Count Lucanor:
phenomenal_graffiti wrote:
A person is a conscious body?
Have you ever seen a disembodied consciousness? Show me one.
Come to think of it, a person is a conscious body, in that the body one experiences oneself as having is composed only of one's consciousness. In the mythology that brains create consciousness, the conscious body is created by the brain. But you have
two bodies, not one: there's the body you experience that is created by your brain (for those believing the brain creates consciousness) and the body not created by your brain, which is not conscious but simply moves.
phenomenal_graffiti wrote:
What body is 'conscious'...the one created by the brain or the one not created by the brain?
The body of anyone being born. Have you ever seen anyone not being born from another person? Show me one.
You didn't answer the question. The body of anyone being born in the ridiculous belief that consciousness is created by the brain is part of a "Matrix" or artificial reality, made up of your consciousness, that is created by the brain. I asked which body is 'conscious'...as there are actually
two bodies for every person: one generated by the brain which exists in one's experience of one's own body and the second body, which is not created by one's brain that purportedly exists in the external world.
phenomenal_graffiti wrote:
In typical or stereotypical atheist mythology, reality is split between things existing only as part of a person's consciousness (which disappears when the person becomes unconscious or dies)--created or produced from a baseball glove shaped clump of neurons in a skull...and everything that does not originate from a brain within a skull.
I have never heard of that "atheist mythology", but since we have already caught you in the bad habit of putting words in atheist's mouths, I must assume that's just what you (badly) interpret from atheistics point of views. Anyway, the problem is that any good atheist, unless he is not a materialist, will not think reality is split. The split is for dualists. But the split between an objective reality and the subjective consciousness (sometimes referred as the soul) has been around since well before any atheist was ever seen around. Otherwise, an important church father like St. Augustine, unlikely an atheist, would not have thought that material bodies existed apart from his soul. Yes, it may come to a surprise, but most believers in history have been dualists, and I really hope you realize what that means: the split between a material reality and a ghostly spirit. There, your "atheist mythology"!!!!
You're kidding, right? You've never heard of the belief that the brain creates consciousness, or never heard of the belief that there are things the brain doesn't create that are said to inform the nature of sensory consciousness? Religious dualism is beside the point and doesn't factor here.
The point being, if one believes the brain creates consciousness, and if one believes that at death consciousness ceases to exist, there are
two aspects of existence: the world that is actually an artificial reality made up of one's consciousness that is generated by your brain, and the doppelganger of the visual content of that artificial reality that exists in the external world that is not created by your brain. For example, when you look at a chair, there is not just a single chair but
two chairs(according to the ridiculous belief that brains create consciousness and ridiculous belief there are consciousness-independent doppelgangers of the content of visual perception):
1. The chair created by your brain, which is just a chair made up of your first-person subjective experience
2. The doppelganger of the chair created by your brain, which is not created by your brain (and would be too large to fit within a skull).
When you see a galaxy in a book or a Hubble telescope image, you are not looking at the galaxy not created by your brain, but a galaxy created by your brain. They are two different things, as one is created by your brain and the other galaxy is not created by your brain, and is too large to fit within your skull. This is the most elementary "fact" about the nature of our existence, if one accepts the ridiculous aforementioned beliefs.
In this mythology, before there were brains there was no consciousness.
The interesting part is that you consider the material existence of brains (a body of tissue) a myth. So why are you talking about something you don't even believe is real?
Tongue-in-cheek to show that when you perceive a body, there are
two bodies: one 'conscious' and created by the brain and one not conscious, as it is not created by the brain and according to the myth that consciousness is created by the brain, the second body
is not composed of consciousness unlike the one created by the brain.
phenomenal_graffiti wrote:
Or did consciousness exist before atoms accidentally and unknowingly created brains? (as atoms, in the absence of consciousness did not know they existed, much less know they created brains).
What's the point, I mean, you have made clear you don't believe in those doppelganger atoms, do you?
Yes, but it doesn't matter what
I don't believe. What matter is that
you believe it, so the concept is necessary to show how a conscious body is actually an "illusion", so to speak, created by the brain that hides an unconscious body, which all external bodies are, as, according to the belief that consciousness in order to exist requires brains to generate it, not conscious or made up of consciousness as external bodies are not created by brains.
phenomenal_graffiti wrote:
The point being, unless you're stating consciousness can exist without the brain, the only 'conscious bodies' are the percepts that "airbag deploy" from the brain, as opposed to bodies that are distal objects ("percepts" and "distal objects" terms used in description of the process of perception) or the bodies not created by the brain that purportedly exist outside the skull in the external world.
Nope. You need a living person with a body that has a brain to have consciousness. A dead body has a dead brain and that makes a dead person. A dead person is not conscious. It's not very complicated.
1. A living person is a first-person subjective experience that has first-person mental, emotional and sensory experiences.
2. How does the brain, a baseball glove shaped mass of electrified meat, produce first-person subjective experience?
Where isthe first-person subjective experience before a particular neural circuit fires in a way that just happens to have the fictional ability to create a particular first-person subjective experience like, say, the memory of blowing out a candle at one's eleventh birthday party?
3. Did consciousness exist before atoms formed brains? Did consciousness exist before there were brains? Can consciousness exist without a brain? If not, my point above stands: brains must use the magic of creation ex nihilo to create consciousness because, well, consciousness does not exist unless and until the brain creates the next moment of conscious experience, the next experience after that, and so on. So all the worrying about whether an atheist states or uses ex nihilo magic in regard to the brain is beside the point and doesn't need mention: if one believes in the first first questions in statement #3...one implies
the brain has the power to cause something that does not exist to come into existence.
We are currently living within the mind of Jesus Christ as he is currently being crucified. One may think there is no God, or if one believes in God, one thinks one lives outside the mind of Christ in a post-crucifixion present.
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