Where Did 'God' Come From?

Discuss philosophical questions regarding theism (and atheism), and discuss religion as it relates to philosophy. This includes any philosophical discussions that happen to be about god, gods, or a 'higher power' or the belief of them. This also generally includes philosophical topics about organized or ritualistic mysticism or about organized, common or ritualistic beliefs in the existence of supernatural phenomenon.
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NukeBan
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Re: Where Did 'God' Come From?

Post by NukeBan » April 30th, 2020, 11:35 am

Sculptor1 wrote:
April 29th, 2020, 4:31 pm
It is absurd to suggest a human concept might have predated humans.
I don't think that's what was being suggested. Instead, the question was....
Obviously the word 'God' was invented, but was what the word God referred to invented also? Or, does that exist and always has?
My take, the fact that human beings invented the concept of God and the word "God" really tells us nothing about whether or not something God-like exists in the real world.

Humans invented the word "tree" also.

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Marvin_Edwards
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Re: Where Did 'God' Come From?

Post by Marvin_Edwards » April 30th, 2020, 5:57 pm

detail wrote:
April 29th, 2020, 2:08 pm
The word god , somehow came from the word to spill or to pour some fluids in order to conjure the deity. Perhaps the word stem from the old indo-germanic word ghouto , to conjure or to spill or to pour fluids (beer, blood etc.) in honor for something could somehow explain somehow the reasoning of the word itself.
I like to imagine that God is derived "good" and that Devil is derived from "evil".

evolution
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Re: Where Did 'God' Come From?

Post by evolution » April 30th, 2020, 7:10 pm

Sculptor1 wrote:
April 30th, 2020, 5:42 am
evolution wrote:
April 28th, 2020, 10:27 pm


But what is 'God', which was obviously invented.

Obviously the word 'God' was invented, but was what the word God referred to invented also? Or, does that exist and always has?
DUH!
Do not forget that it was you who said:

"It is absurd to suggest a human concept might have predated humans."

Considering that there has probably never been a human being who has ever even thought this, let alone suggested it out aloud, then your "DUH" might be very appropriate here.

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Sculptor1
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Re: Where Did 'God' Come From?

Post by Sculptor1 » April 30th, 2020, 7:31 pm

NukeBan wrote:
April 30th, 2020, 11:35 am
Sculptor1 wrote:
April 29th, 2020, 4:31 pm
It is absurd to suggest a human concept might have predated humans.
I don't think that's what was being suggested. Instead, the question was....
Obviously the word 'God' was invented, but was what the word God referred to invented also? Or, does that exist and always has?
My take, the fact that human beings invented the concept of God and the word "God" really tells us nothing about whether or not something God-like exists in the real world.

Humans invented the word "tree" also.
God is a concept. It cannot preexist a conceiver.
You cannot agree that it is a concept and hold that the idea precedes the conception of it.

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Sculptor1
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Re: Where Did 'God' Come From?

Post by Sculptor1 » April 30th, 2020, 7:37 pm

Marvin_Edwards wrote:
April 30th, 2020, 5:57 pm
detail wrote:
April 29th, 2020, 2:08 pm
The word god , somehow came from the word to spill or to pour some fluids in order to conjure the deity. Perhaps the word stem from the old indo-germanic word ghouto , to conjure or to spill or to pour fluids (beer, blood etc.) in honor for something could somehow explain somehow the reasoning of the word itself.
I like to imagine that God is derived "good" and that Devil is derived from "evil".
DO you accept that Good and Evil are also nothing more than human conceits?
If so, then the derivation could be directly opposite of what you suggest.

It is a coincidence that evil is inside D-evil since these words have separate etymological origins.

And although god and good are similar and both have Germanic roots I do not think they are derived. More like they have come closer together.

evolution
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Re: Where Did 'God' Come From?

Post by evolution » April 30th, 2020, 7:39 pm

NukeBan wrote:
April 30th, 2020, 10:45 am
The word "God" is a relatively recent invention, but the experience that word is attempting to describe does pre-date humans.
Considering the word 'God' sometimes references a 'thing' that created every thing, then why do we even have say out aloud that that 'thing/experience' pre-dates humans? There is no human being in this forum is there that thinks human beings have been around pre-date humans is there?
NukeBan wrote:
April 30th, 2020, 10:45 am
Wildlife has a primal connection with nature that was largely lost to us as thought emerged in human beings and we became increasingly distracted and consumed by the symbolic realm between our ears.
That 'connection' is only lost on some. That 'connection' therefore is not lost on "us". Unless you are only talking to an audience that has lost their primal connection with Nature? If you are, then obviously that audience has no idea what you are talking about here.
NukeBan wrote:
April 30th, 2020, 10:45 am
Most of the time our attention is not focused on the real world, but rather on what we think about the real world, which is something else entirely.
Why do you and others do this.

I certainly do not. In fact this means that I do the very opposite of what you and them do.
NukeBan wrote:
April 30th, 2020, 10:45 am
Consider your dog with his head out the window of your car as you drive. Your dog is totally 100% invested in the moment of the wind in his face, whereas you are typically lost in thought as you drive.
You like to assume.

What happens when "your" dog sees a cat, is "your" dog still 100% invested in the moment of the wind in his or her face?

Is "your" dog never seeing, smelling, hearing any thing at all when you drive, other than just "invested in the moment of the wind"?

Also, if this is the case, then how do you know this?
NukeBan wrote:
April 30th, 2020, 10:45 am
Your dog is in the real world, you are usually in a symbolic realm which only points to the real world, a second hand experience.
When you use the 'you' word here, who exactly are you referring to?

If when you drive you are in some other "world" than your dog is, and your dog is in the real world, then why do you do this? Why do you not just stay in the real world?
NukeBan wrote:
April 30th, 2020, 10:45 am
Your dog has the primal bond with reality, you typically do not.
Why do you speak for 'me' or 'others' and not just speak for "your" own self?

If you want to tell me or others that we typically do not have a primal bond with reality, then are you also able to tell us and them WHY we do not?
NukeBan wrote:
April 30th, 2020, 10:45 am
Religions and the god(s) characters arose in an attempt to recover the lost primal bond with reality.
But I have not lost any so called "primal bond with reality".
NukeBan wrote:
April 30th, 2020, 10:45 am
As example, consider that the Jehovah character is remarkably similar to nature in being both a gloriously beautiful giver of life, and a ruthless killer of the innocent. As we lost the primal bond with reality we attempted to reconnect through the use of relatable human-like characters such as Jehovah.
How do you know that when after you and them lost the primal bond with reality that you or them did not just make up characters out of that made up unreal "world" you and them are in when you and them are not in the real world, where your dog is?
NukeBan wrote:
April 30th, 2020, 10:45 am
A key problem for most religions is that such characters are made of thought, the very thing which causes us to lose the primal bond with nature.
But 'thought' itself does not cause you to lose the primal bond with nature. Only the false, wrong, and/or incorrect thoughts and thinking causes you and others to lose the primal bond with nature.

By the way obviously the actual 'bond with Nature' is never lost. That bond is just overridden or just lost sight of, with false, wrong, and/or incorrect thoughts and thinking.
NukeBan wrote:
April 30th, 2020, 10:45 am
The primal bond with nature is still available to us today, it just doesn't come naturally to us as it once did.
Of course it comes 'naturally', that is because it is Nature, and thus Natural in and of itself.

There is absolutely nothing that is separated nor a part from Nature, Itself. Every human being is born a part of Nature. As human beings grow/evolve they are unfortunately taught things which are false, wrong, and/or incorrect from what is actually true, right, and correct. These false and wrong teachings then become false and wrong thoughts, which then leads them from seeing what is actually true, right, and correct.
NukeBan wrote:
April 30th, 2020, 10:45 am
That's the price tag for the awesome power of thought.
This losing sight of what is Real and True, or Nature, Itself, is because of the human brain's amazing ability to gather information, and then hold that as being absolutely true, right, et cetera, when it actually is not. What is held within the brain as thoughts, then does have an awesome power of one's true self and their ability to see what the actual Truth IS.

NukeBan
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Re: Where Did 'God' Come From?

Post by NukeBan » April 30th, 2020, 7:45 pm

Sculptor1 wrote:
April 30th, 2020, 7:31 pm
God is a concept. It cannot preexist a conceiver. You cannot agree that it is a concept and hold that the idea precedes the conception of it.
You're just repeating your misunderstanding of the question you are so eager to debunk.

Here it is again, try reading it this time?
Obviously the word 'God' was invented, but was what the word God referred to invented also? Or, does that exist and always has?

evolution
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Re: Where Did 'God' Come From?

Post by evolution » April 30th, 2020, 7:53 pm

Marvin_Edwards wrote:
April 30th, 2020, 5:57 pm
detail wrote:
April 29th, 2020, 2:08 pm
The word god , somehow came from the word to spill or to pour some fluids in order to conjure the deity. Perhaps the word stem from the old indo-germanic word ghouto , to conjure or to spill or to pour fluids (beer, blood etc.) in honor for something could somehow explain somehow the reasoning of the word itself.
I like to imagine that God is derived "good" and that Devil is derived from "evil".
Sometimes the most obvious and the most simplest of things can be seen in the most easiest of ways.

Life, Itself, really is just, simple, and easy when looked at properly and correctly.

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Marvin_Edwards
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Re: Where Did 'God' Come From?

Post by Marvin_Edwards » April 30th, 2020, 8:37 pm

Sculptor1 wrote:
April 30th, 2020, 7:37 pm
Marvin_Edwards wrote:
April 30th, 2020, 5:57 pm


I like to imagine that God is derived "good" and that Devil is derived from "evil".
DO you accept that Good and Evil are also nothing more than human conceits?
If so, then the derivation could be directly opposite of what you suggest.

It is a coincidence that evil is inside D-evil since these words have separate etymological origins.

And although god and good are similar and both have Germanic roots I do not think they are derived. More like they have come closer together.
We call something "good" if it meets a real need that we have as an individual, as a society, or as a species. We call something "bad" if it unnecessarily harms us (necessary harms: trip to the dentist, vaccinations, birth, etc.). We call something "evil" if it prefers to harm us. These are pragmatic distinctions that guide moral choices and evolve our rules. (So, no, I wouldn't class them as "human conceits").

evolution
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Re: Where Did 'God' Come From?

Post by evolution » April 30th, 2020, 11:31 pm

Sculptor1 wrote:
April 30th, 2020, 7:31 pm
NukeBan wrote:
April 30th, 2020, 11:35 am


I don't think that's what was being suggested. Instead, the question was....



My take, the fact that human beings invented the concept of God and the word "God" really tells us nothing about whether or not something God-like exists in the real world.

Humans invented the word "tree" also.
God is a concept. It cannot preexist a conceiver.
Why do you persist saying these most obvious of things?

Remember 'you' were the only one who has ever said anything contrary to this.

Or, maybe you are just trying to confuse the issue here by using the word 'it' now?

As far as I can tell NO ONE else has said anything along the lines that you have been thinking of, let alone even thought or suggested anything like you have here.

When you say: "God is a concept. 'It' cannot preexist a conceiver", then what does your 'it' word refer to exactly? To the word 'God' itself, to 'God' Itself, to the 'concept' itself, or to the concept of 'what the word God is referring to'? Or, to some thing else?
Sculptor1 wrote:
April 30th, 2020, 7:31 pm
You cannot agree that it is a concept and hold that the idea precedes the conception of it.
Seriously, why would you even try and go down this path?

The word 'God' was invented by human beings. Does anyone disagree with this?

There are many different concepts/ideas in relation to that word, held by many different people. Does anyone disagree with this?

One concept/idea of that word, for example, is, whatever 'God' is 'It created every thing'. Does anyone disagree that this is not one concept for the word God?

Now, obviously concepts/ideas arrives at the exact same time that conceptions/ideas themselves do come about. Obviously conceptions/ideas do not precede themselves. Does anyone disagree with this?

Therefore, the idea itself that 'God created every thing' does not precede human beings. But whether the 'thing', being referred to as 'God', created every thing would obviously have to be some thing that already existed before human beings came to exist. The human 'idea' itself obviously could not exist before human beings came to exist, but what the idea is actually about obviously can precede human beings and their conceptions/ideas. Does anyone disagree with any of this?

Obviously any human concept itself cannot come about before there are conceptualizing human beings. Again, this goes without saying. So, why do you keep "trying to" say anyone is suggesting this?

No one that I know of even thinks what you are here, let alone are suggesting anything like that.

evolution
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Re: Where Did 'God' Come From?

Post by evolution » April 30th, 2020, 11:46 pm

Sculptor1 wrote:
April 30th, 2020, 7:31 pm
NukeBan wrote:
April 30th, 2020, 11:35 am


I don't think that's what was being suggested. Instead, the question was....



My take, the fact that human beings invented the concept of God and the word "God" really tells us nothing about whether or not something God-like exists in the real world.

Humans invented the word "tree" also.
God is a concept. It cannot preexist a conceiver.
Every conception cannot preexist a conceiver. But obviously the very thing, which is being conceived can exist prior to a conceiver. Or, do you actually believe that this is not true?

'Universe' is a concept. Can 'it' not preexist you, a conceiver?
Sculptor1 wrote:
April 30th, 2020, 7:31 pm
You cannot agree that it is a concept and hold that the idea precedes the conception of it.
You will have to define what 'it' is before I could agree or not.

For me to be able to agree or disagree with whether 'it' precedes the conception of 'it', then you will have to tell me first what 'it' is that you are conceiving of here.

'A big bang preceded the earth and the earth preceded human beings' is a concept, and some people hold that that occurrence preceded the conception of it. Some people hold the idea that earth preceded human beings, who conceived of that idea. Do you not agree with this?

evolution
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Re: Where Did 'God' Come From?

Post by evolution » May 1st, 2020, 12:13 am

Sculptor1 wrote:
April 30th, 2020, 7:37 pm
Marvin_Edwards wrote:
April 30th, 2020, 5:57 pm


I like to imagine that God is derived "good" and that Devil is derived from "evil".
DO you accept that Good and Evil are also nothing more than human conceits?
If so, then the derivation could be directly opposite of what you suggest.

It is a coincidence that evil is inside D-evil since these words have separate etymological origins.
What is the etymological origin of the word 'evil' and of the word 'devil'? And is your explanation an absolute irrefutable fact?
Sculptor1 wrote:
April 30th, 2020, 7:37 pm
And although god and good are similar and both have Germanic roots I do not think they are derived. More like they have come closer together.
Okay. And what are you basing this thought that they are not derived on exactly?

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Sculptor1
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Re: Where Did 'God' Come From?

Post by Sculptor1 » May 1st, 2020, 5:34 am

NukeBan wrote:
April 30th, 2020, 7:45 pm
Sculptor1 wrote:
April 30th, 2020, 7:31 pm
God is a concept. It cannot preexist a conceiver. You cannot agree that it is a concept and hold that the idea precedes the conception of it.
You're just repeating your misunderstanding of the question you are so eager to debunk.

Here it is again, try reading it this time?
Obviously the word 'God' was invented, but was what the word God referred to invented also? Or, does that exist and always has?
What is the matter with you?
God is an invention.

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Sculptor1
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Re: Where Did 'God' Come From?

Post by Sculptor1 » May 1st, 2020, 5:37 am

evolution wrote:
April 30th, 2020, 11:46 pm
Sculptor1 wrote:
April 30th, 2020, 7:31 pm

God is a concept. It cannot preexist a conceiver.
Every conception cannot preexist a conceiver. But obviously the very thing, which is being conceived can exist prior to a conceiver. Or, do you actually believe that this is not true?

'Universe' is a concept. Can 'it' not preexist you, a conceiver?
Sculptor1 wrote:
April 30th, 2020, 7:31 pm
You cannot agree that it is a concept and hold that the idea precedes the conception of it.
You will have to define what 'it' is before I could agree or not.

For me to be able to agree or disagree with whether 'it' precedes the conception of 'it', then you will have to tell me first what 'it' is that you are conceiving of here.

'A big bang preceded the earth and the earth preceded human beings' is a concept, and some people hold that that occurrence preceded the conception of it. Some people hold the idea that earth preceded human beings, who conceived of that idea. Do you not agree with this?
Define god anyway you want. There are enough examples- just choose one.
For god to exist it would have to be capricious, multifarious, multiplicitous, evil, good, sadistic, kind, a turtle, a man, a woman, a crocodile, lightning... You name it.

NukeBan
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Re: Where Did 'God' Come From?

Post by NukeBan » May 1st, 2020, 6:16 am

Sculptor1 wrote:
May 1st, 2020, 5:34 am
What is the matter with you?
Ah, a good question. I'm suffering from the chronic delusion that such exchanges can ever accomplish anything. Been doing it for decades. Appears to be an incurable disease. A sense of humor seems to come in handy.
God is an invention.
Such a conclusion is typically based upon the almost always unexamined assumption that the rules of human reason are binding upon all of reality, and thus upon any gods that may or may not be contained within.

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