently it is the default position. In most of the world those who are religious, that is, most people, are religious because their families are religious and thus they were brought up religious. No deep contemplation required. OTOH, if such people end up atheistic, a certain amount of thought is required to break away from their upbringing.
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Re: Do you think a theist can understand atheist?

Post by GaryLouisSmith »

LuckyR wrote: September 29th, 2019, 4:47 am
GaryLouisSmith wrote: September 28th, 2019, 9:56 pm I think many atheists believe that a theist is merely someone who has failed to think through matters of existence. Perhaps a theist is mentally ill or mentally inadequate for thought. Or he is afraid and worried about what his acquaintances will think. Or perhaps he is just mentally lazy. What about evidence? Why can't a theist see the lack of evidence for a God? Surely, he muses, if the theist truly looked at the lack of evidence, he would, if honest, change his mind? He will never understand atheism.
While your comments fit some atheist's thoughts, they are addressing a nonproblem. Theism doesn't need to be "explained". Currently it is the default position. In most of the world those who are religious, that is, most people, are religious because their families are religious and thus they were brought up religious. No deep contemplation required. OTOH, if such people end up atheistic, a certain amount of thought is required to break away from their upbringing.
So do you think a theist can understand atheism? I mean really understand it.
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Re: Do you think a theist can understand atheist?

Post by Pattern-chaser »

Which way round is this topic? Are you asking if theists can understand atheists, or if atheists can understand theists? Or both? 🤔
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Re: Do you think a theist can understand atheist?

Post by GaryLouisSmith »

Pattern-chaser wrote: September 29th, 2019, 6:36 am Which way round is this topic? Are you asking if theists can understand atheists, or if atheists can understand theists? Or both? 🤔
I'm asking if you think a theist can understand, really understand, atheism.
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Re: Do you think a theist can understand atheist?

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GaryLouisSmith wrote: September 28th, 2019, 9:56 pm I think many atheists believe that a theist is merely someone who has failed to think through matters of existence. Perhaps a theist is mentally ill or mentally inadequate for thought. Or he is afraid and worried about what his acquaintances will think. Or perhaps he is just mentally lazy. What about evidence? Why can't a theist see the lack of evidence for a God? Surely, he muses, if the theist truly looked at the lack of evidence, he would, if honest, change his mind? He will never understand atheism.
You have adequately demonstrated your problem.
About atheism, there is nothing to understand. Like most theists you seem to think that atheism is some sort of belief system, when, of course it is nothing of the kind.
It is simply a negation of a belief system; not one but a series of connected and disconnected belief systems, all of which fail to amount to a serious set of claims.

What we have is a decent respect for reason and evidence, which all theistic systems fail to meet.
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Re: Do you think a theist can understand atheist?

Post by Sculptor1 »

PS.
Although " a decent respect for reason and evidence, which all theistic systems fail to meet." leads to atheism.
Atheism does not exhaust or encapsulate this statement.

This statement is simply the mature position of post enlightenment thinking which has given us the scientific revolution, and modern philosophy, and is the watch word for all types of skepticism.
It is as applicable to fairies and dragon as it is to god.

Can you understand THAT?
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Re: Do you think a theist can understand atheist?

Post by GaryLouisSmith »

I’m the OP, the guy that first asked the question. I would answer it by saying that I think a theist cannot understand, really understand, atheism. Let me give you something analogous. Can a heterosexual, who has never experienced sexual attraction to someone of the same sex, understand homosexuality? And vice versa, can a homosexual, who has never experienced sexual attraction to the opposite sex, understand heterosexuality? In both cases I say No. For me to understand something is to have direct acquaintance with that something. I understand color because I have experienced color. I understand how someone could like disco music because I like it. I do not understand how someone could like harsh metallic music. I also don’t understand how someone could like folk music or spicy hot food or bungee jumping. Most theists have never directly experienced the absence of God. They simply don’t know what it feels like. Therefore I say that they don’t understand it. Likewise, most atheists have never experienced the presence of God. And therefore they don’t understand it.

If you do not share my idea that to understand something is to experience that something directly, then you may disagree with me. I have an extreme empiricism. I also believe that one can directly experience the absence of something.
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Re: Do you think a theist can understand atheist?

Post by Karpel Tunnel »

GaryLouisSmith wrote: September 28th, 2019, 9:56 pm I think many atheists believe that a theist is merely someone who has failed to think through matters of existence. Perhaps a theist is mentally ill or mentally inadequate for thought. Or he is afraid and worried about what his acquaintances will think. Or perhaps he is just mentally lazy. What about evidence? Why can't a theist see the lack of evidence for a God? Surely, he muses, if the theist truly looked at the lack of evidence, he would, if honest, change his mind? He will never understand atheism.
This seems to be about an atheist not understanding a theist, but the title is about the opposite direction.

Can a theist understand an atheist? Sure. Most perhaps do not or do not want to rest in their understanding. But anyone who has doubts every about X, can understand people who do not believe X, if we are willing to spend time relating to those doubting moments and imagining them extended. Would this be perfect understanding? No. The same would go for atheists in the other direction, since they likely believe things they cannot prove to others, even if in more banal categories.
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Re: Do you think a theist can understand atheist?

Post by Thomyum2 »

GaryLouisSmith wrote: September 29th, 2019, 8:11 am I’m the OP, the guy that first asked the question. I would answer it by saying that I think a theist cannot understand, really understand, atheism. Let me give you something analogous. Can a heterosexual, who has never experienced sexual attraction to someone of the same sex, understand homosexuality? And vice versa, can a homosexual, who has never experienced sexual attraction to the opposite sex, understand heterosexuality? In both cases I say No. For me to understand something is to have direct acquaintance with that something. I understand color because I have experienced color. I understand how someone could like disco music because I like it. I do not understand how someone could like harsh metallic music. I also don’t understand how someone could like folk music or spicy hot food or bungee jumping. Most theists have never directly experienced the absence of God. They simply don’t know what it feels like. Therefore I say that they don’t understand it. Likewise, most atheists have never experienced the presence of God. And therefore they don’t understand it.

If you do not share my idea that to understand something is to experience that something directly, then you may disagree with me. I have an extreme empiricism. I also believe that one can directly experience the absence of something.
I've think you've captured the essence of the question here at the end - how one answers this question largely hinge on how one interprets the subtleties in the meaning of 'understand' in this particular context.

Regarding your analogy as to whether or not a heterosexual can understand a homosexual: couldn't we say that since both 'understand' the experience of attraction, that therefore the two can understand each other by the very use that common ground to create the understanding? Perhaps it is an incomplete understanding since it is not direct experience, but I would say it is still a form of understanding. Or would you argue that the fact of the difference in the object of that attraction creates such a gulf that there can be no understanding? But if that's the case, couldn't we then say that even two heterosexuals couldn't understand each other if they themselves might not share the same attractions to different individuals or different types of persons?

So I guess that takes me to a second thought, which is that in reality, since everyone is an individual and we all are different, we both understand each other where we can communicate a common language of expression, but we also misunderstand each other where we differ and fail to find a common ground. And it is here we can see that language itself serves as the very tool we use to try to convey our understandings to one another, thereby allowing persons, through this process of communication, to be able to share (even if in an imperfect or limited manner) in the experiences of others without having had those experiences directly.

So to end, and to return to your original question, I think that maybe 'understanding' itself is not a black or white, perfect or imperfect, human faculty, and that there are gradations and degrees to understanding. Maybe the question, when this word is used, should not be 'can a theist understand an atheist?', but rather 'how well can a theist understand an atheist?' Perhaps the former question does not have an answer, while the latter may be rich for discussion.

Your thoughts?
“We have two ears and one mouth so that we can listen twice as much as we speak.”
— Epictetus
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Re: Do you think a theist can understand atheist?

Post by h_k_s »

GaryLouisSmith wrote: September 28th, 2019, 9:56 pm I think many atheists believe that a theist is merely someone who has failed to think through matters of existence. Perhaps a theist is mentally ill or mentally inadequate for thought. Or he is afraid and worried about what his acquaintances will think. Or perhaps he is just mentally lazy. What about evidence? Why can't a theist see the lack of evidence for a God? Surely, he muses, if the theist truly looked at the lack of evidence, he would, if honest, change his mind? He will never understand atheism.
Theists base their theology on faith, which is belief in the absence of proof.

Atheists base their anti-theology on the fallacy of argument from ignorance, which means having neither proof nor absence of proof you/they ass-u-me one or the other. Either way these assumptions are a fallacy to logic and rationalism.

Don't forget about the other two categories of thinking on this topic of God -- namely (3) deism and (4) agnosticism.

A deist and the theist are not the same thing. You may want to google these and read the wiki's on them to find out.

Just as an agnostic and an atheist are not the same thing either.

So your word for the day is Deist.
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Re: Do you think a theist can understand atheist?

Post by h_k_s »

Felix wrote: September 29th, 2019, 3:26 am
GaryLouisSmith: Why can't a theist see the lack of evidence for a God? Surely, he muses, if the theist truly looked at the lack of evidence, he would, if honest, change his mind?
Science demands empirical evidence, Faith does not. If the theist's belief is founded on direct mystical/intuitive experience, he has evidence of the existence of a higher power or intelligence.

It is the confirmed atheist who is non-intuitive will never be able to understand the theist. As you said, he will just think he is deranged or misguided. But then rational human beings seem deranged to other animals.
I would not call this "evidence." I would call it "hope" as in faith, hope, and charity.
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Re: Do you think a theist can understand atheist?

Post by h_k_s »

LuckyR wrote: September 29th, 2019, 4:47 am
GaryLouisSmith wrote: September 28th, 2019, 9:56 pm I think many atheists believe that a theist is merely someone who has failed to think through matters of existence. Perhaps a theist is mentally ill or mentally inadequate for thought. Or he is afraid and worried about what his acquaintances will think. Or perhaps he is just mentally lazy. What about evidence? Why can't a theist see the lack of evidence for a God? Surely, he muses, if the theist truly looked at the lack of evidence, he would, if honest, change his mind? He will never understand atheism.
While your comments fit some atheist's thoughts, they are addressing a nonproblem. Theism doesn't need to be "explained". Currently it is the default position. In most of the world those who are religious, that is, most people, are religious because their families are religious and thus they were brought up religious. No deep contemplation required. OTOH, if such people end up atheistic, a certain amount of thought is required to break away from their upbringing.
I have found in my experience with atheists both historical and current and both famous and unknown, that atheist have either been brought up without any religion (so they are in the same boat as those who have been brainwashed since childhood) or else atheists were once religious but then had a very disappointing experience in life (death of a loved one, divorce, war, concentration camps, etc.) that they have since become atheist when their faith failed them.

Has nothing to do with thinking or thought.

People who actually think become either agnostic or else deist.

The word for the day is deist.
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