Natural evil VS the innocent - Genetic defect in child

[Whitedragon]

Whitedragon I would help if I could.

But I do not believe in God and have little to offer in the way of religious, spiritual comfort or advice.

There are others that may be more useful, e.g.

https://groundwork.reframemedia.com/blo ... -suffering

https://www.christianityexplored.org/Ar ... hy_is.aspx

It is all I know to offer you, though I suspect it is an option you have already explored.

Thank you, my dear friend,
It's because of atheists like you I often find more humanity in atheists than many Christian's.

Thank you for your enlightened gesture,
You've made yourself a new friend

I'll take a look at your links soon

[evolution]

To those that have flamed up,
I don't think it's warranted for the little assertiveness from my side, considering how cold you are to the topic and how unhelpful some of the posts are. I shall no longer respond to flaming and callous remarks or writing style.

A perception of "flaming and callous remarks" may NOT actually be that at all.

No offence,
But I don't see how talking about pain receptors in a theistic thread is helpful, I can do that too.

If you did want to SEE how talking about pain receptors in this thread IS HELPFUL, then you could LEARN and UNDERSTAND how it IS HELPFUL.

I also don't see how empty posturing is helpful, no discussion takes place in such conversations.

So called, "empty posturing" is also just another interpretation, which could well be completely WRONG.

I will start reporting this behaviour, as I was previously an admin.

WHY 'threaten'?

WHY NOT just report, instead?

I tested those that have a cold and sarcastic feel in this thread by merely being a bit assertive, they responded in force with what I expected, thank you for revealing your intentions and character to me, I shall ignore you until all of this changes.

I am still wondering who you are referring to EXACTLY.

I don't find writing things like *ss about a child uplifting or civilised, there are proper names for these things, thank you.

I do NOT know you are saying NOR meaning here.

But what appears to be happening here now is, you are just looking for the "answer", which is WANTED to be HEARD.

This is common tendency with adult human beings. They tend to only WANT to SEE what they WANT TO SEE and tend only WANT to HEAR what they WANT TO HEAR, which, by the way, commonly has NO actual bearing on what thee actual Truth IS.

[evolution]

Just a thought, would it be heresy to say that Jesus suffered for us in a major way, while apparently some people, like that child, suffer for us in a smaller way?

Thank you, Atla,
The first promising post on the thread so far,
This is the kind of argument I think belongs in a theistic thread,

HOW is a 'suggestion' supposedly an 'argument'?

And, HOW is this child supposedly 'suffering'?

Yes, while I was pondering the question more in bed last night, I came up with the potential for a similar story that can be written for the questioner, though it's different.

I think the child can be considered a hero and is in my opinion,

How could this child logically be considered a 'hero'?

How is being born not able to speak as you do nor able to poo as you do make that one a, so called, "hero"?

since he teaches things to us about life and ourselves.

Absolutely EVERY child teaches 'you', adults, about Life and "yourselves". And the younger the child is the MORE they are teaching 'you'. Unfortunately, though, ALL of 'you' MISS these teachings. This is because you have all been taught, and thus all believe, that it is "adults who know best".

If you ALL began to Truly LISTEN to children, and especially the very young ones, then you will REALLY learn what Life, and living, is REALLY ABOUT.

If I've successfully written my story, I'll think about posting it here, with the emphasis on if, I don't know if it will be successful.

I agree with your proposal and very much appreciate it. After thinking a lot about the theodicy question I came to the conclusion that, "perhaps thought isn't the answer," but rather love and compassion, they speak a language that go beyond reason and logic.

But, what is 'love' and how do you express and SHOW 'love and compassion'? This will be your next question that you will have to ask "others" to answer for you, correct?

Please stay with us and expand more on this idea,
Kind regards,
WhiteDragon

By the way, EVERY child 'suffers', in some way, for 'you', adult human beings.

When 'you' learn how to really LOOK and truly HEAR, then you will SEE, and UNDERSTAND how ALL children have HAD TO 'suffer' because of ALL of adults WRONG DOING.

[Whitedragon]

Hi, Evolution,

I'm going to try to remain on the topic by not addressing the things that don't relate to it.

Okay, there are contributors here that refuse to take a theistic approach, I wish they would, since I promised a science thread after this one.

It's not that I don't want to see or entertain truths, but certainly there are many truths and ways to approach this topic. Some of them simply don't belong in a religious thread, unless one has the skills of Professor McGrath. I too have given this quite a bit of scientific thought, so nothing so far via science that has been mentioned here is new to me, not being horrible or anything.

I DO want specific answers, religious ones, otherwise I would have opened my initial post in the science section. Do I have to beg here, guys.

I don't report bad or crude post as a rule, because it's not my style. I can't say I've ever in all these years reported a poster, but some of the things that are being said here, (not only to me), is becoming vexing.

Yes, I agree we can learn something from all children, that's logical, but in his case he evokes deep thought about life. He makes us look at ourselves and question ourselves, his case challenges classical religious considerations and our own prized minds.

I can't explain why I say he is a hero, it just feels like that, perhaps my emotions on that are beyond logic, but this is not a question for logic, logic has been failing at this for decades ... in fact I would make a wager that logic is the very problem.

So, apparently some posters are not going to make a religious contribution, I will then work with you instead of against you. Just bear in mind that I won't be able to use the arguments and neither will you, due to the simple reason of how they impact psychologically and emotionally on people who actually have such children etc.

[Whitedragon]

Hi, all,
I would like to share my draft of the story I said I would write. I will later repost it in the philosopher's lounge where I will invite others to share their stories that may have a loved one that is suffering. I invite all to take a look at the draft for discussion.

Sunday, August 09, 2020

There was a mother whose son was born deaf, he also had constant wounds forming on his body that healed and reappeared in different places. When the son was elven the mother could no longer bear it and one day she decided to ascend the Mount of Olives. She said to herself, since this is the mountain of God, I will find him there and pose my heart ache before him. She tied the child to her body and started walking. The child cried, for he had a lot of pain, he wanted to run and play, because this was all that took his mind off the pain. Aside from the wounds on his body and being deaf, he was fit and had strong legs. His mother was a widow, since his father died some years ago and he often helped her with heavy tasks, because he was strong, yet when the pain came, he was crippled and couldn’t help her until the pain subsided.

She started ascending the mountain and half way up she encountered an old man, sickly. The man was lame and weak, his clothes were in rags. He held in his hand a stone and could barely keep it upright as he leaned with his elbow on the ground to support his arm. When he saw the mother, he stretched out his other hand, “help me, I’m thirsty, please dip my cup in that pool over there.” The mother stopped briefly and said, “I’m on my way to find God to heal my son, if I start helping you with things now, I’ll never make it before dusk and it will be dark.” So she left the old man there, holding the stone as he started gazing into it intensely again.

At last the woman reached the summit. She searched the whole mountain. It took her hours, but at last she came to the conclusion God is not there. Perhaps there is no God ? She started weeping, all her hopes were gone now and her son was getting much more restless. As she was descending the mountain she came across the old man again, still staring intensely into his stone… he must be mad, she thought. As he saw her he begged her again for water and as she had nothing more to gain by searching for God she granted his request, dipped the cup and gave him some water. He was extremely thirsty and drank it down quickly, so she kept giving him water from the pool until his thirst was quenched.

As they started to have a conversation she said to the man that she was deeply grieved, because she didn’t find God. “I wanted to receive healing for my son so badly, but having searched for hours, I could not find God.” The lame man put down his stone and moved himself about with his arms to make himself comfortable. “I have been tending the world diligently after the fall, but ever since the fall I have suffered loss after loss and I too lost a son.” “You see when Adam and Eve fell from paradise their eyes were shielded from the battle that took place in Heaven that day. Satan came down on me with all his might, because he had stolen my authority and power I’ve given to mankind – he has been using that power to harm my children since that day.” The damage to earth and Heaven was so severe that I had to compromise with Satan to relinquish my most valuable and holy possession, my Son.” “When he left to save people from their sins, his absents and the blemishing man and fiend brought down on him impoverished Heaven.” He touches the stone, “I look into this stone every day, always maintaining and subsisting the world as best I can, but I have been left lame after all my sacrifices and the wars that have been brought down on Heaven by the enemy.”

“Oh, all the things you’ve heard about me WERE true. I once was omnipotent, omniscient, omnipresent and so on, but all my sacrifices have cost me and my kingdom a lot. I emptied all my spiritual treasures and gave it to my children. This is why after the fall in paradise you don’t sit in darkness without a sun or stars, heat or proper food.” It was never written in the Bible what damage the fall in Eden did, all of this darkness came down on me, I spared humanity … from most of it.” “But there was one thing Satan never could take from me and that is my Omni Benevolence. I’m still that good God and I want to help, but ever since they tarnished my Son who has been kept pure before beginnings and ends, Heaven has been recovering.”

The mother looked into God’s stone and saw all the brokenness and suffering in the world. “Lord, is there nothing I can do ……. please, take my child’s strong legs for yourself, take anything you need from me and him. I have always loved you and I will sacrifice any thing for my God, since you’ve sacrificed everything for us.” So the child became limp in her arms. After a few moments God rose from the place he had been sitting. The women left and went home. Her child was now deaf, full of sores and lame. However after three days, one morning when the woman rose she woke to a different world. It was the promised New World the scriptures have been talking about for thousands of years. Jesus had finally come and the old world was gone. She looked at herself and her son, they were renewed, they saw God and he was sitting on his throne in great splendour and glory.

She never found out how her son’s legs helped God, or what God did. Because you see in life, sometimes the smallest thing we do for God can make a huge difference in his kingdom. The woman easily passed the old man when she didn’t know he was God, there was only compassion and concern for herself. This is why the Bible teaches us that when we help our neighbours we’ve done that deed to the Lord God himself. There are also other things we can do for God. I well know that this story does not conform to the parameters of classical religion, however we are the arms and feet of God. It’s clearly written in the gospels that Jesus will not come until the good messages has been preached all across the world. This is humanity’s job. Indeed, as the Lord couldn’t bring about the new world in this story so the new world cannot come before the gospel has been preached and more people come to follow Christ. So, if the reader can excuse the deviations, but rather look at them as the godly work the Lord has appointed us in comparison, I think we’ll find that we can indeed “cripple” God by actions and even inaction. The irony of the mother in this story that seeks healing, but in the end sacrifices from her son for God is striking. It’s so easy to accept miracles from God for our greatest woes, but how many, like this mother, would make such a sacrifice to God ?

There is a certain holy respect, therefore, that we feel for this mother, a twist that one would never expect in a story of a woman that ascends beyond normal human generosity and duty, giving her the same benevolence as God when he sacrificed Jesus. I don’t think it’s unfair to say that many times the only way we can be like God, is through such love as the mother has displayed in this story. Jesus often calls in the gospels on people to be, “holy, for I am holy.” The path to a divine spirit is therefore certainly not to live a nominal life, but an extraordinary one. I’m solemnly convinced by preaching The Good News, and doing God’s work, we pave the way for many miracles as we take part in drawing God’s kingdom nearer and making way for the second coming. For indeed, there is a lot of damage to this world and my theological feelings would drive me to say, there is also damage to Heaven and God’s kingdom. That part of the story feels true to me when I read BEYOND Genesis and see the brokenness of the world ; I ask myself … how much have God sacrificed to save us from more severe consequences after the paradise fall. To me this story tells us, that there is more power in our hands than we think, and with the world in such a state as it is today with people living further away from God, the second coming must be hampered, since the gospel is not preached and people become more cold. We are not cold, we must be a lamp for God in this dark world, a lamp and a testimony.

[Sculptor1]

Hi, all,
I would like to share my draft of the story I said I would write. I will later repost it in the philosopher's lounge

Find a religious Forum.
THIS IS PHILOSOPHY.

[Papus79]

Whitedragon - I hope you're getting to see the kind of social environment you're in 20/20 by this point. The internet seems to quite readily prove the sort of thing that Donald Hoffman was saying about Darwinian evolution and natural selection - ie. fitness always beats truth, and not far behind that it roundly tramples any form of sincere curiosity and exploration.

[Atla]

Just a thought, would it be heresy to say that Jesus suffered for us in a major way, while apparently some people, like that child, suffer for us in a smaller way?

Thank you, Atla,
The first promising post on the thread so far,
This is the kind of argument I think belongs in a theistic thread,

Yes, while I was pondering the question more in bed last night, I came up with the potential for a similar story that can be written for the questioner, though it's different.

I think the child can be considered a hero and is in my opinion, since he teaches things to us about life and ourselves. If I've successfully written my story, I'll think about posting it here, with the emphasis on if, I don't know if it will be successful.

I agree with your proposal and very much appreciate it. After thinking a lot about the theodicy question I came to the conclusion that, "perhaps thought isn't the answer," but rather love and compassion, they speak a language that go beyond reason and logic.

Please stay with us and expand more on this idea,
Kind regards,
WhiteDragon

I guess by that I didn't mean that the child suffers for the sins of others, but maybe this is could also be the case to a lesser extent.
I rather meant that he suffers so that many others don't have to (as much), thus helping humanity as a whole. That maybe God has given him this burden so he can aid humanity. Yes the child can be seen as a hero, and it's all about love, compassion, and less overall suffering.

[Atla]

I guess by that I didn't mean that the child suffers for the sins of others, but maybe this is could also be the case to a lesser extent.
I rather meant that he suffers so that many others don't have to (as much), thus helping humanity as a whole. That maybe God has given him this burden so he can aid humanity. Yes the child can be seen as a hero, and it's all about love, compassion, and less overall suffering.

It's not for other individuals specifically, but for humanity as a whole so it can reach whatever destiny it has to reach.

[Whitedragon]

Hi, all,
I would like to share my draft of the story I said I would write. I will later repost it in the philosopher's lounge

Find a religious Forum.
THIS IS PHILOSOPHY.

I'm sorry you feel that way, if there is no room in philosophy for narrative, it is sad. I think there is a good measure of religious philosophy in the story, I hoped we could have had a conversation about it.

[Whitedragon]

Whitedragon - I hope you're getting to see the kind of social environment you're in 20/20 by this point. The internet seems to quite readily prove the sort of thing that Donald Hoffman was saying about Darwinian evolution and natural selection - ie. fitness always beats truth, and not far behind that it roundly tramples any form of sincere curiosity and exploration.

Alright, if there is no room here for my contributions and if my requirements can't be met, I'll start talking and reasoning the way the others do, it's not like I'm incapable of doing so, i simply don't know how to break free of theistic confinements when I have to answer the questions of Christian's. I already broke from classical religion in the story to bring more understanding. I have on this forum written from atheistic points of view using the arguments in this thread by the other posters, then it was fine, because I wasn't restricted by a Christian's needs.

[Whitedragon]

Thank you, Atla,
The first promising post on the thread so far,
This is the kind of argument I think belongs in a theistic thread,

Yes, while I was pondering the question more in bed last night, I came up with the potential for a similar story that can be written for the questioner, though it's different.

I think the child can be considered a hero and is in my opinion, since he teaches things to us about life and ourselves. If I've successfully written my story, I'll think about posting it here, with the emphasis on if, I don't know if it will be successful.

I agree with your proposal and very much appreciate it. After thinking a lot about the theodicy question I came to the conclusion that, "perhaps thought isn't the answer," but rather love and compassion, they speak a language that go beyond reason and logic.

Please stay with us and expand more on this idea,
Kind regards,
WhiteDragon

I guess by that I didn't mean that the child suffers for the sins of others, but maybe this is could also be the case to a lesser extent.
I rather meant that he suffers so that many others don't have to (as much), thus helping humanity as a whole. That maybe God has given him this burden so he can aid humanity. Yes the child can be seen as a hero, and it's all about love, compassion, and less overall suffering.

It certainly is a possibility, in fact there may be a few examples in the Bible you're talking about, but they are too vague for me to recall, I'll ponder on it a bit and see if I can find anything.

Just a question, how do you think one can present this notion to the parents, (should we find Biblical convermation). Do you think it's a workable way of consoling them?

Thanks

[evolution]

Hi, Evolution,

I'm going to try to remain on the topic by not addressing the things that don't relate to it.

Okay, there are contributors here that refuse to take a theistic approach, I wish they would, since I promised a science thread after this one.

It's not that I don't want to see or entertain truths, but certainly there are many truths and ways to approach this topic. Some of them simply don't belong in a religious thread, unless one has the skills of Professor McGrath. I too have given this quite a bit of scientific thought, so nothing so far via science that has been mentioned here is new to me, not being horrible or anything.

I DO want specific answers, religious ones, otherwise I would have opened my initial post in the science section. Do I have to beg here, guys.

I don't report bad or crude post as a rule, because it's not my style. I can't say I've ever in all these years reported a poster, but some of the things that are being said here, (not only to me), is becoming vexing.

Yes, I agree we can learn something from all children, that's logical, but in his case he evokes deep thought about life. He makes us look at ourselves and question ourselves, his case challenges classical religious considerations and our own prized minds.

I can't explain why I say he is a hero, it just feels like that, perhaps my emotions on that are beyond logic, but this is not a question for logic, logic has been failing at this for decades ... in fact I would make a wager that logic is the very problem.

So, apparently some posters are not going to make a religious contribution, I will then work with you instead of against you. Just bear in mind that I won't be able to use the arguments and neither will you, due to the simple reason of how they impact psychologically and emotionally on people who actually have such children etc.

But you will NEVER KNOW what impact my, so called, "arguments" will have on people if you NEVER try those "arguments", on them.

[Papus79]

Alright, if there is no room here for my contributions and if my requirements can't be met, I'll start talking and reasoning the way the others do, it's not like I'm incapable of doing so, i simply don't know how to break free of theistic confinements when I have to answer the questions of Christian's. I already broke from classical religion in the story to bring more understanding. I have on this forum written from atheistic points of view using the arguments in this thread by the other posters, then it was fine, because I wasn't restricted by a Christian's needs.

I really meant it the other way around. Anything that starts on a high note with the OP generally goes downhill proportionally to the number of participants. If you feel like you're chaining two intelligent thoughts together you have to be careful as to whether they're thoughts you'd want to share on an open forum - particularly if they're likely to get buried in extremely low-quality criticism. What the right answer is to that I have no clue, just that by this point I've set my bar low enough for other people that I'd be amazed if they could dig deep enough to still find it and trip over it.

For the religious and mystical texts, I find Mansur Al Hallaj's to be some of the most intense and moving. I've read John of the Cross and Theresa of Avila, it's interesting stuff and I'd love to map it onto the broader structure of life but I'm also getting what so many authors used to say about not bringing the sacred in contact with the profane and I don't even necessarily mean the sacred in the religious context or the profane in regard to specific individuals, it's something more like Darwinian game theory being strictly about power and there's very little of value that survives contact with that without getting wrapped in ape feces.

[Whitedragon]

Hi, Evolution,
I had a biology teacher for whom I had much respect. She was Christian, but had logical arguments, for lack of a better word, just like you. Her reasoning, to use a better word, actually made a huge impact to questions, almost like this. I certainly will never discount or dismiss anyone's contributions here.

Please understand,
I've had similar reasonings as some have here. I didn't just start on this topic on a whim, I've been thinking more than a month about it, using logic and other approaches. I presented scientific and logical arguments to the grandmother as a side note, yes they were helpful, but it didn't completely solve it.

Who is to say that theistic arguments are not also logic, just in a different format?

I will certainly use your and others' input. I you like, and if you'll be so kind, please summarise your views cryptically, it will help me. You can either post them here or you can private message me. The reason I ask you to summarise them, is because in a thread I struggle with regular conversational layout, so it's made difficult for me to summarise it myself and keep track.

I would appreciate a short layout of your thoughts, therefore, wherein I can easily spot the highlights.

I definitely want to work with everyone. There is certainly room for a clinical approach, it can even help understand the root of the theistic problem. The reason, I believe, the theodicy question has never been answered, is because no one truly understands it. A clinical approach can cut away and identify the core of the problem.

Aside from the fact that it's heavily convoluted and riddled with restrictions, I don't believe this is what prevents anyone from answering the question.

I'm looking forward to work with you on the problem, if a sole clinical answer can indeed achieve the goal, it may indeed be better, otherwise we keep fuelling others' confusion. I just hope my input will also be heard and worked with the same courtesy.