God and Human: Who has created Whom?

Discuss philosophical questions regarding theism (and atheism), and discuss religion as it relates to philosophy. This includes any philosophical discussions that happen to be about god, gods, or a 'higher power' or the belief of them. This also generally includes philosophical topics about organized or ritualistic mysticism or about organized, common or ritualistic beliefs in the existence of supernatural phenomenon.
gad-fly
Posts: 175
Joined: October 23rd, 2019, 4:48 pm

God and Human: Who has created Whom?

Post by gad-fly » February 11th, 2020, 3:46 pm

This post is parallel to the preceding one asking: Will God be dead? But I am confusing you, since the attention I am seeking from you is really one-sided: Have we created God? If so, are we the only primate in the animal kingdom with this creative thinking? Why should we bother?

Perhaps we are all prisoners of our own devise, as sung in “Hotel California”. We can check out any time, but we can never leave. We are welcomed to this lovely place, and indeed it is such a lovely place. This begs the last question: We may sing about it, but why would we ask?

User avatar
Mark_Lee
New Trial Member
Posts: 7
Joined: November 8th, 2017, 9:42 pm

Re: God and Human: Who has created Whom?

Post by Mark_Lee » February 11th, 2020, 8:37 pm

As a devout Christian, I believe God created Man. And I refuse to believe that we are just another animal. I wouldn't go so far as to ascribe to the philosophical notion that lesser beings are unconscious zombies, but I do think we humans are of a different ilk.

God came to us with the promise of a better place. Animals were never granted that honor because they are lesser creatures. Stronger and faster for sure, but not more superior.

User avatar
Greta
Site Admin
Posts: 8580
Joined: December 16th, 2013, 9:05 pm

Re: God and Human: Who has created Whom?

Post by Greta » February 12th, 2020, 2:46 am

Mark_Lee wrote:
February 11th, 2020, 8:37 pm
As a devout Christian, I believe God created Man. And I refuse to believe that we are just another animal.
Ha! My Catholic mother used the same preface ... "I refuse to believe", as if emotion mattered in the slightest. For Mum, the refusal was to believe that humans evolved from apes. Like the Elephant Man, she would entreat, "I am not an animal!".

But of course, we all are animals. Each of us, like any other animal, a small piece of the planet Earth, and we will return to it.

We are not only animals, but we are very much like other animals, the difference being about 1% genetically, but that 1% is important in terms of empowerment. Unlike other animal species, Homo sapiens has an extra ability.

Like other dominant species, our success comes from having this an extra capacity. Trilobites dominated the world because they were the first animals to enjoy good, clear vision. Dinosaurs were the first to employ terrifying power. Humans are the first species to be able to mentally project the future and recall the past. Mentally, humans are more temporally free, less locked into the moment (or at least we are after a few years - until then, our sentience is less than that of adults of other intelligent species, despite our claims to divinity from conception).

Humans, like other animals (and plants, fungi and bacteria) were created by the Sun, and then the Earth. The Sun was created by larger stars and, ultimately, you can be sure that somewhere in our past has been significant black hole activity.

There is certainly no reason to discard thousands of years of worldwide learning just to adhere to a Middle Eastern myth of two thousand years ago, only brought to popularity by Constantine. Why not a Chinese creed of a thousand years ago? Or an African myth of four thousand years ago? Do we really believe that the Middle East - godforsaken disaster zone that it is - is the holy land from which the only truth emanated? I see the Abrahamic creeds as far less sophisticated and grounded than the ideas of Buddhists and Taoists in the Far East.

User avatar
Steve3007
Posts: 6813
Joined: June 15th, 2011, 5:53 pm
Favorite Philosopher: Eratosthenes
Location: UK

Re: God and Human: Who has created Whom?

Post by Steve3007 » February 12th, 2020, 3:50 am

gad-fly wrote:Perhaps we are all prisoners of our own devise, as sung in “Hotel California”.
If you're interested, the philosophy of The Eagles can be explored further by considering the song "Take It Easy" as an interesting twist on Zeno's Paradox.

viewtopic.php?p=325401#p325401

User avatar
Terrapin Station
Posts: 1380
Joined: August 23rd, 2016, 3:00 pm
Favorite Philosopher: Bertrand Russell and WVO Quine
Location: NYC Man

Re: God and Human: Who has created Whom?

Post by Terrapin Station » February 12th, 2020, 5:46 am

I'll answer this right after I finish figuring out if we created the Cat in the Hat or whether the Cat in the Hat created us.

gad-fly
Posts: 175
Joined: October 23rd, 2019, 4:48 pm

Re: God and Human: Who has created Whom?

Post by gad-fly » February 12th, 2020, 1:57 pm

Steve3007 wrote:
February 12th, 2020, 3:50 am
gad-fly wrote:Perhaps we are all prisoners of our own devise, as sung in “Hotel California”.
If you're interested, the philosophy of The Eagles can be explored further by considering the song "Take It Easy" as an interesting twist on Zeno's Paradox.

viewtopic.php?p=325401#p325401
Assume human beings have created God. In Christianity, they would call him The Lord. They become lambs to be guided by the shepherd. They prayed to him for help. Worse, they fall into the trap of original sin from which they cannot have salvation but for Jesus Christ. They have to repent their ways to accord with God' wishes. They must praise the Lord. In this respect, are we not prisoners of our own devise?

User avatar
Pattern-chaser
Posts: 372
Joined: September 22nd, 2019, 5:17 am
Favorite Philosopher: Cratylus
Location: England

Re: God and Human: Who has created Whom?

Post by Pattern-chaser » February 13th, 2020, 12:05 pm

Mark_Lee wrote:
February 11th, 2020, 8:37 pm
As a devout Christian, I believe God created Man. And I refuse to believe that we are just another animal. I wouldn't go so far as to ascribe to the philosophical notion that lesser beings are unconscious zombies, but I do think we humans are of a different ilk.

God came to us with the promise of a better place. Animals were never granted that honor because they are lesser creatures. Stronger and faster for sure, but not more superior.
Isn't this the attitude that lead humans to believe the world is there for them to use, and not to share with all the other living things who also call this place "home"? 😢
Pattern-chaser

"Who cares, wins"

User avatar
Pattern-chaser
Posts: 372
Joined: September 22nd, 2019, 5:17 am
Favorite Philosopher: Cratylus
Location: England

Re: God and Human: Who has created Whom?

Post by Pattern-chaser » February 13th, 2020, 12:11 pm

Greta wrote:
February 12th, 2020, 2:46 am
I see the Abrahamic creeds as far less sophisticated and grounded than the ideas of Buddhists and Taoists in the Far East.
After being raised by a cult (RC), as you were, I also ended up with Eastern religious philosophies, not adversarial Western ones. When asked, I describe myself as a Gaian Daoist, a philosophical Daoist, informed by hippy, druidic, tree-hugging religious sentiments.

Who has created whom? Neither, I believe. God is an emergent phenomenon, while humans are ... human. Is it necessary that one created the other?
Pattern-chaser

"Who cares, wins"

User avatar
Mark_Lee
New Trial Member
Posts: 7
Joined: November 8th, 2017, 9:42 pm

Re: God and Human: Who has created Whom?

Post by Mark_Lee » February 13th, 2020, 12:29 pm

Pattern-chaser wrote:
February 13th, 2020, 12:05 pm
Mark_Lee wrote:
February 11th, 2020, 8:37 pm
As a devout Christian, I believe God created Man. And I refuse to believe that we are just another animal. I wouldn't go so far as to ascribe to the philosophical notion that lesser beings are unconscious zombies, but I do think we humans are of a different ilk.

God came to us with the promise of a better place. Animals were never granted that honor because they are lesser creatures. Stronger and faster for sure, but not more superior.
Isn't this the attitude that lead humans to believe the world is there for them to use, and not to share with all the other living things who also call this place "home"? 😢
Lesser creatures (animals) are meant for three things and three things only. Number one: to be eaten. Number two: to be kept as pets. Number three: to serve us for our benefit, such as a horse to be ridden or a water buffalo for farming. There's also the case of blood leeches for medicinal usage. Dung beetles count too with whatever they do that's beneficial.

I believe that as long as we humans are not the source of torment for animals, we are free to eat them and subdue them. I need to make it clear to everyone that we are the premier beneficiaries of this planet. Our pets are not our children and shouldn't be treated as such.

And like I said, though I do not ascribe to the idea that animals are consciousless zombies, I do think they are LESSER CREATURES.

gad-fly
Posts: 175
Joined: October 23rd, 2019, 4:48 pm

Re: God and Human: Who has created Whom?

Post by gad-fly » February 13th, 2020, 2:25 pm

Greta wrote:
February 12th, 2020, 2:46 am
I see the Abrahamic creeds as far less sophisticated and grounded than the ideas of Buddhists and Taoists in the Far East.
The Eastern religions, whether more sophisticated or not, are grounded differently. There is no God in the context of being a creator or Almightly. Nirvana in Buddhism and Hinduism is absolute blessedness or adsorption into Brahman by one's own dedication, not by the mercy of the savior. You want to reach the other shore? It depends on how hard you swim. Some would call Buddhism a crypto religion, or a non-religion.

I have an idea to the question that I have posted. God creates us, and we create God. It is like chicken and egg. Happy ending, and beginning too?

User avatar
Papus79
Posts: 446
Joined: February 19th, 2017, 6:59 pm

Re: God and Human: Who has created Whom?

Post by Papus79 » February 13th, 2020, 11:19 pm

I offered this in a different thread but - I don't think it matters and I don't think it's available knowledge.

What we have around us are various strong forms of theism, which in the sense of the Abrahamic traditions these are really politics first - and that shows with how intertwined or similar political and formal religious behavior and identity tend to be. While I do find people like John of the Cross, Teresa of Avila, Boehme, Mansur Al Halaj, etc. interesting in the scope and style of their experiences (the Golden Dawn and A.'.A.'. ran full speed at the 'Knowledge and Conversation' model of personal inner-cosmology) are a very different thing than what most common Christians, Muslims, and Jews that I've met tend to believe. If anything this tends to progressively walk the Abrahamic symbol sets back toward something like a Daoist, Hindu, or Buddhist framework.

The key thing - if you're mystically inclined your encounters will be with yourself and they'll be built upon your relationship with yourself (Jung did a good job of unpacking this and I found John Vervaeke's conversations with Anderson Todd worth recommending for that). As for answers from the totality of the universe - good luck, if it actually does happen you may be the first person in history, maybe even the last, and that's also completely agnostic as to whether such attention wouldn't plant a super massive black hole where our solar system used to be.

User avatar
Greta
Site Admin
Posts: 8580
Joined: December 16th, 2013, 9:05 pm

Re: God and Human: Who has created Whom?

Post by Greta » February 14th, 2020, 1:48 am

gad-fly wrote:
February 13th, 2020, 2:25 pm
Greta wrote:
February 12th, 2020, 2:46 am
I see the Abrahamic creeds as far less sophisticated and grounded than the ideas of Buddhists and Taoists in the Far East.
The Eastern religions, whether more sophisticated or not, are grounded differently. There is no God in the context of being a creator or Almightly. Nirvana in Buddhism and Hinduism is absolute blessedness or adsorption into Brahman by one's own dedication, not by the mercy of the savior. You want to reach the other shore? It depends on how hard you swim. Some would call Buddhism a crypto religion, or a non-religion.

I have an idea to the question that I have posted. God creates us, and we create God. It is like chicken and egg. Happy ending, and beginning too?
Oh, just about anything can be God. Love. Compassion. Justice. Consciousness. The universe. You name it. Heck, some are even claiming that Trump is God's vessel. You might as well add your latest idea to the list, which is not new either. As George Carlin et all have said, "We created god in our own image and likeness."

What I like about the far east religions is their interest in exploring the psyche and reporting their results, rather than relying only on fixed doctrines.

Not sure how happy the ending will be and, alas, if I do find out I won't be able to let you know.

User avatar
Greta
Site Admin
Posts: 8580
Joined: December 16th, 2013, 9:05 pm

Re: God and Human: Who has created Whom?

Post by Greta » February 14th, 2020, 1:54 am

Papus79 wrote:
February 13th, 2020, 11:19 pm
The key thing - if you're mystically inclined your encounters will be with yourself and they'll be built upon your relationship with yourself (Jung did a good job of unpacking this and I found John Vervaeke's conversations with Anderson Todd worth recommending for that). As for answers from the totality of the universe - good luck, if it actually does happen you may be the first person in history, maybe even the last, and that's also completely agnostic as to whether such attention wouldn't plant a super massive black hole where our solar system used to be.
Much of that comes down to individual temperament. As far as I can tell, the idea of life is to get your "stuff" together. Your stuff. We all have different aptitudes, preferences, strengths and frailties and we need to juggle these (relatively) unique traits without guidance. Others can only tell you how to be someone else.

So, for introverts, retreat can aid actualisation. Extroverts, though, actualise through the theatres of sociality and politics. Those who love science might grow by studying something very specific, while philosophers tend to need a broad field in which to graze.

User avatar
h_k_s
Posts: 998
Joined: November 25th, 2018, 12:09 pm
Favorite Philosopher: Aristotle
Location: Rocky Mountains

Re: God and Human: Who has created Whom?

Post by h_k_s » February 14th, 2020, 2:02 am

gad-fly wrote:
February 11th, 2020, 3:46 pm
This post is parallel to the preceding one asking: Will God be dead? But I am confusing you, since the attention I am seeking from you is really one-sided: Have we created God? If so, are we the only primate in the animal kingdom with this creative thinking? Why should we bother?

Perhaps we are all prisoners of our own devise, as sung in “Hotel California”. We can check out any time, but we can never leave. We are welcomed to this lovely place, and indeed it is such a lovely place. This begs the last question: We may sing about it, but why would we ask?
Hotel California was a song by the Eagles about a motorcyclist who falls asleep at the wheel and dies and goes to Hell.

User avatar
h_k_s
Posts: 998
Joined: November 25th, 2018, 12:09 pm
Favorite Philosopher: Aristotle
Location: Rocky Mountains

Re: God and Human: Who has created Whom?

Post by h_k_s » February 14th, 2020, 2:03 am

Mark_Lee wrote:
February 11th, 2020, 8:37 pm
As a devout Christian, I believe God created Man. And I refuse to believe that we are just another animal. I wouldn't go so far as to ascribe to the philosophical notion that lesser beings are unconscious zombies, but I do think we humans are of a different ilk.

God came to us with the promise of a better place. Animals were never granted that honor because they are lesser creatures. Stronger and faster for sure, but not more superior.
I believe that animals are just as human as humans are. Especially cats.

Post Reply