God is dying. Will he be dead?

Discuss philosophical questions regarding theism (and atheism), and discuss religion as it relates to philosophy. This includes any philosophical discussions that happen to be about god, gods, or a 'higher power' or the belief of them. This also generally includes philosophical topics about organized or ritualistic mysticism or about organized, common or ritualistic beliefs in the existence of supernatural phenomenon.
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Belindi
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Re: God is dying. Will he be dead?

Post by Belindi »

Joshua10 wrote: July 10th, 2022, 4:08 am Secular science cannot go any further than NOT understanding consciousness.It’s their “hard” problem and will remain their “hard” problem.

In order to understand consciousness one first has to accept the possibility that PRESENCE exists and secular scientists aren’t going to do that because if they accept a PRESENCE as separate from consciousness then the possibility of a God becomes even more of a possibility and they certainly don’t want to entertain that idea.

Consciousness is easy to understand if you introduce a separate PRESENCE.A child could understand it.Consciousness then becomes an “easy” problem to resolve.

Mainstream science is it a major cross roads and many scientists are aware of this.
Regarding "PRESENCE" :

It's true that others with whom we can communicate are necessarily present to us, as part of our environments. Even if Joshua or Sy were the last human being on Earth he or she would imagine the lively possibility of some other being to communicate with perhaps an 'alien', or a ghost, or an intelligent monkey.

If a man imagines God as intelligent other, that man needs, for the good of his own psyche, to decide whether or not that God he has in mind is his own or a construct of other people that he pretends is his own construct. A man needs to think for himself.
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Re: God is dying. Will he be dead?

Post by Joshua10 »

Consciousness doesn’t have awareness and certainly cannot exercise control over Presence.

However,

Presence has awareness and does exercise control overview consciousness.
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Sy Borg
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Re: God is dying. Will he be dead?

Post by Sy Borg »

Joshua10 wrote: July 10th, 2022, 9:33 am Consciousness doesn’t have awareness and certainly cannot exercise control over Presence.

However,

Presence has awareness and does exercise control overview consciousness.
These are non sequiturs.

Consciousness IS awareness. The whole point of consciousness is to exercise control over one's presence in reality.

However, for you, everything is infused with a deity dreamed up in Middle East during the Iron Age, which you carefully refer to as PRESENCE. Is all of reality infused with intelligence? Some think so. However, this idea is what is known as SPECULATION. Thus, you have no reasonable justification for repeated slurs attacks against scientists and the scientific method.

You need to find some humility and accept that you know MUCH less about consciousness than researchers who have spent their working lives studying and working with the phenomenon. You are not a super genius who can, with some quick study of some stuff online, surpass those who have done decades of work in the field. It's perhaps nice for you to imagine so, but that would simply be the Dunning-Kruger effect in action.
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Re: God is dying. Will he be dead?

Post by Joshua10 »

Sy Borg wrote: July 10th, 2022, 10:49 pm
Joshua10 wrote: July 10th, 2022, 9:33 am Consciousness doesn’t have awareness and certainly cannot exercise control over Presence.

However,

Presence has awareness and does exercise control overview consciousness.
These are non sequiturs.

Consciousness IS awareness. The whole point of consciousness is to exercise control over one's presence in reality.

However, for you, everything is infused with a deity dreamed up in Middle East during the Iron Age, which you carefully refer to as PRESENCE. Is all of reality infused with intelligence? Some think so. However, this idea is what is known as SPECULATION. Thus, you have no reasonable justification for repeated slurs attacks against scientists and the scientific method.

You need to find some humility and accept that you know MUCH less about consciousness than researchers who have spent their working lives studying and working with the phenomenon. You are not a super genius who can, with some quick study of some stuff online, surpass those who have done decades of work in the field. It's perhaps nice for you to imagine so, but that would simply be the Dunning-Kruger effect in action.
Consciousness is not awarenessThey are different.

There are 2 types of consciousness manual and autopilot.Presence is either aware or unaware of this.

Presence is neither, but “toggles” between these 2 consciousness states in awareness or unawareness all the time..

This isn’t open for conjecture,this is fact.

Presence,if aware, is able to change the consciousness states.

PRESENCE can go inward and PRESENCE can bring oneself back back out again from the inward consciousness state.

It’s mainstream secular scientists who need to learn humility.They can learn it the easy way or the hard way.

The stuff I post is practical.Individuals will know that what I post is true because they will be able to put it into practice.
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Re: God is dying. Will he be dead?

Post by Sy Borg »

Joshua10 wrote: July 11th, 2022, 12:48 am
Sy Borg wrote: July 10th, 2022, 10:49 pm
Joshua10 wrote: July 10th, 2022, 9:33 am Consciousness doesn’t have awareness and certainly cannot exercise control over Presence.

However,

Presence has awareness and does exercise control overview consciousness.
These are non sequiturs.

Consciousness IS awareness. The whole point of consciousness is to exercise control over one's presence in reality.

However, for you, everything is infused with a deity dreamed up in Middle East during the Iron Age, which you carefully refer to as PRESENCE. Is all of reality infused with intelligence? Some think so. However, this idea is what is known as SPECULATION. Thus, you have no reasonable justification for repeated slurs attacks against scientists and the scientific method.

You need to find some humility and accept that you know MUCH less about consciousness than researchers who have spent their working lives studying and working with the phenomenon. You are not a super genius who can, with some quick study of some stuff online, surpass those who have done decades of work in the field. It's perhaps nice for you to imagine so, but that would simply be the Dunning-Kruger effect in action.
Consciousness is not awarenessThey are different.

There are 2 types of consciousness manual and autopilot.Presence is either aware or unaware of this.

Presence is neither, but “toggles” between these 2 consciousness states in awareness or unawareness all the time..

This isn’t open for conjecture,this is fact.

Presence,if aware, is able to change the consciousness states.

PRESENCE can go inward and PRESENCE can bring oneself back back out again from the inward consciousness state.

It’s mainstream secular scientists who need to learn humility.They can learn it the easy way or the hard way.

The stuff I post is practical.Individuals will know that what I post is true because they will be able to put it into practice.
"Manual" and "autopilot" are the conscious mind and the unconscious mind. Presence, by your definition, is basically the superego, the mind's executive function.

You are demonstrating a pretty standard case of the Dunning-Kruger effect.
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Sy Borg
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Re: God is dying. Will he be dead?

Post by Sy Borg »

Let's return to the thread topic:
gad-fly wrote: February 9th, 2020, 4:02 pm “God is Dead.” is a widely-quoted statement by Friedrich Nietzsche to express his idea that the Enlightenment has eliminated the possibility of the existence of God. After Mark Twain’s obituary was mistakenly published, he sent a cable from London stating “The reports of my death are greatly exaggerated”. Put the two together, and substitute Twain by God, we could have “The reports of God’s death are greatly exaggerated”, but for the sake that God has not cabled back from London. Once aroused by Nietzsche, debates and reports on God’s death have continued and are likely to continue into the foreseeable future.

I am not here to bury God, or to praise him. When we humans first emerged on Earth, God’s angry super-power is everywhere, in thunderstorm, solar eclipse, earthquake, and volcanic eruption. On the good side, we would show our genuine appreciation after a good harvest, with animal and sometimes even with human sacrifice. Not today, though. Some of us after winning the jackpot would not even say thank you, let alone donating to the church. It is apparent that God’s presence has been vastly reduced, from say over 50% to lower than 1%. From this historical perspective, it should be fair to suggest that he is dying.

Assuming that he can continue to die away, when will he be dead? It cannot be ruled out that he may outlive the human race. Or should we issue his dead certificate only when his presence is dropped to below 0.01%?
What Nietzsche meant by "God is dead. God remains dead. And we have killed him" is that people no longer believed in such things. It was not an ontic claim but a reference to the subjective nature of deities.
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Re: God is dying. Will he be dead?

Post by Joshua10 »

Sy Borg wrote: July 11th, 2022, 2:01 am
Joshua10 wrote: July 11th, 2022, 12:48 am
Sy Borg wrote: July 10th, 2022, 10:49 pm
Joshua10 wrote: July 10th, 2022, 9:33 am Consciousness doesn’t have awareness and certainly cannot exercise control over Presence.

However,

Presence has awareness and does exercise control overview consciousness.
These are non sequiturs.

Consciousness IS awareness. The whole point of consciousness is to exercise control over one's presence in reality.

However, for you, everything is infused with a deity dreamed up in Middle East during the Iron Age, which you carefully refer to as PRESENCE. Is all of reality infused with intelligence? Some think so. However, this idea is what is known as SPECULATION. Thus, you have no reasonable justification for repeated slurs attacks against scientists and the scientific method.

You need to find some humility and accept that you know MUCH less about consciousness than researchers who have spent their working lives studying and working with the phenomenon. You are not a super genius who can, with some quick study of some stuff online, surpass those who have done decades of work in the field. It's perhaps nice for you to imagine so, but that would simply be the Dunning-Kruger effect in action.
Consciousness is not awarenessThey are different.

There are 2 types of consciousness manual and autopilot.Presence is either aware or unaware of this.

Presence is neither, but “toggles” between these 2 consciousness states in awareness or unawareness all the time..

This isn’t open for conjecture,this is fact.

Presence,if aware, is able to change the consciousness states.

PRESENCE can go inward and PRESENCE can bring oneself back back out again from the inward consciousness state.

It’s mainstream secular scientists who need to learn humility.They can learn it the easy way or the hard way.

The stuff I post is practical.Individuals will know that what I post is true because they will be able to put it into practice.
"Manual" and "autopilot" are the conscious mind and the unconscious mind. Presence, by your definition, is basically the superego, the mind's executive function.

You are demonstrating a pretty standard case of the Dunning-Kruger effect.
Presence is separate from awareness and awareness is separate from consciousness.

There is awareness and there is unawareness.You mention awareness but you forget to mention unawareness.One is aware and unaware.

PRESENCE is aware that there are 2 consciousness states that it interacts with and can CONTROL which of these states it resides within in any given moment.

If PRESENCE is unaware it doesn’t exercise control.

As secular scientists don’t accept PRESENCE they are unawre that the consciousness states can be CONTROLLED in this way.

Mainstream secular science has a lot to learn about the practical interactions of PRESENCE,AWARENESS and CONSCIOUSNESS.

Ego?…Superego?…gravity?… black holes? …all terminology secular mainstream science and philosophy utilises in the pursuit of their lopsided science.
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Sy Borg
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Re: God is dying. Will he be dead?

Post by Sy Borg »

Caps lock, repeating yourself and belligerence do not make your ideas any more coherent. Your contempt for science is amusing and ironic, given your reliance on the disciplines you decry in most areas of your life.

BTW, I did mention unawareness - the unconscious mind - but you seemed to have missed it.

Let's forget this interaction. It is repetitive and dull.
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Re: God is dying. Will he be dead?

Post by Joshua10 »

Sy Borg wrote: July 11th, 2022, 3:53 am Caps lock, repeating yourself and belligerence do not make your ideas any more coherent. Your contempt for science is amusing and ironic, given your reliance on the disciplines you decry in most areas of your life.

BTW, I did mention unawareness - the unconscious mind - but you seemed to have missed it.

Let's forget this interaction. It is repetitive and dull.
It is only repetitive and dull to you because it suits your secular biased science and philosophy and you don’t understand it.

Presence is separate from awareness and unawareness and is separate from the manual and autopilot consciousness states.

You appear completely oblivious to this FACT.
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Re: God is dying. Will he be dead?

Post by Joshua10 »

I can even prove it.Bring yourself into the moment or into manual and try to stay there…You won’t be able to.You will default back into autopilot all the time.
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Re: God is dying. Will he be dead?

Post by Joshua10 »

This simple “toggling” FACT is related to the wider sciences and ELECTROMECHANICAL processes which make everything operate in the universe at both macro and micro levels.

All sciences are interconnected.
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Re: God is dying. Will he be dead?

Post by Sy Borg »

What has this to do with the topic?
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Re: God is dying. Will he be dead?

Post by Belindi »

Joshua10 wrote: July 11th, 2022, 12:48 am
Sy Borg wrote: July 10th, 2022, 10:49 pm
Joshua10 wrote: July 10th, 2022, 9:33 am Consciousness doesn’t have awareness and certainly cannot exercise control over Presence.

However,

Presence has awareness and does exercise control overview consciousness.
These are non sequiturs.

Consciousness IS awareness. The whole point of consciousness is to exercise control over one's presence in reality.

However, for you, everything is infused with a deity dreamed up in Middle East during the Iron Age, which you carefully refer to as PRESENCE. Is all of reality infused with intelligence? Some think so. However, this idea is what is known as SPECULATION. Thus, you have no reasonable justification for repeated slurs attacks against scientists and the scientific method.

You need to find some humility and accept that you know MUCH less about consciousness than researchers who have spent their working lives studying and working with the phenomenon. You are not a super genius who can, with some quick study of some stuff online, surpass those who have done decades of work in the field. It's perhaps nice for you to imagine so, but that would simply be the Dunning-Kruger effect in action.
Consciousness is not awarenessThey are different.

There are 2 types of consciousness manual and autopilot.Presence is either aware or unaware of this.

Presence is neither, but “toggles” between these 2 consciousness states in awareness or unawareness all the time..

This isn’t open for conjecture,this is fact.

Presence,if aware, is able to change the consciousness states.

PRESENCE can go inward and PRESENCE can bring oneself back back out again from the inward consciousness state.

It’s mainstream secular scientists who need to learn humility.They can learn it the easy way or the hard way.

The stuff I post is practical.Individuals will know that what I post is true because they will be able to put it into practice.
More than 2 sorts of consciousness. There are waking awareness, dreaming C, hallucinating C, dreamless sleep C. Maybe more for all I know. The sort of C correlates with the neurochemicals that are active at the time.

During some of these states of C you are present to yourself: others not so.

There is a 3-D graph available that shows the suggested or probable location of the C on axes of the several neurochemicals.

As Sy Borg wrote, the so-called death of God is a subjective state . It's the psychological crisis when when you realise that your future, including your belief system, is in your own hands, not God's.
This cognition arises during waking awareness and may pervade dreams and hallucinations as well.

Waking awareness may be focused or unfocused. Some people believe thoughts arrive willynilly , always. This is simply not true. People can learn to discipline and focus their thoughts without much difficulty. When you do science you are focusing your thought: when you ruminate you are not focusing your thought. Don't confuse pointless rumination with creative imagination!
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Re: God is dying. Will he be dead?

Post by Joshua10 »

Belindi wrote: July 11th, 2022, 6:32 am
Joshua10 wrote: July 11th, 2022, 12:48 am
Sy Borg wrote: July 10th, 2022, 10:49 pm
Joshua10 wrote: July 10th, 2022, 9:33 am Consciousness doesn’t have awareness and certainly cannot exercise control over Presence.

However,

Presence has awareness and does exercise control overview consciousness.
These are non sequiturs.

Consciousness IS awareness. The whole point of consciousness is to exercise control over one's presence in reality.

However, for you, everything is infused with a deity dreamed up in Middle East during the Iron Age, which you carefully refer to as PRESENCE. Is all of reality infused with intelligence? Some think so. However, this idea is what is known as SPECULATION. Thus, you have no reasonable justification for repeated slurs attacks against scientists and the scientific method.

You need to find some humility and accept that you know MUCH less about consciousness than researchers who have spent their working lives studying and working with the phenomenon. You are not a super genius who can, with some quick study of some stuff online, surpass those who have done decades of work in the field. It's perhaps nice for you to imagine so, but that would simply be the Dunning-Kruger effect in action.
Consciousness is not awarenessThey are different.

There are 2 types of consciousness manual and autopilot.Presence is either aware or unaware of this.

Presence is neither, but “toggles” between these 2 consciousness states in awareness or unawareness all the time..

This isn’t open for conjecture,this is fact.

Presence,if aware, is able to change the consciousness states.

PRESENCE can go inward and PRESENCE can bring oneself back back out again from the inward consciousness state.

It’s mainstream secular scientists who need to learn humility.They can learn it the easy way or the hard way.

The stuff I post is practical.Individuals will know that what I post is true because they will be able to put it into practice.
More than 2 sorts of consciousness. There are waking awareness, dreaming C, hallucinating C, dreamless sleep C. Maybe more for all I know. The sort of C correlates with the neurochemicals that are active at the time.

During some of these states of C you are present to yourself: others not so.

There is a 3-D graph available that shows the suggested or probable location of the C on axes of the several neurochemicals.

As Sy Borg wrote, the so-called death of God is a subjective state . It's the psychological crisis when when you realise that your future, including your belief system, is in your own hands, not God's.
This cognition arises during waking awareness and may pervade dreams and hallucinations as well.

Waking awareness may be focused or unfocused. Some people believe thoughts arrive willynilly , always. This is simply not true. People can learn to discipline and focus their thoughts without much difficulty. When you do science you are focusing your thought: when you ruminate you are not focusing your thought. Don't confuse pointless rumination with creative imagination!
I am not confusing anything at all.I am only referring to normal waking consciousness that is working correctly, and not affected by drugs or other factors i.e. Normal waking consciousness that PRESENCE has the ability to CONTROL.

Taking control and bringing oneself into the moment has absolutely nothing at all to do with FOCUSING thoughts.

There are two types of thought inward and outward.

One engages with inward thoughts in autopilot …one doesn’t need to engage with outward thoughts in manual.
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Re: God is dying. Will he be dead?

Post by Greatest I am »

Joshua10 wrote: July 9th, 2022, 5:05 am
Greatest I am wrote: July 8th, 2022, 10:48 am
Joshua10 wrote: July 7th, 2022, 2:32 am
Greatest I am wrote: July 6th, 2022, 10:38 am I have no idea of what you are talking about, and science only partially knows how the universe works.

That has nothing to do with my moral question.

Perhaps your reply was meant for another.

Regards
DL
Sorry, my last point was meant for Sy Borg,

On your morals point …what actually is your point? You are trying to blame someone who doesn’t exist in your hopeful belief system.They need to exist before you can blame them.

Presumably,you already accept that man is responsible for all the atrocities throughout history, so why would introducing a God change that?
To give a source of thought which stems from the body/soul thinking we almost all do.

They call it substance dualism.

We are born with our physical self telling us we are the fittest of our kind, and our dual thinking thinking telling us we have some kind of non-material connection to reality.

Are you part of the 95% of us who are thinking that way?

Regards
DL
Dualism is associated with consciousness states .We are not consciousness states,just as we are not thoughts or emotions.
Sure we are. Just listen to yourself.

That aside, --- I am speaking of what this gent is talking about.

Try googling --

Religion Has No Earthly Purpose, So Why Do We Cling to It? | Reza Aslan | Big Think

Regards
DL
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