God is dying. Will he be dead?

Discuss philosophical questions regarding theism (and atheism), and discuss religion as it relates to philosophy. This includes any philosophical discussions that happen to be about god, gods, or a 'higher power' or the belief of them. This also generally includes philosophical topics about organized or ritualistic mysticism or about organized, common or ritualistic beliefs in the existence of supernatural phenomenon.
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LuckyR
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Re: God is dying. Will he be dead?

Post by LuckyR »

Newme wrote: September 23rd, 2020, 7:14 pm
gad-fly wrote: June 26th, 2020, 5:48 pm

God is a theological term. I would not mention 'God' unless in connection with religious existence. Who is Paul Tillech? He is probably speaking metaphorically or proverbially when he said we worship the ultimate concern. Most of us don't. We aspire to our ultimate concern, and that is it. More likely, we worship idols, and superstar.
Most Theists don’t even bow down and worship. Who formally worships? Tillech, I believe, referred to one’s “ultimate concern” not as something they formally or ritualistically worship, but rather whatever is most important to them - how they spend most of their time, energy & resources.

Some ways God is defined or imagined, inspire dysfunction. I see Tillech’s approach as more healthy & realistic - at least for those who seek to live well - in practice, not just word. He keeps us honest. But I wouldn’t limit God to just that. That is more our own issues. IMO, God involves intelligent design, one’s own experiences with God (psych-ology/spirituality) & how well we care for one another.
"Most Theists"? Most churchgoers go to church out of habit or a sense of obligation ("that's just what folks do around here" or "everyone in my family just goes to church") or use it as a social network. Of course a large percentage of churchgoers truly belief in a god and the trappings of the church etc, but it is a huge error to assume it is anywhere near 90% of churchgoers.
"As usual... it depends."
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Re: God is dying. Will he be dead?

Post by gad-fly »

Newme wrote: September 23rd, 2020, 7:14 pm
Who formally worships? Tillech, I believe, referred to one’s “ultimate concern” not as something they formally or ritualistically worship, but rather whatever is most important to them - how they spend most of their time, energy & resources.

I see Tillech’s approach as more healthy & realistic - at least for those who seek to live well - in practice, not just word. He keeps us honest. But I wouldn’t limit God to just that. That is more our own issues. IMO, God involves intelligent design, one’s own experiences with God (psych-ology/spirituality) & how well we care for one another.
It seems Tillech is causing confusion.

It is common sense that one does not worship concern, or even ultimate concern. I cannot see how he is keeping us honest or dishonest.

God involves intelligent design? I suggest better to say God involves design or conception by intelligence. Who knows whether Animals believe in God?
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Newme
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Re: God is dying. Will he be dead?

Post by Newme »

LuckyR wrote: September 24th, 2020, 11:20 am"Most Theists"? Most churchgoers go to church out of habit or a sense of obligation ("that's just what folks do around here" or "everyone in my family just goes to church") or use it as a social network. Of course a large percentage of churchgoers truly belief in a god and the trappings of the church etc, but it is a huge error to assume it is anywhere near 90% of churchgoers.
Technically “most” would only have to be 51%, & I think I’ve read polls suggesting a high percent of Christians don’t regularly attend church. And even those that do, very few bow down when they pray etc. Muslims do quite regularly, but not Christians... and Christians make up the largest percent of theists worldwide. I’d guess that most theists know that God is not in the Sky nor in the ground but is unseen Spirit (or energy). So, In a sense, they worship an idea more than an idol. So... maybe the thread question should be “which ideas of God persist and which have died out?”

My point was that whether one prays to God or not, is less relevant than what they worship most in practice. What they spend their energy, focus, & resources most, is indicative of what they actually hold as their highest concern.
“Empty is the argument of the philosopher which does not relieve any human suffering.” - Epicurus
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Re: God is dying. Will he be dead?

Post by Newme »

gad-fly wrote: September 26th, 2020, 11:43 am
Newme wrote: September 23rd, 2020, 7:14 pm
Who formally worships? Tillech, I believe, referred to one’s “ultimate concern” not as something they formally or ritualistically worship, but rather whatever is most important to them - how they spend most of their time, energy & resources.

I see Tillech’s approach as more healthy & realistic - at least for those who seek to live well - in practice, not just word. He keeps us honest. But I wouldn’t limit God to just that. That is more our own issues. IMO, God involves intelligent design, one’s own experiences with God (psych-ology/spirituality) & how well we care for one another.
It seems Tillech is causing confusion.

It is common sense that one does not worship concern, or even ultimate concern. I cannot see how he is keeping us honest or dishonest.

God involves intelligent design? I suggest better to say God involves design or conception by intelligence. Who knows whether Animals believe in God?
No, let me clarify.
Let’s say there’s a guy who spends most of his free time, money and energy on his Rolls Royce. It’s what he thinks about most, & he just loves it! Now say he says he worships God. Tillich is suggesting that his god in practice is his Rolls Royce. He doesn’t consciously bow down & worship it, but he does spend most of his life on it - it proves to be his “ultimate concern,” even if he says otherwise. Basically Tillech is saying “actions speak louder than words” in what you really care most about (aka what you worship/ have as your ultimate concern).
“Empty is the argument of the philosopher which does not relieve any human suffering.” - Epicurus
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Re: God is dying. Will he be dead?

Post by Fanman »

Hi Newme,
My point was that whether one prays to God or not, is less relevant than what they worship most in practice. What they spend their energy, focus, & resources most, is indicative of what they actually hold as their highest concern.
That's correct. People can profess to have and prioritise any number of allegiances, but our greatest concern will always be known by that to which we dedicate the most of ourselves to. So as you say, it doesn’t matter if a Christian goes to church weekly and on the surface of things appears to be a believer. What most preoccupies their thoughts and what they dedicate the most time, effort and energy to, denotes what is their highest concern.
Theists believe, agnostics ponder and atheists analyse. A little bit of each should get us the right answer.
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Re: God is dying. Will he be dead?

Post by gad-fly »

Newme wrote: October 1st, 2020, 3:33 pm
gad-fly wrote: September 26th, 2020, 11:43 am

It seems Tillech is causing confusion.

It is common sense that one does not worship concern, or even ultimate concern. I cannot see how he is keeping us honest or dishonest.

God involves intelligent design? I suggest better to say God involves design or conception by intelligence. Who knows whether Animals believe in God?
No, let me clarify.
Let’s say there’s a guy who spends most of his free time, money and energy on his Rolls Royce. It’s what he thinks about most, & he just loves it! Now say he says he worships God. Tillich is suggesting that his god in practice is his Rolls Royce. He doesn’t consciously bow down & worship it, but he does spend most of his life on it - it proves to be his “ultimate concern,” even if he says otherwise. Basically Tillech is saying “actions speak louder than words” in what you really care most about (aka what you worship/ have as your ultimate concern).
I can see your equation: ultimate concern = dedicated most = worshipped God. Conclusion: God will never die, or be dead.

The only question: Is God taken in the religious or materialist context? If the latter, fine.
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Re: God is dying. Will he be dead?

Post by gad-fly »

Fanman wrote: October 1st, 2020, 5:55 pm Hi Newme,
My point was that whether one prays to God or not, is less relevant than what they worship most in practice. What they spend their energy, focus, & resources most, is indicative of what they actually hold as their highest concern.
That's correct. People can profess to have and prioritise any number of allegiances, but our greatest concern will always be known by that to which we dedicate the most of ourselves to. So as you say, it doesn’t matter if a Christian goes to church weekly and on the surface of things appears to be a believer. What most preoccupies their thoughts and what they dedicate the most time, effort and energy to, denotes what is their highest concern.
To equate the highest concern with worshipping God is seditious. It is no less disrespectful than equating your mother as a woman, or even the woman.

Say you worship Elvis. You take him as God. Since he is dead, you can claim God is dead? You are crazy about rock and roll. You claim God will never die? Nobody can dispute your claims, but you are only fooling yourself with metaphor, unless you want to play the smart ass.
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Re: God is dying. Will he be dead?

Post by Fanman »

gad-fly,
To equate the highest concern with worshipping God is seditious. It is no less disrespectful than equating your mother as a woman, or even the woman.

Say you worship Elvis. You take him as God. Since he is dead, you can claim God is dead? You are crazy about rock and roll. You claim God will never die? Nobody can dispute your claims, but you are only fooling yourself with metaphor, unless you want to play the smart ass.
I agree.
Theists believe, agnostics ponder and atheists analyse. A little bit of each should get us the right answer.
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Re: God is dying. Will he be dead?

Post by Belindi »

What "God is dying" means to me is the established meaning of 'God'. 'God' has become synonymous with what priests and politicians tell us is God.
At this present time 'God' means what anyone wants it to mean so it is meaningless.

This situation is temporary and uncomfortable. There will be a new version of God that a society agrees with and aims for.
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Re: God is dying. Will he be dead?

Post by gad-fly »

Belindi wrote: October 11th, 2020, 6:45 am What "God is dying" means to me is the established meaning of 'God'. 'God' has become synonymous with what priests and politicians tell us is God.
At this present time 'God' means what anyone wants it to mean so it is meaningless.

This situation is temporary and uncomfortable. There will be a new version of God that a society agrees with and aims for.
"God is what everyone wants it to mean. So it is meaningless." You can apply that to democracy, freedom, and so on, followed by the conclusion that they are also meaningless. Such smartass approach is tyranny to the pursuit and advancement of knowledge. To expect some new society to impose a new version is like expecting a dictator as the next savior.

God may be dying, but the concept of God is what we cannot do without.
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Re: God is dying. Will he be dead?

Post by Belindi »

gad-fly wrote: November 6th, 2020, 12:05 am
Belindi wrote: October 11th, 2020, 6:45 am What "God is dying" means to me is the established meaning of 'God'. 'God' has become synonymous with what priests and politicians tell us is God.
At this present time 'God' means what anyone wants it to mean so it is meaningless.

This situation is temporary and uncomfortable. There will be a new version of God that a society agrees with and aims for.
"God is what everyone wants it to mean. So it is meaningless." You can apply that to democracy, freedom, and so on, followed by the conclusion that they are also meaningless. Such smartass approach is tyranny to the pursuit and advancement of knowledge. To expect some new society to impose a new version is like expecting a dictator as the next savior.

God may be dying, but the concept of God is what we cannot do without.
If you mean universal God then I agree with you. If you mean sectarian God then I disagree.
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Re: God is dying. Will he be dead?

Post by gad-fly »

Belindi wrote: November 6th, 2020, 5:35 am
gad-fly wrote: November 6th, 2020, 12:05 am

"God is what everyone wants it to mean. So it is meaningless." You can apply that to democracy, freedom, and so on, followed by the conclusion that they are also meaningless. Such smartass approach is tyranny to the pursuit and advancement of knowledge. To expect some new society to impose a new version is like expecting a dictator as the next savior.

God may be dying, but the concept of God is what we cannot do without.
If you mean universal God then I agree with you. If you mean sectarian God then I disagree.
Most people, including me, do not bother about the difference between universal and sectarian. Religious or not, we take God as the Creator and the Almighty. It is as simple as that.

When we say God is dying, we are referring to God as a concept, not as physical entity. I know that is clear to you.
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Re: God is dying. Will he be dead?

Post by Newme »

gad-fly wrote: October 5th, 2020, 3:46 pm
Newme wrote: October 1st, 2020, 3:33 pm
No, let me clarify.
Let’s say there’s a guy who spends most of his free time, money and energy on his Rolls Royce. It’s what he thinks about most, & he just loves it! Now say he says he worships God. Tillich is suggesting that his god in practice is his Rolls Royce. He doesn’t consciously bow down & worship it, but he does spend most of his life on it - it proves to be his “ultimate concern,” even if he says otherwise. Basically Tillech is saying “actions speak louder than words” in what you really care most about (aka what you worship/ have as your ultimate concern).
I can see your equation: ultimate concern = dedicated most = worshipped God. Conclusion: God will never die, or be dead.

The only question: Is God taken in the religious or materialist context? If the latter, fine.
Well, it’s suggested (not sure about the studies etc) that up to 80% of mental illness is rooted in dysfunctional interpretation of religious dogma. So ironically, religion tends to move people away (rather than toward) God/Highest GOoD. So, I wouldn’t jump right to suggest a religious God - but I wouldn’t conclude a materialist stand either.

How we see the world (inherently subjective) affects all we deem as true, good, bad etc. Materialism supports this but I disagree that it’s all in the brain or matter. I believe that consciousness is energy and energy - even after the brain dies - isn’t destroyed, but changes form. And as Jung said a belief in an afterlife is psychologically hygienic.
“Empty is the argument of the philosopher which does not relieve any human suffering.” - Epicurus
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Re: God is dying. Will he be dead?

Post by Belindi »

gad-fly wrote: November 6th, 2020, 11:40 am
Belindi wrote: November 6th, 2020, 5:35 am
If you mean universal God then I agree with you. If you mean sectarian God then I disagree.
Most people, including me, do not bother about the difference between universal and sectarian. Religious or not, we take God as the Creator and the Almighty. It is as simple as that.

When we say God is dying, we are referring to God as a concept, not as physical entity. I know that is clear to you.
It is unfortunate, but sectarianism is flourishing, and religious tolerance is engaged in the fight against sectarian intolerance.

There are plenty people who bother to a dangerous degree about attributes of God apart from " God as the Creator and the Almighty" .
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Re: God is dying. Will he be dead?

Post by gad-fly »

Newme wrote: November 8th, 2020, 3:18 pm
gad-fly wrote: October 5th, 2020, 3:46 pm

I can see your equation: ultimate concern = dedicated most = worshipped God. Conclusion: God will never die, or be dead.

The only question: Is God taken in the religious or materialist context? If the latter, fine.
Well, it’s suggested (not sure about the studies etc) that up to 80% of mental illness is rooted in dysfunctional interpretation of religious dogma. So ironically, religion tends to move people away (rather than toward) God/Highest GOoD. So, I wouldn’t jump right to suggest a religious God - but I wouldn’t conclude a materialist stand either.

How we see the world (inherently subjective) affects all we deem as true, good, bad etc. Materialism supports this but I disagree that it’s all in the brain or matter. I believe that consciousness is energy and energy - even after the brain dies - isn’t destroyed, but changes form. And as Jung said a belief in an afterlife is psychologically hygienic.
Correction in what I have said previously. God must be taken in the religious context. The religious aspect is inherent in God. "Your God is Rolls Royce since you cannot focus on anything else." That statement is no more than a metaphor. You can also say "my hero is . . .", "my idol is . . .","my baby is . . .", "my wife is . . ." In this respect, the term "God" is borrowed to emphasize the desired effect. You should know better than to fool yourself, or be fooled by whoever.
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