God is dying. Will he be dead?

Discuss philosophical questions regarding theism (and atheism), and discuss religion as it relates to philosophy. This includes any philosophical discussions that happen to be about god, gods, or a 'higher power' or the belief of them. This also generally includes philosophical topics about organized or ritualistic mysticism or about organized, common or ritualistic beliefs in the existence of supernatural phenomenon.
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Belindi
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Re: God is dying. Will he be dead?

Post by Belindi »

Greta wrote: December 8th, 2020, 4:41 pm
baker wrote: December 8th, 2020, 10:14 am
How can one be spiritual if one has not started out religious, or isn't still religious?

All I have ever heard on the topic of "God", I have heard from other people. I have no personal knowledge of God, and I see no way of having it.
Yes, it's impossible to grow up without having heard of the world's second biggest celebrity after King Donald I - God. So, if we were to construct an experiment, we'd need to find an indigenous tribe that hasn't already imagined gods or a god. Personally, I understand why indigenous people thought of the Earth, the Sun, mountains, rivers, volcanoes, giant trees and the like as gods because that's how I see them - huge, powerful and influential entities that make one feel puny and insignificant by comparison.

Having been lucky enough to have enjoyed a couple of peak experiences in the past, I feel confident that transcendent experiences would have originally pre-empted religion. In fact, religion was most likely a response to transcendental experiences. Alas, as we all know, once you have a group of people, you have politics - hierarchies and an in-group / out-group mentality. That is the emergence of immense political lobbying organisations and tax havens, whose political influence is based on social groups that they organise in every suburb and town, ie. "religions".
Are shamanistic practices common to some religions? Which sort of religions are they common to? I'd pick up on Greta's peak experiences together with her feeling of awe towards "Earth, the Sun, mountains, rivers, volcanoes, giant trees and the like as gods ", quoting Greta.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mana
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Sy Borg
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Re: God is dying. Will he be dead?

Post by Sy Borg »

Belindi wrote: December 8th, 2020, 7:25 pm
Greta wrote: December 8th, 2020, 4:41 pm
Yes, it's impossible to grow up without having heard of the world's second biggest celebrity after King Donald I - God. So, if we were to construct an experiment, we'd need to find an indigenous tribe that hasn't already imagined gods or a god. Personally, I understand why indigenous people thought of the Earth, the Sun, mountains, rivers, volcanoes, giant trees and the like as gods because that's how I see them - huge, powerful and influential entities that make one feel puny and insignificant by comparison.

Having been lucky enough to have enjoyed a couple of peak experiences in the past, I feel confident that transcendent experiences would have originally pre-empted religion. In fact, religion was most likely a response to transcendental experiences. Alas, as we all know, once you have a group of people, you have politics - hierarchies and an in-group / out-group mentality. That is the emergence of immense political lobbying organisations and tax havens, whose political influence is based on social groups that they organise in every suburb and town, ie. "religions".
Are shamanistic practices common to some religions? Which sort of religions are they common to? I'd pick up on Greta's peak experiences together with her feeling of awe towards "Earth, the Sun, mountains, rivers, volcanoes, giant trees and the like as gods ", quoting Greta.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mana
I would say socialising and networking practices are far more common in modern religion (aside from some of those fringe churches where people pretend to go into trances).
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Re: God is dying. Will he be dead?

Post by baker »

Greta wrote: December 8th, 2020, 4:41 pm
baker wrote: December 8th, 2020, 10:14 am How can one be spiritual if one has not started out religious, or isn't still religious?
All I have ever heard on the topic of "God", I have heard from other people. I have no personal knowledge of God, and I see no way of having it.
Yes, it's impossible to grow up without having heard of the world's second biggest celebrity after King Donald I - God.
Like I said, I have no personal knowledge of God, and most importantly, I see no way of having it. As far as I can see, it would require inventing some kind of theism of my own, something idiosyncratic. I don't see how I could justify that, much less how I could then escape the sense of solipsism.
Personally, I understand why indigenous people thought of the Earth, the Sun, mountains, rivers, volcanoes, giant trees and the like as gods because that's how I see them - huge, powerful and influential entities that make one feel puny and insignificant by comparison.
Sure. But I don't want to smear those trees and all those with the notion of, say, Jehovah.
For me, theism has always implied misery -- misery for me, while not necessarily for others. I suppose there are theists who are very happy in life, but I have always felt alienated from them, regardless of their specific theistic path or allegiance.
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Sy Borg
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Re: God is dying. Will he be dead?

Post by Sy Borg »

baker wrote: December 9th, 2020, 11:12 am
Personally, I understand why indigenous people thought of the Earth, the Sun, mountains, rivers, volcanoes, giant trees and the like as gods because that's how I see them - huge, powerful and influential entities that make one feel puny and insignificant by comparison.
Sure. But I don't want to smear those trees and all those with the notion of, say, Jehovah.
For me, theism has always implied misery -- misery for me, while not necessarily for others. I suppose there are theists who are very happy in life, but I have always felt alienated from them, regardless of their specific theistic path or allegiance.
There is a natural and intuitive sense of reverence towards the grandness and mysteries of nature and life that religions hijacked (just as they hijacked marriage ceremonies). I see no good reason to let religion's acquisitive little fingers get into one of the most profound - if not the most profound - aspects of my life.

When I look at one of the giant local gum trees and am amazed at its scale, power and influence (while being grateful for its shade in hot Aussie summers) I am thinking more like an indigenous person. I am not about to sing "All things bright and beautiful" to the tree. I am looking at its shape, how its roots drive into the ground and I wonder how far those roots extent. I am looking at the sunlight gleaming on the leaves. I listen to the leaves rustling in the breeze. I imagine the fluids within being drawn up from the roots. I am looking at the tree's relationship with surrounding organisms, I look for birds in its foliage. I think of how the tree is basically this huge piece of the Earth that slightly separated itself and pushed upwards to collect light from its star. That reminds me that I am the same, albeit a smaller, more mobile and strategic part of the Earth, and that my apparent separation from our planet is both brief and illusory.

Not much room for silly ole theism in such a conception, is there? Spirituality is similar to science, but it permits emotions. IMO spirituality means paying close attention to reality rather than sticking a label (like Jehovah) on it.
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Re: God is dying. Will he be dead?

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baker wrote: December 9th, 2020, 11:12 am...For me, theism has always implied misery -- misery for me, while not necessarily for others. I suppose there are theists who are very happy in life, but I have always felt alienated from them, regardless of their specific theistic path or allegiance.
I can relate but would extend that sense of alienation to all who blindly accept dogma - including political ideologies. Whether theist or ideologist, when conversing with them, I feel like I’m not actually talking to them individually but rather to the herd mentality of which they subscribe. Sometimes I can even predict their response - because I’ve heard it before many times.

Some dogma is fine but some is dysfunctional. So maybe it isn’t so bad if the dysfunctional parts die. Ironically, scripture talks of dying to be born again & maybe that’s what some ideas of God need to do. Carl Jung suggested that the story of Job was a major evolutionary change in the way of imagining God - from an arbitrary tyrant to be feared... to a more reasonable God to be reckoned (or as with Jacob - wrestled) with.

What is needed to evolve in better ways of considering God?
“Empty is the argument of the philosopher which does not relieve any human suffering.” - Epicurus
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Re: God is dying. Will he be dead?

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Newme wrote: December 17th, 2020, 10:27 pm I can relate but would extend that sense of alienation to all who blindly accept dogma - including political ideologies. Whether theist or ideologist, when conversing with them, I feel like I’m not actually talking to them individually but rather to the herd mentality of which they subscribe. Sometimes I can even predict their response - because I’ve heard it before many times.
One often finds that people as described can't read or make sense of those who think from first principles, hence the trouble ends up often being a two-way street.
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Re: God is dying. Will he be dead?

Post by Belindi »

Newme wrote: December 17th, 2020, 10:27 pm
baker wrote: December 9th, 2020, 11:12 am...For me, theism has always implied misery -- misery for me, while not necessarily for others. I suppose there are theists who are very happy in life, but I have always felt alienated from them, regardless of their specific theistic path or allegiance.
I can relate but would extend that sense of alienation to all who blindly accept dogma - including political ideologies. Whether theist or ideologist, when conversing with them, I feel like I’m not actually talking to them individually but rather to the herd mentality of which they subscribe. Sometimes I can even predict their response - because I’ve heard it before many times.

Some dogma is fine but some is dysfunctional. So maybe it isn’t so bad if the dysfunctional parts die. Ironically, scripture talks of dying to be born again & maybe that’s what some ideas of God need to do. Carl Jung suggested that the story of Job was a major evolutionary change in the way of imagining God - from an arbitrary tyrant to be feared... to a more reasonable God to be reckoned (or as with Jacob - wrestled) with.

What is needed to evolve in better ways of considering God?
I can sort of grasp that idea you floated, about the Book of Job. I'd like to read more, please.
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Re: God is dying. Will he be dead?

Post by NukeBan »

Newme wrote: December 17th, 2020, 10:27 pmIronically, scripture talks of dying to be born again & maybe that’s what some ideas of God need to do.


One interpretation of "dying to be reborn" might go as follows.

Both the thinker and their ideas are made of thought. In other words, we are one symbolic abstraction considering a collection of other symbolic abstractions. Given that we don't just have thoughts but the "me" experiencing these thoughts is itself made of thought, this involvement with symbolic abstractions can be a very compelling distraction from a focus on the real world. To the degree and for the time we can "die" to all these symbolic abstractions our attention is liberated, ie, reborn, to focus on the real world.

The question is not whether God exists in ideas, for clearly such a concept exists. The question is, does God exist in the real world? Do the ideas point to anything real?

We ask the question "does God exist in the real world", but then we rarely look in the real world, but instead look in books, ideas, doctrines, authority, argumentation, the group consensus logic etc, that is, the symbolic realm. This might be compared to my wife asking if there are any shoes in her closet, and I reply, "I don't know, I'll go look in the garage".
Newme wrote: December 17th, 2020, 10:27 pmWhat is needed to evolve in better ways of considering God?
One approach might be to shift the focus on the investigation from explanations to experience. That is, from the symbolic realm to the real world.
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Re: God is dying. Will he be dead?

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Papus79 wrote: December 17th, 2020, 11:40 pm
Newme wrote: December 17th, 2020, 10:27 pm I can relate but would extend that sense of alienation to all who blindly accept dogma - including political ideologies. Whether theist or ideologist, when conversing with them, I feel like I’m not actually talking to them individually but rather to the herd mentality of which they subscribe. Sometimes I can even predict their response - because I’ve heard it before many times.
One often finds that people as described can't read or make sense of those who think from first principles, hence the trouble ends up often being a two-way street.
I suppose it lies in the “college graduate” to relate to the kindergartener, not vice versa. And before I’m accused of being arrogant, I do appreciate that each person ya sunique strengths.

"Everybody is a genius. But if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will live its whole life believing that it is stupid."
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Re: God is dying. Will he be dead?

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Newme wrote: December 28th, 2020, 10:38 pm I suppose it lies in the “college graduate” to relate to the kindergartener, not vice versa. And before I’m accused of being arrogant, I do appreciate that each person ya sunique strengths.

"Everybody is a genius. But if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will live its whole life believing that it is stupid."
I feel like a lot of people are just forced to make Faustian bargains with the center of the social bell curve to stay in its social graces and 'have things' for being there. The more I look at this world it's an incredibly difficult environment for truth to prosper because it's in so few people's interests. Part of this is people's limitations of capacity, the other part is people who may not have those limits but realize that life is a social climbing and numbers game and so they too abandon problem-solving outside of narrow confines such as their area of employment.
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Re: God is dying. Will he be dead?

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Belindi wrote: December 18th, 2020, 8:01 am
Newme wrote: December 17th, 2020, 10:27 pm ...Carl Jung suggested that the story of Job was a major evolutionary change in the way of imagining God - from an arbitrary tyrant to be feared... to a more reasonable God to be reckoned (or as with Jacob - wrestled) with.
I can sort of grasp that idea you floated, about the Book of Job. I'd like to read more, please.
I’m glad to oblige, Belindi! :)

Carl Jung wrote how the beginning of Judaism’s history, only the masculine element of God was realized. Not until Job, was the other feminine side discovered. (The dove (Holy Spirit) was once called Astarte/Sophia.) Jung wrote...

“Though conscious of these demands, Job obviously does not know enough about the Sophia who is coeternal with God.

...Thus it was the men of the last few centuries before Christ who, at the gentle touch of the pre-existent Sophia compensate Yahweh and his attitude, and that the same time complete the anamnesis of Wisdom. Taking a highly personified form that is clear proof of her autonomy, Wisdom reveals herself to men as a friendly helper and advocate against Yahweh, and shows them the bright side, the kind, just and amiable aspect of their God.

...Her [Sophia’s] co-existence with Yahweh signifies the perpetual hieros gamos from which worlds are begotten and born.

...The approach of Sophia betokens a new creation. But this time it is not the world that is to be changed; rather it is God who intends to change his own nature. Mankind is not, as before, to be destroyed, but saved.”


Carl Jung wrote about how especially historically - we & our ancestors have been making god in our own image - from our own imagination. Jung explained that people saw God as tyrannical, unpredictable (blaming or crediting God for weather/crops) & unreasonable.

Job was a turning point when finally someone dared question God. All that time, nobody questioned God - or rather they didn’t question their imaginings of God. Yet, they had boldly claimed their unquestioned imaginings as “scripture” & thus we have some insanity like God saying, “Thou shalt not kill, not steal” and then supposedly telling them to steal and kill masses. If any passage is going to prove that we project our own ideas onto God - that is a good example. We need to “wrestle with God” - we’re supposed to. Scott Peck suggested an important lesson from the Adam & Eve parable is to question God - rather than to assume one thing or another - ask God - get more knowledge before doing something stupid. Carl Jung explained how Job was a turning point from seeing God as unreasonable, unpredictably punitive & one you couldn’t question... to questioning God and developing necessary faith in a more wise, reasonable God.
“Empty is the argument of the philosopher which does not relieve any human suffering.” - Epicurus
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Re: God is dying. Will he be dead?

Post by Joshua10 »

God is not Dead...The problem with man is that his belief system is based solely upon good is bad and bad is good or 0,1...1,0 logic.He forgets 0,0 and 1,1 logic.
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Re: God is dying. Will he be dead?

Post by Papus79 »

Joshua10 wrote: March 21st, 2021, 12:26 pm God is not Dead...The problem with man is that his belief system is based solely upon good is bad and bad is good or 0,1...1,0 logic.He forgets 0,0 and 1,1 logic.
This is part of why panentheism also makes way more sense to me than any of the Abrahamic theisms. If there were massive asymmetries between creator and creation, in which heaven and hell buckets were needed, something's wrong with the creator in that context.
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Re: God is dying. Will he be dead?

Post by gad-fly »

Papus79 wrote: March 22nd, 2021, 8:50 am This is part of why panentheism also makes way more sense to me than any of the Abrahamic theisms. If there were massive asymmetries between creator and creation, in which heaven and hell buckets were needed, something's wrong with the creator in that context.
What 's wrong? On the contrary, it may be healthy, like having government and opposition in a democracy. In this regard, Abraham theism is well ahead of its time, when master and slave abound.
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Re: God is dying. Will he be dead?

Post by Papus79 »

gad-fly wrote: April 7th, 2021, 11:19 am What 's wrong? On the contrary, it may be healthy, like having government and opposition in a democracy. In this regard, Abraham theism is well ahead of its time, when master and slave abound.
Two different thoughts on the above:

1) Metaphysically It only makes sense in terms of a little 'g' god that cobbled things together out of a substance not of itself where it can get things wrong all the time and make constant blunders (somewhat the opposite of a omnipresent, omniscient, and omnipotent deity which would have to be all things).

2) It makes a lot more sense as a societal lock box for certain social contracts - ie. project it up into the transcendental, say that it's sacred, even better governed by a deity with a real temper problem for infractions on rules, and what you have is then a memetic structures that safeguards / secures those social contracts for as long as the memetic complex (particularly belief in heaven and hell) still holds sway over public imagination.

My bet is that it's almost entirely the second that's behind this and it's possible as well that there could have been other agencies involved but highly unlikely to be what they claimed they were.
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