Could Jesus have been merely a good moral philosopher?

Discuss philosophical questions regarding theism (and atheism), and discuss religion as it relates to philosophy. This includes any philosophical discussions that happen to be about god, gods, or a 'higher power' or the belief of them. This also generally includes philosophical topics about organized or ritualistic mysticism or about organized, common or ritualistic beliefs in the existence of supernatural phenomenon.
User avatar
Jack D Ripper
Posts: 610
Joined: September 30th, 2020, 10:30 pm
Location: Burpelson Air Force Base
Contact:

Re: Could Jesus have been merely a good moral philosopher?

Post by Jack D Ripper »

Haicoway wrote: December 25th, 2019, 1:41 pm Does anyone know where, when and how the notion of Hell came up in Christianity? If I could be more convinced there isn't one, I would be less afraid of dying.
The idea of hell is in the Bible. The quotes below are King James Version; it is more poetic than most if not all others, and is in the public domain, so anyone can freely quote it. Here are a few examples (there are more, but this should be more than enough to make the point):


Matthew 13:

49 So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just,
50 And shall cast them into the furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.


Matthew 18:

8 Wherefore if thy hand or thy foot offend thee, cut them off, and cast them from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life halt or maimed, rather than having two hands or two feet to be cast into everlasting fire.
9 And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life with one eye, rather than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire.


Matthew 25:

41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:


Mark 9:

43 And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:
44 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
45 And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:
46 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
47 And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire:
48 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.


Luke 16:

22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;
23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.
25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.


Revelation 14:

10The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
11And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.


Revelation 20:

10And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
11And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
12And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
13And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
14And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.



Notice in that in Revelation 20:10, the torment is explicitly stated to be eternal.

So, the Christian source of belief in hellfire and eternal damnation is the Bible.


But, here is why you should not be afraid. There is absolutely no reason to believe that the Bible is true. It was written by primitive and barbarous people long ago, who were ignorant of how the world works. The book resembles other ancient texts of other primitive people, full of all sorts of things that are now known to be impossible. The people who believe this sort of thing are people who have been indoctrinated into such beliefs as children.

One of the interesting things is how even most people who believe such primitive superstitious twaddle, would reject the exact same stories if they were told in a contemporary setting. For example, if your fiancée told you she was a virgin, but she was pregnant, would you believe her? If not, why would you believe the same story in an ancient book, when you don't know who wrote it, and there is no proof that the story is true, or even any reason to believe the story is true?

With a book, it can claim absolutely anything, and need not have any connection to the truth.
"A wise man ... proportions his belief to the evidence." - David Hume
User avatar
Jack D Ripper
Posts: 610
Joined: September 30th, 2020, 10:30 pm
Location: Burpelson Air Force Base
Contact:

Re: Could Jesus have been merely a good moral philosopher?

Post by Jack D Ripper »

Greta wrote: October 22nd, 2019, 5:59 pm There are two possibilities:

1) Either Jesus repeatedly broke the laws of physics at will with his miracles, or

2) Ancient people who believed that you could cure viral illness with exorcism were unreliable witnesses.

Consider how Jesus multiplied five loaves and two fish to feed a multitude. I wonder about the fish. Were they dead or still wriggling?

Had they been happily swimming in the ocean when they were suddenly (and invisibly) transported to the hungry people? Or were they conjured up from thin air? But if they were to be materialised, why produce the whole fish, with bones, skull and other inedibles? Why not simply provide the fillets or, better still, ready cooked fillets?

If one can materialise thousands of creatures out of thin air, it should not be too hard to add a little processing and cooking, especially since bread had been provided, rather than unprocessed wheat or dough.

Aside from the fact that Jesus may not have ever existed (as you point out in a later post), many people seem to forget the fact that people do magic acts all of the time, that appear to defy the laws of physics. I have seen a magician "saw a lady in half" and "put her back together again." If I were an idiot, I might believe that that is a literal description of what happened, instead of believing it to be a good trick. And good tricks go back a long, long time. A good sleight of hand magician could easily pull off a stunt like the multiplying of the fishes and loaves.

I also saw a magic trick of someone turning water into wine. They did it in the same way as in the Bible, pouring from one container to another, etc. (They did it like that on purpose, reading the Bible verses as they performed the trick.)

People are quite gullible, which is why they believe in miracles instead of believing in con artists, which are known to exist.
"A wise man ... proportions his belief to the evidence." - David Hume
User avatar
Arjen
Posts: 467
Joined: January 16th, 2019, 4:53 am
Favorite Philosopher: Immanuel Kant

Re: Could Jesus have been merely a good moral philosopher?

Post by Arjen »

Well, according to the CCP this is certainly not true. They are currently rewriting the bible:
CCP Bible wrote: https://bitterwinter.org/ccp-rewriting- ... -adultery/

“The crowd wanted to stone the woman to death as per their law. But Jesus said, ‘Let the one who has never sinned throw the first stone.’ Hearing this, they slipped away one by one. When the crowd disappeared, Jesus stoned the sinner to death saying, ‘I too am a sinner. But if the law could only be executed by men without blemish, the law would be dead.’”
Shockingly, the CCP is effectively claiming that Jezus is a murderer!
The saying that what is true in theory is not always true in practice, means that the theory is wrong!
~Immanuel Kant
User avatar
Jack D Ripper
Posts: 610
Joined: September 30th, 2020, 10:30 pm
Location: Burpelson Air Force Base
Contact:

Re: Could Jesus have been merely a good moral philosopher?

Post by Jack D Ripper »

Arjen wrote: October 20th, 2020, 1:52 am Well, according to the CCP this is certainly not true. They are currently rewriting the bible:
CCP Bible wrote: https://bitterwinter.org/ccp-rewriting- ... -adultery/

“The crowd wanted to stone the woman to death as per their law. But Jesus said, ‘Let the one who has never sinned throw the first stone.’ Hearing this, they slipped away one by one. When the crowd disappeared, Jesus stoned the sinner to death saying, ‘I too am a sinner. But if the law could only be executed by men without blemish, the law would be dead.’”
Shockingly, the CCP is effectively claiming that Jezus is a murderer!

That has the sound of something made up rather than real. Regardless, the funny thing is, that change makes the character of Jesus more consistent. Here are the supposed words of Jesus (feel free to use whatever translation you like; you can know what verses to look at from the quote below):

Matthew 5 (KJV):

17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
20 For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.

So, we have Jesus telling us that the law is not to be changed, even in the slightest way, until "heaven and earth pass" and until "all be fulfilled." So if the law says that the person should be stoned, then, according to the supposed quote from Jesus there, then the person should be stoned. Letting the person go without being stoned contradicts what Jesus is quoted as saying in Matthew 5.
"A wise man ... proportions his belief to the evidence." - David Hume
User avatar
Arjen
Posts: 467
Joined: January 16th, 2019, 4:53 am
Favorite Philosopher: Immanuel Kant

Re: Could Jesus have been merely a good moral philosopher?

Post by Arjen »

Perhaps he was pointing out the difference between the leeter and the spirit of the law? Plus, really, how can we judge? Those are valueble insights and ways to show comlassion or remorse.

Rewriting this story just looks like a way to validate the criminal CCP. Or is that just me?
The saying that what is true in theory is not always true in practice, means that the theory is wrong!
~Immanuel Kant
User avatar
Jack D Ripper
Posts: 610
Joined: September 30th, 2020, 10:30 pm
Location: Burpelson Air Force Base
Contact:

Re: Could Jesus have been merely a good moral philosopher?

Post by Jack D Ripper »

The quote from Matthew 5 is telling people that they should follow the letter of the law. Look it up in a translation of the Bible in your native language. One is not to teach people to break any law (verse 19); one is supposed to follow the law completely (verse 19). So, by not stoning the person, Jesus, in the original story, is being a total hypocrite.
"A wise man ... proportions his belief to the evidence." - David Hume
User avatar
Jack D Ripper
Posts: 610
Joined: September 30th, 2020, 10:30 pm
Location: Burpelson Air Force Base
Contact:

Re: Could Jesus have been merely a good moral philosopher?

Post by Jack D Ripper »

Also, not punishing wrongdoers isn't following the spirit of the law either. One would be following the spirit of the law by hanging the person instead of stoning them. That would be following the spirit of the law without following the letter of the law, since the letter of the law specifies the method of execution.
"A wise man ... proportions his belief to the evidence." - David Hume
Belindi
Moderator
Posts: 6105
Joined: September 11th, 2016, 2:11 pm

Re: Could Jesus have been merely a good moral philosopher?

Post by Belindi »

Jesus was son of God like Mary Queen of Scots was daughter of France. Or like the Royal Navy recruitment advertisements where the slogan goes " I was born in--------- but I was made in the Royal Navy".
I does not mean literal offspring it means spiritual offspring.
User avatar
Sculptor1
Posts: 7066
Joined: May 16th, 2019, 5:35 am

Re: Could Jesus have been merely a good moral philosopher?

Post by Sculptor1 »

Clay_10 wrote: October 9th, 2019, 12:28 pm Many people hold the position that Jesus was not divine, but also assert that he was a good man and good moral philosopher. I believe that to be contradictory in nature because of the simple fact that he claimed divinity.
Apparently, according to every Jew I have asked, the term JC used of himself was one common amongst all Rabbis; Son of God, Son of Man.
Could the Jesus story be a badly cobbled together set of whispers about one or more rabbis at the time of Pilates governorship of Palestine, none of whom ever claimed anymore divinity than any other rabbi?
Of could the idea of a son of a god be so common in ancient times (as in fact it was) that to achieve any sort of notoriety it was as necessary as calling someone a "star" in modern times?
The bible was written in Greek by Greek in whose culture, the idea of godlets running about the place was quite common.
User avatar
Sculptor1
Posts: 7066
Joined: May 16th, 2019, 5:35 am

Re: Could Jesus have been merely a good moral philosopher?

Post by Sculptor1 »

Jack D Ripper wrote: October 21st, 2020, 5:23 pm Also, not punishing wrongdoers isn't following the spirit of the law either. One would be following the spirit of the law by hanging the person instead of stoning them. That would be following the spirit of the law without following the letter of the law, since the letter of the law specifies the method of execution.
Did you know that stoning was intended to be fatal? So a sentence of stoning was not only a death sentence but an excuse for a bit of public ultra-violence.
User avatar
Sculptor1
Posts: 7066
Joined: May 16th, 2019, 5:35 am

Re: Could Jesus have been merely a good moral philosopher?

Post by Sculptor1 »

Arjen wrote: October 21st, 2020, 4:57 pm Perhaps he was pointing out the difference between the leeter and the spirit of the law? Plus, really, how can we judge? Those are valueble insights and ways to show comlassion or remorse.

Rewriting this story just looks like a way to validate the criminal CCP. Or is that just me?
It's just you!

ROTFLMFHO!!!

Yeah, Jesus was right down on the nasty CCP!!
User avatar
Arjen
Posts: 467
Joined: January 16th, 2019, 4:53 am
Favorite Philosopher: Immanuel Kant

Re: Could Jesus have been merely a good moral philosopher?

Post by Arjen »

Sculptor1
I'm starting to think those qanon are right now!

Jack D Ripper
I know that it is a death sentence, but Jesus made people reconsider and then nobody threw a rock. It is a huge liberal moment: What should be punished by law and what should not. Or: Is as harsh a punishment as that needed?
The saying that what is true in theory is not always true in practice, means that the theory is wrong!
~Immanuel Kant
User avatar
Sculptor1
Posts: 7066
Joined: May 16th, 2019, 5:35 am

Re: Could Jesus have been merely a good moral philosopher?

Post by Sculptor1 »

Arjen wrote: October 22nd, 2020, 7:13 am Sculptor1
I'm starting to think those qanon are right now!

@Jack D Ripper
I know that it is a death sentence, but Jesus made people reconsider and then nobody threw a rock. It is a huge liberal moment: What should be punished by law and what should not. Or: Is as harsh a punishment as that needed?
I've no idea what you are in about now.
User avatar
Arjen
Posts: 467
Joined: January 16th, 2019, 4:53 am
Favorite Philosopher: Immanuel Kant

Re: Could Jesus have been merely a good moral philosopher?

Post by Arjen »

Sculptor1 wrote: October 22nd, 2020, 8:23 am
Arjen wrote: October 22nd, 2020, 7:13 am Sculptor1
I'm starting to think those qanon are right now!

@Jack D Ripper
I know that it is a death sentence, but Jesus made people reconsider and then nobody threw a rock. It is a huge liberal moment: What should be punished by law and what should not. Or: Is as harsh a punishment as that needed?
I've no idea what you are in about now.
Satanist world leaders! :P
The saying that what is true in theory is not always true in practice, means that the theory is wrong!
~Immanuel Kant
User avatar
Jack D Ripper
Posts: 610
Joined: September 30th, 2020, 10:30 pm
Location: Burpelson Air Force Base
Contact:

Re: Could Jesus have been merely a good moral philosopher?

Post by Jack D Ripper »

Sculptor1 wrote: October 22nd, 2020, 6:43 am
Jack D Ripper wrote: October 21st, 2020, 5:23 pm Also, not punishing wrongdoers isn't following the spirit of the law either. One would be following the spirit of the law by hanging the person instead of stoning them. That would be following the spirit of the law without following the letter of the law, since the letter of the law specifies the method of execution.
Did you know that stoning was intended to be fatal? So a sentence of stoning was not only a death sentence but an excuse for a bit of public ultra-violence.
Yes. What did you think I meant when I used the phrase "method of execution"?
"A wise man ... proportions his belief to the evidence." - David Hume
Post Reply

Return to “Philosophy of Religion, Theism and Mythology”

2023/2024 Philosophy Books of the Month

Entanglement - Quantum and Otherwise

Entanglement - Quantum and Otherwise
by John K Danenbarger
January 2023

Mark Victor Hansen, Relentless: Wisdom Behind the Incomparable Chicken Soup for the Soul

Mark Victor Hansen, Relentless: Wisdom Behind the Incomparable Chicken Soup for the Soul
by Mitzi Perdue
February 2023

Rediscovering the Wisdom of Human Nature: How Civilization Destroys Happiness

Rediscovering the Wisdom of Human Nature: How Civilization Destroys Happiness
by Chet Shupe
March 2023

The Unfakeable Code®

The Unfakeable Code®
by Tony Jeton Selimi
April 2023

The Book: On the Taboo Against Knowing Who You Are

The Book: On the Taboo Against Knowing Who You Are
by Alan Watts
May 2023

Killing Abel

Killing Abel
by Michael Tieman
June 2023

Reconfigurement: Reconfiguring Your Life at Any Stage and Planning Ahead

Reconfigurement: Reconfiguring Your Life at Any Stage and Planning Ahead
by E. Alan Fleischauer
July 2023

First Survivor: The Impossible Childhood Cancer Breakthrough

First Survivor: The Impossible Childhood Cancer Breakthrough
by Mark Unger
August 2023

Predictably Irrational

Predictably Irrational
by Dan Ariely
September 2023

Artwords

Artwords
by Beatriz M. Robles
November 2023

Fireproof Happiness: Extinguishing Anxiety & Igniting Hope

Fireproof Happiness: Extinguishing Anxiety & Igniting Hope
by Dr. Randy Ross
December 2023

Beyond the Golden Door: Seeing the American Dream Through an Immigrant's Eyes

Beyond the Golden Door: Seeing the American Dream Through an Immigrant's Eyes
by Ali Master
February 2024

2022 Philosophy Books of the Month

Emotional Intelligence At Work

Emotional Intelligence At Work
by Richard M Contino & Penelope J Holt
January 2022

Free Will, Do You Have It?

Free Will, Do You Have It?
by Albertus Kral
February 2022

My Enemy in Vietnam

My Enemy in Vietnam
by Billy Springer
March 2022

2X2 on the Ark

2X2 on the Ark
by Mary J Giuffra, PhD
April 2022

The Maestro Monologue

The Maestro Monologue
by Rob White
May 2022

What Makes America Great

What Makes America Great
by Bob Dowell
June 2022

The Truth Is Beyond Belief!

The Truth Is Beyond Belief!
by Jerry Durr
July 2022

Living in Color

Living in Color
by Mike Murphy
August 2022 (tentative)

The Not So Great American Novel

The Not So Great American Novel
by James E Doucette
September 2022

Mary Jane Whiteley Coggeshall, Hicksite Quaker, Iowa/National Suffragette And Her Speeches

Mary Jane Whiteley Coggeshall, Hicksite Quaker, Iowa/National Suffragette And Her Speeches
by John N. (Jake) Ferris
October 2022

In It Together: The Beautiful Struggle Uniting Us All

In It Together: The Beautiful Struggle Uniting Us All
by Eckhart Aurelius Hughes
November 2022

The Smartest Person in the Room: The Root Cause and New Solution for Cybersecurity

The Smartest Person in the Room
by Christian Espinosa
December 2022

2021 Philosophy Books of the Month

The Biblical Clock: The Untold Secrets Linking the Universe and Humanity with God's Plan

The Biblical Clock
by Daniel Friedmann
March 2021

Wilderness Cry: A Scientific and Philosophical Approach to Understanding God and the Universe

Wilderness Cry
by Dr. Hilary L Hunt M.D.
April 2021

Fear Not, Dream Big, & Execute: Tools To Spark Your Dream And Ignite Your Follow-Through

Fear Not, Dream Big, & Execute
by Jeff Meyer
May 2021

Surviving the Business of Healthcare: Knowledge is Power

Surviving the Business of Healthcare
by Barbara Galutia Regis M.S. PA-C
June 2021

Winning the War on Cancer: The Epic Journey Towards a Natural Cure

Winning the War on Cancer
by Sylvie Beljanski
July 2021

Defining Moments of a Free Man from a Black Stream

Defining Moments of a Free Man from a Black Stream
by Dr Frank L Douglas
August 2021

If Life Stinks, Get Your Head Outta Your Buts

If Life Stinks, Get Your Head Outta Your Buts
by Mark L. Wdowiak
September 2021

The Preppers Medical Handbook

The Preppers Medical Handbook
by Dr. William W Forgey M.D.
October 2021

Natural Relief for Anxiety and Stress: A Practical Guide

Natural Relief for Anxiety and Stress
by Dr. Gustavo Kinrys, MD
November 2021

Dream For Peace: An Ambassador Memoir

Dream For Peace
by Dr. Ghoulem Berrah
December 2021