What do you think is the nature of God? (Theists only)

Discuss philosophical questions regarding theism (and atheism), and discuss religion as it relates to philosophy. This includes any philosophical discussions that happen to be about god, gods, or a 'higher power' or the belief of them. This also generally includes philosophical topics about organized or ritualistic mysticism or about organized, common or ritualistic beliefs in the existence of supernatural phenomenon.
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Mark_Lee
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What do you think is the nature of God? (Theists only)

Post by Mark_Lee »

What do you think is the nature of God?

For starters, let's all just focus on the predominant God of the world today and before, the One in the New Testament, the Torah, and the Qu'ran. Honestly, to maintain my integrity as a devout Christian, I am inclined to exclude the Qu'ran God in this discussion but I will keep myself from doing that for the sake of inviting more people into this discussion. So Muslims, please join.

What do I mean by His "nature"? I mean His attributes, mainly. The very things that make Him Godly, so-to-speak. For example, you can say God has the ability to fly. Or God is handsome. Whatever.

Here is how I've come to understand God in my own layman understanding of Him.

He is not an "Omni-God". The idea that God is absolute perfection and has infinite power in all the ways power manifests itself doesn't make sense to me. There's a lot of problems to be had by believing that He is. MANY examples, of which I'll give one: Can God create a rock so heavy He Himself cannot lift it?

My alternative assertion is this. God is no different from the pagan gods of antiquity such as Zeus and Jupiter except that He is more forgiving and merciful than them. In His reign there is no need for sacrifices or tasks to win His favor as He already, from the beginning, made it clear to us that salvation comes through faith alone and nothing else. "Sola Fide", as protestants say it. I said He is no different from the pagan gods in that He can safely be lumped together with them under the category of being unimaginably powerful.

I sincerely believe that might and power are the true tests of sovereignty. And if the Bible is any indication of God's great capabilities, He is the worthiest Ruler of the universe.
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Re: What do you think is the nature of God? (Theists only)

Post by evolution »

I was going to reply but then I noticed that I am not allowed to.

I wonder if I started a thread about God and I only allowed non theists and non atheists to respond to it if there was anyone else besides me?
Mark_Lee wrote: May 1st, 2020, 10:54 pm What do you think is the nature of God?

For starters, let's all just focus on the predominant God of the world today and before, the One in the New Testament, the Torah, and the Qu'ran. Honestly, to maintain my integrity as a devout Christian, I am inclined to exclude the Qu'ran God in this discussion but I will keep myself from doing that for the sake of inviting more people into this discussion. So Muslims, please join.

What do I mean by His "nature"? I mean His attributes, mainly. The very things that make Him Godly, so-to-speak. For example, you can say God has the ability to fly. Or God is handsome. Whatever.

Here is how I've come to understand God in my own layman understanding of Him.

He is not an "Omni-God". The idea that God is absolute perfection and has infinite power in all the ways power manifests itself doesn't make sense to me. There's a lot of problems to be had by believing that He is. MANY examples, of which I'll give one: Can God create a rock so heavy He Himself cannot lift it?

My alternative assertion is this. God is no different from the pagan gods of antiquity such as Zeus and Jupiter except that He is more forgiving and merciful than them. In His reign there is no need for sacrifices or tasks to win His favor as He already, from the beginning, made it clear to us that salvation comes through faith alone and nothing else. "Sola Fide", as protestants say it. I said He is no different from the pagan gods in that He can safely be lumped together with them under the category of being unimaginably powerful.

I sincerely believe that might and power are the true tests of sovereignty. And if the Bible is any indication of God's great capabilities, He is the worthiest Ruler of the universe.
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Re: What do you think is the nature of God? (Theists only)

Post by h_k_s »

Mark_Lee wrote: May 1st, 2020, 10:54 pm What do you think is the nature of God?

For starters, let's all just focus on the predominant God of the world today and before, the One in the New Testament, the Torah, and the Qu'ran. Honestly, to maintain my integrity as a devout Christian, I am inclined to exclude the Qu'ran God in this discussion but I will keep myself from doing that for the sake of inviting more people into this discussion. So Muslims, please join.

What do I mean by His "nature"? I mean His attributes, mainly. The very things that make Him Godly, so-to-speak. For example, you can say God has the ability to fly. Or God is handsome. Whatever.

Here is how I've come to understand God in my own layman understanding of Him.

He is not an "Omni-God". The idea that God is absolute perfection and has infinite power in all the ways power manifests itself doesn't make sense to me. There's a lot of problems to be had by believing that He is. MANY examples, of which I'll give one: Can God create a rock so heavy He Himself cannot lift it?

My alternative assertion is this. God is no different from the pagan gods of antiquity such as Zeus and Jupiter except that He is more forgiving and merciful than them. In His reign there is no need for sacrifices or tasks to win His favor as He already, from the beginning, made it clear to us that salvation comes through faith alone and nothing else. "Sola Fide", as protestants say it. I said He is no different from the pagan gods in that He can safely be lumped together with them under the category of being unimaginably powerful.

I sincerely believe that might and power are the true tests of sovereignty. And if the Bible is any indication of God's great capabilities, He is the worthiest Ruler of the universe.
I believe it is wiser to steer clear of religion entirely when you are trying to define or describe God or Gods.

Philosophically speaking, the concept of God simply arises from Plato's "greater good", or from Aristotle's "prime mover," or from Aquinas' "first cause," etc. There is also the notion of the "artistic artificer" and so forth in philosophy which are each and all completely independent of religion.

Proceed philosophically and then you will get somewhere productively.

Religion on the other hand is only going to bog you down with the modern day dogmas and doctrines of millennia-old faith groups such as the Zoroastrians, Hindus, Jews, Buddhist, Zen, Shinto, Catholics, Islamic, Eastern Orthodox, Protestant, Modernist, and Born-Again groups.
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Re: What do you think is the nature of God? (Theists only)

Post by LuckyR »

To me "god" can be a catch-all term for individuals who are significantly more knowledgeable and powerful than humans (the inventors of the term). Since omniscience and omnipotence are impossible, they don't come into the description.
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Re: What do you think is the nature of God? (Theists only)

Post by evolution »

LuckyR wrote: May 3rd, 2020, 3:53 am To me "god" can be a catch-all term for individuals who are significantly more knowledgeable and powerful than humans (the inventors of the term). Since omniscience and omnipotence are impossible, they don't come into the description.
Why do you propose omniscience and omnipotence are impossible?

Do you have any actual evidence and/or proof for you claim here?
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Re: What do you think is the nature of God? (Theists only)

Post by Pattern-chaser »

Mark_Lee wrote: May 1st, 2020, 10:54 pm What do you think is the nature of God?

For starters, let's all just focus on the predominant God of the world today and before, the One in the New Testament, the Torah, and the Qu'ran. Honestly, to maintain my integrity as a devout Christian, I am inclined to exclude the Qu'ran God in this discussion but I will keep myself from doing that for the sake of inviting more people into this discussion. So Muslims, please join.
I'm disappointed. I came here to read because the title said "Theists only", and I am a theist. But it seems that you mean to reference only your Christian God. 😯 In the future, please be honest about what you mean? Thanks.

Btw, the Torah-God, the Bible-God and the Koran-God, to use your terminology, are the same God. They aren't known as the Abrahamic religions for nothing.

But this topic is not aimed at me after all, so I'll go away. Disappointed.
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Re: What do you think is the nature of God? (Theists only)

Post by thrasymachus »

First, forget that you are not a theist or that you are one, regardless of what the OP says, for if you take the business one step further, you find the question gives way instantly to the begged question that underlies it, and calling youself a theist dor otherwise doesn't help a bit.
I am a theist, let's say, keeping in mind that even the most doctrine driven believers, the Catholics, are theologically committed to the "ineffability" of God, and this puts theism and its opposition both on very shaky grounds. I say, "I am a theist." What next? If it were a baker or a politician, all would get it, but not here. So calling myself a theist is not an answer to a question. It is a beginning of an inquiry. Thus the post puts forth an inquiry as to the nature of God. Theists and atheists alike are invited to address this, UNLESS you are so rigid in your convictions that you have no interest in exploring. Then, who cares.
But the nature of God is not a frivolous topic. It can be made one, following LuckyR's concept of God, but are knowledge and power really what is going on with God?Can't we say that omniscience and omnipotence are contrivances of the church, of history? A kind of meta-politics whereby the affairs in our world are projected onto eternity? I think this is not near the essence of God, but it is a good straw man argument that favors dismissing God as altogether contrived. To me, knowledge has nothing to do with the essence, nor does power.
I put it to all thusly: God is all about love. Of course, love, as always, needs examination. It seems straight forward, but it certainly is not. For starters, we have to careful about how words confound and obscure. Love "arrives" to the understanding already processed and integrated into general thought. We assume we know it, but this is a mistake. We will only know it as it is through deeper inquiry. It has to be divested of its involvements, its historical and literary settings; it has to be laid out like a riddle to be de-sphinxed, for it comes to us very messy and embedded in culture.
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Re: What do you think is the nature of God? (Theists only)

Post by LuckyR »

evolution wrote: May 3rd, 2020, 4:00 am
LuckyR wrote: May 3rd, 2020, 3:53 am To me "god" can be a catch-all term for individuals who are significantly more knowledgeable and powerful than humans (the inventors of the term). Since omniscience and omnipotence are impossible, they don't come into the description.
Why do you propose omniscience and omnipotence are impossible?

Do you have any actual evidence and/or proof for you claim here?
Well, in order for omniscience to be possible, you'd have to buy into predetermination, which I don't. If you do, great (assuming you also agree with the logical implications of such a universe).

Omnipotence is meaningless/irrelevant if unrealized and I am unaware of events that demonstrate it. Please chime in with some examples, if you can.
"As usual... it depends."
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Re: What do you think is the nature of God? (Theists only)

Post by LuckyR »

thrasymachus wrote: May 3rd, 2020, 12:19 pm First, forget that you are not a theist or that you are one, regardless of what the OP says, for if you take the business one step further, you find the question gives way instantly to the begged question that underlies it, and calling youself a theist dor otherwise doesn't help a bit.
I am a theist, let's say, keeping in mind that even the most doctrine driven believers, the Catholics, are theologically committed to the "ineffability" of God, and this puts theism and its opposition both on very shaky grounds. I say, "I am a theist." What next? If it were a baker or a politician, all would get it, but not here. So calling myself a theist is not an answer to a question. It is a beginning of an inquiry. Thus the post puts forth an inquiry as to the nature of God. Theists and atheists alike are invited to address this, UNLESS you are so rigid in your convictions that you have no interest in exploring. Then, who cares.
But the nature of God is not a frivolous topic. It can be made one, following LuckyR's concept of God, but are knowledge and power really what is going on with God?Can't we say that omniscience and omnipotence are contrivances of the church, of history? A kind of meta-politics whereby the affairs in our world are projected onto eternity? I think this is not near the essence of God, but it is a good straw man argument that favors dismissing God as altogether contrived. To me, knowledge has nothing to do with the essence, nor does power.
I put it to all thusly: God is all about love. Of course, love, as always, needs examination. It seems straight forward, but it certainly is not. For starters, we have to careful about how words confound and obscure. Love "arrives" to the understanding already processed and integrated into general thought. We assume we know it, but this is a mistake. We will only know it as it is through deeper inquiry. It has to be divested of its involvements, its historical and literary settings; it has to be laid out like a riddle to be de-sphinxed, for it comes to us very messy and embedded in culture.
There are historical gods who have been written about for millenia and there metaphysical essences that are personal and can be described in many ways, including the term "god".

You mention both, but to me they are likely two different things.
"As usual... it depends."
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Re: What do you think is the nature of God? (Theists only)

Post by thrasymachus »

LuckyR
There are historical gods who have been written about for millenia and there metaphysical essences that are personal and can be described in many ways, including the term "god".

You mention both, but to me they are likely two different things.
Those historical gods are complicated things, mixed with unsound thinking, or better, cluttered thinking. The metaphysical ones are interesting. A response to the OP that recognizes the difference between the two, to be interesting at all, would have to focus on the metaphysical "essence". I wonder, what do you think this is?
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Re: What do you think is the nature of God? (Theists only)

Post by thrasymachus »

Mark_Lee
My alternative assertion is this. God is no different from the pagan gods of antiquity such as Zeus and Jupiter except that He is more forgiving and merciful than them. In His reign there is no need for sacrifices or tasks to win His favor as He already, from the beginning, made it clear to us that salvation comes through faith alone and nothing else. "Sola Fide", as protestants say it. I said He is no different from the pagan gods in that He can safely be lumped together with them under the category of being unimaginably powerful.

I sincerely believe that might and power are the true tests of sovereignty. And if the Bible is any indication of God's great capabilities, He is the worthiest Ruler of the universe.
At best, you have a "worthy" idea, it remains an abstraction and an historical fabrication. What about the reality? Is there nothing in the world that provides a material basis for God? THAT would be where the question begins, not with fables, myths and old narratives.You have to take up terms like "salvation" and "faith": What are these? asked in the same spirit of wonder that might exist in mundane events, inviting an actual process of discovery.
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Re: What do you think is the nature of God? (Theists only)

Post by evolution »

LuckyR wrote: May 4th, 2020, 3:34 am
evolution wrote: May 3rd, 2020, 4:00 am

Why do you propose omniscience and omnipotence are impossible?

Do you have any actual evidence and/or proof for you claim here?
Well, in order for omniscience to be possible, you'd have to buy into predetermination, which I don't.
Ah okay. So, you believe something is true, and anything contrary to what you believe is true and right MUST BE false and wrong.
LuckyR wrote: May 4th, 2020, 3:34 am If you do, great (assuming you also agree with the logical implications of such a universe).
I do not "buy" into anything.

Either some thing is true, or it is not. I just look at and see the Truth of things.
LuckyR wrote: May 4th, 2020, 3:34 am Omnipotence is meaningless/irrelevant if unrealized and I am unaware of events that demonstrate it. Please chime in with some examples, if you can.
Omnipotence is meaningless and irrelevant to who and what exactly?

If you are yet aware of events that demonstrate omnipotence, that is fair enough.

Also, if you have not yet realized any examples of omnipotence, then how exactly are you defining 'omnipotence'? When you define it, then I will know what examples to provide you with.
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Re: What do you think is the nature of God? (Theists only)

Post by Benj96 »

I believe the nature of God is a self- referential term for the automatic and emergent self awareness and personification of the universe. The universe has devised a spontaneous, ever increasing negatively entropic structure in nature (through emergent properties and evolution) to systematically create life and then complexify it to arrive at an animal or "state of existence" that is aware enough to contemplate it's own awareness or experience or existence. In essence I believe the nature of God is the fundamental incomprehensible quality of energy. What is it? How do you define something that is the essence of change and time itself? What forms does or could it take? What actions can it cause? What is its behaviour and how does it observe itself? Energy is possibly the most bizarre and indefinable substance in the universe because it pervades everything (omnipresence or e=mc2), has ultimate power (omnipotence) and carries all information (omniscience).
We as humans worship the qualities of energy through emulating it in our experience; power, influence and authority ( omnipotency), recognition, fame, exploration, discovery and expansion (omnipresence) and knowledge, understanding, wisdom and moral (omniscience) and possible love - as one of the most desired emotional states one can achieve in existence.
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Re: What do you think is the nature of God? (Theists only)

Post by LuckyR »

evolution wrote: May 5th, 2020, 6:04 am
LuckyR wrote: May 4th, 2020, 3:34 am

Well, in order for omniscience to be possible, you'd have to buy into predetermination, which I don't.
Ah okay. So, you believe something is true, and anything contrary to what you believe is true and right MUST BE false and wrong.
LuckyR wrote: May 4th, 2020, 3:34 am If you do, great (assuming you also agree with the logical implications of such a universe).
I do not "buy" into anything.

Either some thing is true, or it is not. I just look at and see the Truth of things.
LuckyR wrote: May 4th, 2020, 3:34 am Omnipotence is meaningless/irrelevant if unrealized and I am unaware of events that demonstrate it. Please chime in with some examples, if you can.
Omnipotence is meaningless and irrelevant to who and what exactly?

If you are yet aware of events that demonstrate omnipotence, that is fair enough.

Also, if you have not yet realized any examples of omnipotence, then how exactly are you defining 'omnipotence'? When you define it, then I will know what examples to provide you with.
If you can find a way of separating omniscience from predetermination, I am all ears.

I am a little confused. Do you consider omniscience to be True? Considering that no one has "seen" it before?

Omnipotence is irrelevant to me specifically, since it has never been observed nor demonstrated.

In the spirit of generosity, since you are a proponent of omnipotence, I'll let you define it any way you want. I am interested in broadening, not limiting your options.
"As usual... it depends."
evolution
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Re: What do you think is the nature of God? (Theists only)

Post by evolution »

LuckyR wrote: May 7th, 2020, 4:10 pm
evolution wrote: May 5th, 2020, 6:04 am

Ah okay. So, you believe something is true, and anything contrary to what you believe is true and right MUST BE false and wrong.



I do not "buy" into anything.

Either some thing is true, or it is not. I just look at and see the Truth of things.



Omnipotence is meaningless and irrelevant to who and what exactly?

If you are yet aware of events that demonstrate omnipotence, that is fair enough.

Also, if you have not yet realized any examples of omnipotence, then how exactly are you defining 'omnipotence'? When you define it, then I will know what examples to provide you with.
If you can find a way of separating omniscience from predetermination, I am all ears.
Inform me of how you define the words 'omniscience' and 'predetermination' and I will see if I can explain how they are separate.

To me they are already separate, but I must be using different definitions than you are.
LuckyR wrote: May 7th, 2020, 4:10 pmI am a little confused.
Most people are very confused with what I say.
LuckyR wrote: May 7th, 2020, 4:10 pmDo you consider omniscience to be True? Considering that no one has "seen" it before?
I will await for your definition first, before I answer this question.
LuckyR wrote: May 7th, 2020, 4:10 pmOmnipotence is irrelevant to me specifically, since it has never been observed nor demonstrated.
But I 'see' It every day in action.
LuckyR wrote: May 7th, 2020, 4:10 pmIn the spirit of generosity, since you are a proponent of omnipotence, I'll let you define it any way you want. I am interested in broadening, not limiting your options.
Okay.

By the way, I let you define absolutely any word in absolutely any way you like, at absolutely anytime you like.

I give you the freedom and the free will to make this choice. But remember your choices are limited by predetermined factors.
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