God is dying. Will he be dead?

Discuss philosophical questions regarding theism (and atheism), and discuss religion as it relates to philosophy. This includes any philosophical discussions that happen to be about god, gods, or a 'higher power' or the belief of them. This also generally includes philosophical topics about organized or ritualistic mysticism or about organized, common or ritualistic beliefs in the existence of supernatural phenomenon.
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gad-fly
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Re: God is dying. Will he be dead?

Post by gad-fly »

Belindi wrote: November 8th, 2020, 4:04 pm
gad-fly wrote: November 6th, 2020, 11:40 am

Most people, including me, do not bother about the difference between universal and sectarian. Religious or not, we take God as the Creator and the Almighty. It is as simple as that.

When we say God is dying, we are referring to God as a concept, not as physical entity. I know that is clear to you.
It is unfortunate, but sectarianism is flourishing, and religious tolerance is engaged in the fight against sectarian intolerance.

There are plenty people who bother to a dangerous degree about attributes of God apart from " God as the Creator and the Almighty" .
I do not see that unfortunate. The ebb and flow of religious belief is normal. religious tolerance and sectarian intolerance? Why take sides? How about religious intolerance and sectarian tolerance, or are you against the tide?

Bother about the attributes of God? Of course. 'God as Creator and Almighty", though essential, is no more than where the race starts.
Belindi
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Re: God is dying. Will he be dead?

Post by Belindi »

gad-fly wrote: November 8th, 2020, 11:14 pm
Belindi wrote: November 8th, 2020, 4:04 pm

It is unfortunate, but sectarianism is flourishing, and religious tolerance is engaged in the fight against sectarian intolerance.

There are plenty people who bother to a dangerous degree about attributes of God apart from " God as the Creator and the Almighty" .
I do not see that unfortunate. The ebb and flow of religious belief is normal. religious tolerance and sectarian intolerance? Why take sides? How about religious intolerance and sectarian tolerance, or are you against the tide?

Bother about the attributes of God? Of course. 'God as Creator and Almighty", though essential, is no more than where the race starts.
Every conscientious person is against the tide of sectarian intolerance. Sectarian and religious intolerance causes estrangement and violence.
gad-fly
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Re: God is dying. Will he be dead?

Post by gad-fly »

Belindi wrote: November 9th, 2020, 5:23 am
gad-fly wrote: November 8th, 2020, 11:14 pm

I do not see that unfortunate. The ebb and flow of religious belief is normal. religious tolerance and sectarian intolerance? Why take sides? How about religious intolerance and sectarian tolerance, or are you against the tide?

Bother about the attributes of God? Of course. 'God as Creator and Almighty", though essential, is no more than where the race starts.
Every conscientious person is against the tide of sectarian intolerance. Sectarian and religious intolerance causes estrangement and violence.
Intolerance is ever present in the real imperfect world. The ebb and flow, or rise and fall, of religiosity is a natural phenomenon. Suffice to say: God is dying, but he will never be dead.
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Newme
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Re: God is dying. Will he be dead?

Post by Newme »

gad-fly wrote: November 8th, 2020, 10:58 pm
Newme wrote: November 8th, 2020, 3:18 pm
Well, it’s suggested (not sure about the studies etc) that up to 80% of mental illness is rooted in dysfunctional interpretation of religious dogma. So ironically, religion tends to move people away (rather than toward) God/Highest GOoD. So, I wouldn’t jump right to suggest a religious God - but I wouldn’t conclude a materialist stand either.

How we see the world (inherently subjective) affects all we deem as true, good, bad etc. Materialism supports this but I disagree that it’s all in the brain or matter. I believe that consciousness is energy and energy - even after the brain dies - isn’t destroyed, but changes form. And as Jung said a belief in an afterlife is psychologically hygienic.
Correction in what I have said previously. God must be taken in the religious context. The religious aspect is inherent in God. "Your God is Rolls Royce since you cannot focus on anything else." That statement is no more than a metaphor. You can also say "my hero is . . .", "my idol is . . .","my baby is . . .", "my wife is . . ." In this respect, the term "God" is borrowed to emphasize the desired effect. You should know better than to fool yourself, or be fooled by whoever.
I imagine only one who thinks in terms of literal superficiality would consider the possibility of a car, relationship etc., to be an objective deity. Of course not! To suggest one’s car is one’s ultimate concern is not objective. It’s a subjective claim that whatever you prioritize above all (is worship AS IF it were God), is in fact, your highest priority no matter if you claim it’s some dogmatic idea of Jesus, Allah, Buddha or Darwin ;) etc.

If you take the idea of God (or Force or whatever highest GOoD) seriously, and not just whatever is regurgitated religiously, then you’d reject superficial dogmatic explanations of God. Religion, in my experience is in many ways anti-God because it tends to demand people look to the religion over truth & the higher GOoD. And they tend to deceive & distract people away from God - pretending if you pay them tithes, & jump through other of their hoops, you can be ok with God. When really, “the kingdom (realm/experience) of God is within you.”

I coulda sworn I explained this before - maybe to someone else.
“Empty is the argument of the philosopher which does not relieve any human suffering.” - Epicurus
gad-fly
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Re: God is dying. Will he be dead?

Post by gad-fly »

Newme wrote: November 23rd, 2020, 7:52 pm
gad-fly wrote: November 8th, 2020, 10:58 pm

Correction in what I have said previously. God must be taken in the religious context. The religious aspect is inherent in God. "Your God is Rolls Royce since you cannot focus on anything else." That statement is no more than a metaphor. You can also say "my hero is . . .", "my idol is . . .","my baby is . . .", "my wife is . . ." In this respect, the term "God" is borrowed to emphasize the desired effect. You should know better than to fool yourself, or be fooled by whoever.
I imagine only one who thinks in terms of literal superficiality would consider the possibility of a car, relationship etc., to be an objective deity. Of course not! To suggest one’s car is one’s ultimate concern is not objective. It’s a subjective claim that whatever you prioritize above all (is worship AS IF it were God), is in fact, your highest priority no matter if you claim it’s some dogmatic idea of Jesus, Allah, Buddha or Darwin ;) etc.

If you take the idea of God (or Force or whatever highest GOoD) seriously, and not just whatever is regurgitated religiously, then you’d reject superficial dogmatic explanations of God. Religion, in my experience is in many ways anti-God because it tends to demand people look to the religion over truth & the higher GOoD. And they tend to deceive & distract people away from God - pretending if you pay them tithes, & jump through other of their hoops, you can be ok with God. When really, “the kingdom (realm/experience) of God is within you.”

I coulda sworn I explained this before - maybe to someone else.
Religion is anti-God? This is argument for argument's sake. Religion is essential to bring in the realization of God, as what you can communicate with. Without religion, God is just idea of perfection, ultimate, and infinite, something more distant than nature which at least you can forecast and wager. You can worship nature, but you cannot worship God alone because it is not manifest without religion.
Belindi
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Re: God is dying. Will he be dead?

Post by Belindi »

gad-fly wrote: November 29th, 2020, 11:39 am
Newme wrote: November 23rd, 2020, 7:52 pm
I imagine only one who thinks in terms of literal superficiality would consider the possibility of a car, relationship etc., to be an objective deity. Of course not! To suggest one’s car is one’s ultimate concern is not objective. It’s a subjective claim that whatever you prioritize above all (is worship AS IF it were God), is in fact, your highest priority no matter if you claim it’s some dogmatic idea of Jesus, Allah, Buddha or Darwin ;) etc.

If you take the idea of God (or Force or whatever highest GOoD) seriously, and not just whatever is regurgitated religiously, then you’d reject superficial dogmatic explanations of God. Religion, in my experience is in many ways anti-God because it tends to demand people look to the religion over truth & the higher GOoD. And they tend to deceive & distract people away from God - pretending if you pay them tithes, & jump through other of their hoops, you can be ok with God. When really, “the kingdom (realm/experience) of God is within you.”

I coulda sworn I explained this before - maybe to someone else.
Religion is anti-God? This is argument for argument's sake. Religion is essential to bring in the realization of God, as what you can communicate with. Without religion, God is just idea of perfection, ultimate, and infinite, something more distant than nature which at least you can forecast and wager. You can worship nature, but you cannot worship God alone because it is not manifest without religion.
Religions are human institutions like political parties are human institutions.

God is manifested through the lives and works of people, whether or not the people are affiliated to some religious institution.
How to make vaporous ideas of God into something you can understand is to see the manifestations of good in the material forms of good actions .

Thus for one man the worthship of nature is how he worthships God. For another man the worthship of the poor and needy is how he worthships God. For another man the worthship of religious ritual is how he worthships God. for another man the worthship of family is how he worthships God. What allows all these diverse Gods to live together amicably is tolerant attitude together with the rule of man -made laws.

In civilised coutries all these, and more, versions of God are tolerated as long as they don't break the law. In civilised countries the law includes the principle of Magna Carta, that every man is equal under the law. In order to ensure equality under the law, democracy is the most effective method.
gad-fly
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Re: God is dying. Will he be dead?

Post by gad-fly »

"Thus for one man . . ." You are over generalizing. Worship nature is not the same as worshipping God. Doing good deeds and charity is not worshipping God. They are not diverse Gods. The difference: religion and its manifestation.

Democracy allows toleration, including religious toleration.
Belindi
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Re: God is dying. Will he be dead?

Post by Belindi »

gad-fly wrote: November 30th, 2020, 2:14 pm "Thus for one man . . ." You are over generalizing. Worship nature is not the same as worshipping God. Doing good deeds and charity is not worshipping God. They are not diverse Gods. The difference: religion and its manifestation.

Democracy allows toleration, including religious toleration.
These are all aspects of the same God. For instance there is no one lion. Each person's lion is his own concept of lion. When we are talking abstractions such as the truth, or beauty, or God, each person's concept differs from every other concept.
baker
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Re: God is dying. Will he be dead?

Post by baker »

Belindi wrote: December 1st, 2020, 4:57 amWhen we are talking abstractions such as the truth, or beauty, or God, each person's concept differs from every other concept.
And hence might makes right is what remains.
Belindi
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Re: God is dying. Will he be dead?

Post by Belindi »

baker wrote: December 1st, 2020, 5:53 am
Belindi wrote: December 1st, 2020, 4:57 amWhen we are talking abstractions such as the truth, or beauty, or God, each person's concept differs from every other concept.
And hence might makes right is what remains.
We can reach a workable consensus. True, it is a permanent struggle to preserve democracy against people who want to have all the goods for themselves.

Or, in other words, "Might is right" is what we have to contend with. A never-ceasing struggle.
gad-fly
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Re: God is dying. Will he be dead?

Post by gad-fly »

The topic is "God", not democracy, might makes right, tolerant society, or whatever. Let us keep focused on religion, away from diversion.
Belindi
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Re: God is dying. Will he be dead?

Post by Belindi »

gad-fly wrote: December 1st, 2020, 1:49 pm The topic is "God", not democracy, might makes right, tolerant society, or whatever. Let us keep focused on religion, away from diversion.
But God is a socially generated idea among other socially generated ideas! This conversation is for comparing ideas about who is going to be the boss. The boss used to be 'God'.
gad-fly
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Re: God is dying. Will he be dead?

Post by gad-fly »

Belindi wrote: December 2nd, 2020, 7:12 am
gad-fly wrote: December 1st, 2020, 1:49 pm The topic is "God", not democracy, might makes right, tolerant society, or whatever. Let us keep focused on religion, away from diversion.
But God is a socially generated idea among other socially generated ideas! This conversation is for comparing ideas about who is going to be the boss. The boss used to be 'God'.
Not necessarily socially generated. Relationship and closeness to God can be, and often is, a personal experience. Isolated, you can feel his presence.

God is not necessarily a boss. He can be "our maker, defender, redeemer, and friend". He allows you to choose, and suffer the consequence (like Adam and Eve). He can intervene and help in his almighty way as he deems fit.
baker
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Re: God is dying. Will he be dead?

Post by baker »

gad-fly wrote: December 2nd, 2020, 12:36 pmNot necessarily socially generated. Relationship and closeness to God can be, and often is, a personal experience.
Isolated, you can feel his presence.
Not without (extensive) previous social training.
gad-fly
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Re: God is dying. Will he be dead?

Post by gad-fly »

A religious society is a social organization, no doubt, but religious belief and conversion is a personal experience and development, unlike a degree which you have to earn in university. Baptism is not much more than to formalize. Belief is not social training. Each story is different.
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