Natural evil VS the innocent - Genetic defect in child

Discuss philosophical questions regarding theism (and atheism), and discuss religion as it relates to philosophy. This includes any philosophical discussions that happen to be about god, gods, or a 'higher power' or the belief of them. This also generally includes philosophical topics about organized or ritualistic mysticism or about organized, common or ritualistic beliefs in the existence of supernatural phenomenon.
Post Reply
User avatar
Whitedragon
Posts: 948
Joined: November 14th, 2012, 12:12 pm

Natural evil VS the innocent - Genetic defect in child

Post by Whitedragon » August 1st, 2020, 5:54 am

I have a friend whose grandchild has a genetic defect, this touches on the theodicy question, although she has a specific inquiry I have been working on. The boy, who is about six, is because of this defect unable to speak. He also had his colon removed at an early age, and it was replaced with a synthetic one, first externally, then internally and now external again. He suffers much pain because of this and her question to me is, if he has no notion of good and evil, why should he suffer it? :?:

I realize that this question opens up debate for scientific answers too, which is why I’m done with this thread, I’ll post a similar topic in the science thread, from a different perspective. I will also later create a space where contributors in the forum can discuss their personal experiences in the philosopher’s lounge.
We are a frozen spirit; our thoughts a cloud of droplets; different oceans and ages brood inside – where spirit sublimates. To some our words, an acid rain, to some it is too pure, to some infectious, to some a cure.

evolution
Posts: 426
Joined: April 19th, 2020, 6:20 am

Re: Natural evil VS the innocent - Genetic defect in child

Post by evolution » August 1st, 2020, 9:58 pm

Whitedragon wrote:
August 1st, 2020, 5:54 am
I have a friend whose grandchild has a genetic defect, this touches on the theodicy question, although she has a specific inquiry I have been working on. The boy, who is about six, is because of this defect unable to speak. He also had his colon removed at an early age, and it was replaced with a synthetic one, first externally, then internally and now external again. He suffers much pain because of this and her question to me is, if he has no notion of good and evil, why should he suffer it? :?:
Why do you mean by, why 'should' he 'suffer' 'it'?

What is the 'it', exactly?
How is he 'suffering', exactly?
What is the 'should' in relation to, exactly?

And, if some one is 'suffering' from the pain of the physical organs, then why they should suffer in this way is because the enduring pain felt from the nerve endings within the body 'just hurts'.

But I will await your clarifying answers before I attempt to answer your specific question.
Whitedragon wrote:
August 1st, 2020, 5:54 am
I realize that this question opens up debate for scientific answers too, which is why I’m done with this thread, I’ll post a similar topic in the science thread, from a different perspective. I will also later create a space where contributors in the forum can discuss their personal experiences in the philosopher’s lounge.

User avatar
Whitedragon
Posts: 948
Joined: November 14th, 2012, 12:12 pm

Re: Natural evil VS the innocent - Genetic defect in child

Post by Whitedragon » Yesterday, 2:56 am

Hi, I mean, if he has no good or evil notions, why should he suffer the evil that causes pain and suffering.
We are a frozen spirit; our thoughts a cloud of droplets; different oceans and ages brood inside – where spirit sublimates. To some our words, an acid rain, to some it is too pure, to some infectious, to some a cure.

User avatar
Whitedragon
Posts: 948
Joined: November 14th, 2012, 12:12 pm

Re: Natural evil VS the innocent - Genetic defect in child

Post by Whitedragon » Yesterday, 3:08 am

I also have already explored the other part of your answer about pain receptors, and I although I came to the same conclusion in my private essay, it's a scientific answer and not one that brings consoling to the questioner. I will start a scientific blog later on the question. Thanks
We are a frozen spirit; our thoughts a cloud of droplets; different oceans and ages brood inside – where spirit sublimates. To some our words, an acid rain, to some it is too pure, to some infectious, to some a cure.

User avatar
Papus79
Posts: 853
Joined: February 19th, 2017, 6:59 pm

Re: Natural evil VS the innocent - Genetic defect in child

Post by Papus79 » Yesterday, 8:28 am

This is an issue that's close to me because I grew up, on one hand, with PDD-NOS (autistic spectrum condition) and on the other - even without that - I go to have outlier personality, outlier interests, and I got to find out that the great game-theorhetical ape god Conformity rules the world with YHVH-like wrath and fury where practical conformity, like making sense, working well with others, abiding by laws, isn't even close to enough - shibboleth social conformity is demanded and any variance, at all, from local norms without an excuse is a problem.

I think for me getting my cosmology or theory of what we're actually in, what's happening, etc., has been really important - because there are a lot of theories and models that will drive you crazy, especially theistic ones, if your life has you backed against a wall or stuck inexorably in a particularly challenging place with only death as a respite.

The good news - consciousness is probably older than this universe, of incalculable value, and that may provide some deep/intuitive anchors for secular humanism to have some kind of weight and heft against nature red in tooth and nail, psychopathic arms races, and all of those beautiful things I world has from Darwinian game theory and natural selection.

The bad news - we're clearly not in a theistic universe, and to some sense the even more discouraging news - we're not in a reductive materialist one either. It seems like we're dealing with a massive generator function, call it a hub for all local consciousness (local could be this universe, many, or all, but from this vantage point it's unknowable), it seems to be generating all of this from the substance of its own mind stuff at least if we're going to look at this from the subjective side, from the objective side - ie. from the outside of that system and whether that system is based in an ultimate 'physical' reality we'll probably never know.

Adrian Nielson recently had a short video lecture on his Waking Cosmos channel called ' Artificial Intelligence and Consciousness' where be poured over the philosophy of Andrés Gómez Emilsson and the details of what it could mean for AI, a mind that's not biologically bounded which could add on to itself and perhaps diverge infinitely, would look like. The output of that sounded frighteningly similar to what people describe in NDE's - ie. contact with a form of consciousness that's both vast and non-human. That doesn't directly suggest that we're somehow running around on an ancestor simulation, considering just how many universes could spring into being with an infinite scope of possibility something like that could happen by all kinds of means, and then - much like the Isaac Asimov memorial panel Neil DeGrasse Tyson posted where the question was asked 'how likely is that we're living in a simulation?' you also have the question 'What are the odds that we're living in a natural or artifically-created Artilect?' - the scope of human experience seems to suggest that it's pretty high.

This is where the story gets a bit dark though - something else is in control and, unlike YHVH, good luck praying to it. One of the colder aspects of this is when a few NDE'ers, particularly thinking of a guy who I believe was in the airforce, had a near-miss with another plain while landing, and had a mystical experience several nights later, while he was in that near collision state and in extreme fight-or-flight, watching everything happen in slow motion, the usual sense he had of the way the world operates folded back somewhat and what he saw then was perfect mathematics and that 'nothing was out of place' and that 'everything is exactly as it's supposed to be'. I spent quite a while really hoping that his experience of that idea was just adrenaline or brain chemical based hallucination, if it is a hallucination it's a persistent one that a lot of people have experienced (wonder what Oliver Sacks would say on this one). I've had my own experience of being out with friends, seeing a very socially chaotic environment, struggling to make sense of it when I went home, something within me gave way and I saw not only perfect memory of the entire night but every angular trajectory saved and when I zoomed out it seemed like all of my observations were stored on something that looked like a mandala.



To get past all of that philosophy and get back to the personal level - ie. a child whose six, can't speak, has an artificial colon, and has to make sense of what to do with their life - at ground level they have their own consciousness, that's only something death can take away or transmute, and while their here the one thing they have to work with as a goal is working with their own mind, their own learning, figuring out what they can get good at, and pursuing it. All other roads, especially victimhood, seem to lead to a bottomless well of misery. Unfortunately there's no complaint box, there's no number to call, and even the supposed 'reset' button of checking out early is doubtful.

Another piece of advice I'd give to anyone whose got a life-long struggle that they're not getting away from - live in your integrity as best you can. It's the only way you can at least have yourself as a friend, your internal/subjective environment as a stable one, and it's your best hope of other people not gas-lighting, using, and abusing you by pulling you into their own machinations.
People aren't fundamentally good or fundamentally bad, we're fundamentally trying to survive. It's the environment and culture which tells us what that's going to be.

User avatar
Whitedragon
Posts: 948
Joined: November 14th, 2012, 12:12 pm

Re: Natural evil VS the innocent - Genetic defect in child

Post by Whitedragon » Yesterday, 9:08 am

Thank you,
Although, I may have neglected to say, it's not just the fact that he can't speak, it's also his cognitive capabilities, he does not have the ability to fathom the notion of character building. My concern is more about what to say to the family. Since they're Christian, I don't think telling them there's no God is going to help the situation.

The best I have thought of saying so far is that maybe one interacts with God before coming into the world, like a test you don't understand. Perhaps his reward is to be shielded from the concept of good and evil. I also asked the grandma what she would give to be free of thought corruption. This kind of helped her.

I also explained through a scenario of a physical gate the following. If you're outside a house, blocked by a high gate and walls and inside the yard is one of your loved ones in mortal danger, which you can't help in the end, it's easier to accept than an illness and having to deal with natural evil. If you can touch and feel the cause that brings you hurt, like this gate, it's less likely to cause a faith crises. The lesson here is to realise that religious and philosophical explanations are just as real as this gate. Unfortunately it's hard to understand and face the abstract, which is why I speak of something physical, like this gate, claiming the spiritual realities are far darker and tragic, which cause, in this case, natural evil. This also seemed to have an impact on my friend.

However my explanations still have a few holes in them, which she and I both realise. My hope is to have a good discussion here with the contributors for more fresh ideas.
We are a frozen spirit; our thoughts a cloud of droplets; different oceans and ages brood inside – where spirit sublimates. To some our words, an acid rain, to some it is too pure, to some infectious, to some a cure.

Post Reply