Natural evil VS the innocent - Genetic defect in child

Discuss philosophical questions regarding theism (and atheism), and discuss religion as it relates to philosophy. This includes any philosophical discussions that happen to be about god, gods, or a 'higher power' or the belief of them. This also generally includes philosophical topics about organized or ritualistic mysticism or about organized, common or ritualistic beliefs in the existence of supernatural phenomenon.
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evolution
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Re: Natural evil VS the innocent - Genetic defect in child

Post by evolution »

Whitedragon wrote: August 15th, 2020, 8:02 am Hi, Evolution,
Let's deal with your pain receptor statement first:

Shouldn't the answer then be, why didn't God provide us with the ability to switch off pain if we can't do anything about the injury?
This is answered somewhat in my previous post, to this one.

Also, you appear to get your questions and answers mixed up sometimes. What you wrote here is a question, and not an answer.

Now, to answer your question here, when you say "us" do you mean human beings?

If yes, then why God did not provide human beings with the ability to switch off pain, and not provide this ability to other animals, is because human beings are no more special than other animals are.

Pain is a necessary thing, for sentient beings, so that they learn what 'not to do', in order to avoid injury.

Also, when is there an injury, which a human being can not do anything about?

Obviously other animals do not have the abilities of human beings to do things in regards to pain, from injuries, therefore a better question might be; Why did God not provide other animals with the ability to switch off pain, if they can not do anything about their injuries?

The answer to this actually takes us back to my answer to your question, which is; Pain is a necessary thing for ALL animals. Pain is 'needed' in order for them to be able to learn what to avoid doing. If it was not for pain, then animals could just keep doing what actually damages and injures the body.
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Re: Natural evil VS the innocent - Genetic defect in child

Post by Whitedragon »

evolution wrote: August 15th, 2020, 8:14 am
Whitedragon wrote: August 15th, 2020, 8:02 am Hi, Evolution,
Let's deal with your pain receptor statement first:

Shouldn't the answer then be, why didn't God provide us with the ability to switch off pain if we can't do anything about the injury?
This is answered somewhat in my previous post, to this one.

Also, you appear to get your questions and answers mixed up sometimes. What you wrote here is a question, and not an answer.

Now, to answer your question here, when you say "us" do you mean human beings?

If yes, then why God did not provide human beings with the ability to switch off pain, and not provide this ability to other animals, is because human beings are no more special than other animals are.

Pain is a necessary thing, for sentient beings, so that they learn what 'not to do', in order to avoid injury.

Also, when is there an injury, which a human being can not do anything about?

Obviously other animals do not have the abilities of human beings to do things in regards to pain, from injuries, therefore a better question might be; Why did God not provide other animals with the ability to switch off pain, if they can not do anything about their injuries?

The answer to this actually takes us back to my answer to your question, which is; Pain is a necessary thing for ALL animals. Pain is 'needed' in order for them to be able to learn what to avoid doing. If it was not for pain, then animals could just keep doing what actually damages and injures the body.
What must the child stop doing not to have pain? There isn't even a practical scientific lesson in this.

Also, how do we know what kind of pain do animals experience, don't some animals suppress pain better than human animals?

So it seems inaccurate to say, "pain teaches us lessons," because sometimes there are no lessons to be learned from pain to avoid it next time, as the pain is constant and no lesson or logic can be derived from it. In this case we have to endure pain in vain with nothing to be gained.
We are a frozen spirit; our thoughts a cloud of droplets; different oceans and ages brood inside – where spirit sublimates. To some our words, an acid rain, to some it is too pure, to some infectious, to some a cure.
Atla
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Re: Natural evil VS the innocent - Genetic defect in child

Post by Atla »

Whitedragon wrote: August 15th, 2020, 5:59 am
Atla wrote: August 15th, 2020, 5:43 am
Don't know, I don't have experience with such things.
Well yes, :D
No one has, and no one have a text book they can check on. This is an ongoing debate for centuries for a reason.

I'm also just trying my best as an aspiring philosopher full knowing the chances are virtually a 100% I'll fail. Why should I be any better than those that have thought about these things before me? But I'm trying to help a friend, and even half an answer is better than no answer?

I hope you won't be leaving us.
Actually I'm not a Christian and don't believe in original sin either. To be honest, the idea of choosing our destinies before our birth just doesn't sit right with me. We can only choose things after a certain age and once we understand certain things, like good vs evil. Saying that some people choose before birth to live a life of suffering, looks a bit like blaming the victim to me.

If there is a benevolent God, with some overall benevolent plan that however requires smaller sacrifices, then I would say that God chooses some things for us.
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evolution
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Re: Natural evil VS the innocent - Genetic defect in child

Post by evolution »

Whitedragon wrote: August 15th, 2020, 4:31 am
Atla wrote: August 15th, 2020, 4:14 am
Don't know, I guess personally I'd rather not have such a burden. Not that there is a choice anyway about things people are born with or happen during early childhood.
Agreed,
I think what I'm trying to say is that Earth isn't unimportant.

There are things here we may never have in Heaven, the finite in other words may be as valuable or more valuable than Heaven.
Where, exactly, do you think this 'heaven' place is, or is meant to be?
Whitedragon wrote: August 15th, 2020, 4:31 am This seems to be the staging ground and place to gain all our experience and develope our character, for instance integrity cannot be bestowed on a person, that's one of the reasons we are here.
This depends on how you are defining the word 'bestowed' here.

Also, when you say 'here', do you mean one of the reasons we are 'here', on earth, is because this is the staging ground and place to gain all our experience and develop our character?

If yes, then what for?
Whitedragon wrote: August 15th, 2020, 4:31 am We are also here to enjoy ourselves with friends and family (Ecclesiastical book),
WHY ONLY 'friends and family'? WHY NOT EVERY 'one'?
Whitedragon wrote: August 15th, 2020, 4:31 am so no measure of reward in Heaven can make up for what we miss on Earth.
What is the supposed 'reward', in Heaven (wherever that may be, to you)?
Whitedragon wrote: August 15th, 2020, 4:31 am Neither do I think Heaven is going to be that vacation spot we all think. I believe we'll be working much harder there than ever before. There may also be no Earthly favourite meals, chatting with your friend and family every day and doing nothing. I also am convinced that we'll not be forgiven there, should we step out of line, if we do, we'll be treated as the fallen angels ... we receive a lot of slack here on Earth, it can't be like that in Heaven.
You have some very great thoughts here.

Although, Heaven is actually that recreational spot that we all want. Working is 'much harder', but in a far more enjoyable and in a truly satisfying way.
I would not be so sure about no earthly favorite things. Every one is forgiven here, but not in the way that is expected, in the days of when this is being written. How are the, so called, "fallen angels" treated now, to you?
Whitedragon wrote: August 15th, 2020, 4:31 am My point is, once this Earthly life is gone, it's gone, and we may not be so happy in Heaven, or with its rewards, as Earth MIGHT have been better after all.
This is one way of looking at this, and a very good one to consider, I will say.
evolution
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Re: Natural evil VS the innocent - Genetic defect in child

Post by evolution »

Whitedragon wrote: August 15th, 2020, 4:51 am Hi, Atla,
That is the only answer we can give, and the safest one I think.
There are other answers.
Whitedragon wrote: August 15th, 2020, 4:51 am However if you'll refer back to my gate scenario, people have trouble dealing with the abstract when calamity is a more physical focus. We must help them realise that the abstract that explains these things are just as physical as their calamity ... that's not so easy and gets to the best of believers.

So how do you think can we bring the abstract into focus for such people?
First, by not seeing things as a 'calamity'.

If things are NOT perceived as being a 'calamity', then Truth is much easier to SEE, and appreciate. Once Truth is SEEN and KNOWN, then EVERY thing else is just simple and easy, and just falls into place,
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Re: Natural evil VS the innocent - Genetic defect in child

Post by Whitedragon »

Atla wrote: August 15th, 2020, 8:29 am
Whitedragon wrote: August 15th, 2020, 5:59 am

Well yes, :D
No one has, and no one have a text book they can check on. This is an ongoing debate for centuries for a reason.

I'm also just trying my best as an aspiring philosopher full knowing the chances are virtually a 100% I'll fail. Why should I be any better than those that have thought about these things before me? But I'm trying to help a friend, and even half an answer is better than no answer?

I hope you won't be leaving us.
Actually I'm not a Christian and don't believe in original sin either. To be honest, the idea of choosing our destinies before our birth just doesn't sit right with me. We can only choose things after a certain age and once we understand certain things, like good vs evil. Saying that some people choose before birth to live a life of suffering, looks a bit like blaming the victim to me.

If there is a benevolent God, with some overall benevolent plan that however requires smaller sacrifices, then I would say that God chooses some things for us.
I knew you weren't a Christian by the way you answered my one question,

We don't choose a life of suffering, because in my example we don't know what we choose. Also see Psalm 139.

Also why do we think that we have to know good and evil to be good or evil? People are perfectly willing to say genetics can make a psychopath, how is that any fairer?
We are a frozen spirit; our thoughts a cloud of droplets; different oceans and ages brood inside – where spirit sublimates. To some our words, an acid rain, to some it is too pure, to some infectious, to some a cure.
Atla
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Re: Natural evil VS the innocent - Genetic defect in child

Post by Atla »

Whitedragon wrote: August 15th, 2020, 8:43 am
Atla wrote: August 15th, 2020, 8:29 am
Actually I'm not a Christian and don't believe in original sin either. To be honest, the idea of choosing our destinies before our birth just doesn't sit right with me. We can only choose things after a certain age and once we understand certain things, like good vs evil. Saying that some people choose before birth to live a life of suffering, looks a bit like blaming the victim to me.

If there is a benevolent God, with some overall benevolent plan that however requires smaller sacrifices, then I would say that God chooses some things for us.
I knew you weren't a Christian by the way you answered my one question,

We don't choose a life of suffering, because in my example we don't know what we choose. Also see Psalm 139.

Also why do we think that we have to know good and evil to be good or evil? People are perfectly willing to say genetics can make a psychopath, how is that any fairer?
If we don't know what we choose then why should we choose at all?
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evolution
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Re: Natural evil VS the innocent - Genetic defect in child

Post by evolution »

Whitedragon wrote: August 15th, 2020, 5:27 am
Atla wrote: August 15th, 2020, 5:00 am
God works in mysterious ways, we can't fully decipher his intentions.. something like this?
Hi,
No,
That's amplifying the abstract.

We need to start with the physical, the child in this case, and place the focus primarily on him and build sound religious and spiritual arguments around that.

The child is suffering,
What is the child, supposedly, "suffering" from, exactly?

When this is explained, specifically, then, and only then, we can move forward, and in the right direction, on this.

Sound, and valid, logical arguments will then just 'fall into place'.

Until the 'suffering', which this child is allegedly having, is provided in specific detail, then what is there to actually base, and build, any, religious or spiritual, arguments up on, exactly?
Whitedragon wrote: August 15th, 2020, 4:51 am Thinking about it the child is aimless with a reduced or no future and no purpose ... that needs to be set right.
What future or purpose has ANY child really got?
Whitedragon wrote: August 15th, 2020, 4:51 am As a side note it's also a matter of failed generational continuity.
What does 'failed generational continuity' actually mean, to you?
Whitedragon wrote: August 15th, 2020, 4:51 am This is why I told the grand mother: what if every human being is in conversation with God before they are born.
Do you mean for the about nine months before birth, or before this conception, as well?

Also, you did NOT actually tell the grand mother anything here. What you did do, however, is ask her a question. Saying, "What if ..." is a question.

If you believe, however, that you KNOW what the answer is, then what is the answer to your question here?
Whitedragon wrote: August 15th, 2020, 4:51 am They make choices while communicating with God, but they don't understand the questions asked, much like ink blot tests psychologists give.
But ink blot tests are NOT questions asked. Ink blot "tests" are just perceptions, only.
Whitedragon wrote: August 15th, 2020, 4:51 am God so allows a person to choose their own destiny, based on their heart/character before birth.
A human being's heart just pumps blood, and, if, as you proposed earlier, that being on earth seems to be the staging ground and place to gain all our experience and 'develop our character', for instance integrity being one character, which if it cannot be bestowed on a person, then that 'character building' is here on earth, and is one of the reasons why we are here, then we can not choose, based on our 'character' prior to being here, on earth.

Human beings either have a 'character' before birth, or, a 'character is developed' along the way while being alive, in this Universe. Or, it might be a combination of both. But, if both is being proposed, then just how this works needs to be explained.
Whitedragon wrote: August 15th, 2020, 4:51 am The grand mother's question originally was why does he have to suffer evil if he does not and can never know or understand it, this seemed unfair to her.
Why does any child have to suffer 'evil' if a child does not and can never know or understand 'evil'? Is that the question the grand mother is essentially asking, but in relation to her grandson, only?

Also, what seems 'unfair' is caused by a very limited perspective or field of view.
Whitedragon wrote: August 15th, 2020, 4:51 am Considering that the boy, and assuming that he's free from personal evil and he has a benign personality, this description fits in a way.

Because he chose right while communicating with God before birth, he will never experience evil thoughts. I then asked the gran what would she sacrifice to be so at peace, and we both admitted his sickness is a small price to pay to live an entire life with an unblemished mind.
There is just to much assuming, contradicting, and misunderstanding here to clear up, for now.
Whitedragon wrote: August 15th, 2020, 4:51 am Coupled with your proposal, this makes even more sense.
evolution
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Re: Natural evil VS the innocent - Genetic defect in child

Post by evolution »

Whitedragon wrote: August 15th, 2020, 8:05 am
evolution wrote: August 15th, 2020, 8:02 am

WHY people are, so called, "allowed" to suffer is so that people can learn. If people did not experience 'suffering', then they would not learn what 'suffering' actually is, and also would not know what to avoid doing.

If, and when, people are brought up properly and correctly, then as responsible adults they would NOT 'suffer'. There is, after all, absolutely nothing, as an adult, to 'suffer' from actually. Children may suffer, but they only do because of some thing an adult or adults have done, to them. Now, of course, enduring constant pain is a form of suffering, and adults can and do have to endure this pain, sometimes, but there are still lessons to be learned, and taught, from this.
What lessons can a child learn that has no capacity of thinking or only basic primitive lower animal consciousness?
Whatever they learn.

And, do you know of any child that has NO capacity of thinking, at all?

I think you might find that if there is NO capacity, at all, of thinking, then there is NO capacity, at all, for any of the body to move. But you may be referring to a particular type of 'thinking', correct?

Also, how do you actually differentiate between, so called, "lower animal consciousness" and "higher animal consciousness"?
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Re: Natural evil VS the innocent - Genetic defect in child

Post by Whitedragon »

Atla wrote: August 15th, 2020, 9:04 am
Whitedragon wrote: August 15th, 2020, 8:43 am

I knew you weren't a Christian by the way you answered my one question,

We don't choose a life of suffering, because in my example we don't know what we choose. Also see Psalm 139.

Also why do we think that we have to know good and evil to be good or evil? People are perfectly willing to say genetics can make a psychopath, how is that any fairer?
If we don't know what we choose then why should we choose at all?
We both know and don't know. Few people are experts on symbolism, yet the subconscious bombards us with symbolism each night we dream. AKA or my ink blot example.

No one would voluntary say for example, I would love to be a murderer, but when they are represented for example with images or symbols, their subconscious will reveal their true nature.

Perhaps people don't even know their aggressive or good character and the only way it can be proved is through tests. This is not far removed from the paradise myth, as God must have known their choice in anyway, but did not act on it before they chose ... hence we cannot arrest a man for a crime he/she haven't committed. We can set traps or tests, however, which solidifies it and brings it gestalt.
We are a frozen spirit; our thoughts a cloud of droplets; different oceans and ages brood inside – where spirit sublimates. To some our words, an acid rain, to some it is too pure, to some infectious, to some a cure.
evolution
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Re: Natural evil VS the innocent - Genetic defect in child

Post by evolution »

Whitedragon wrote: August 15th, 2020, 8:26 am
evolution wrote: August 15th, 2020, 8:14 am

This is answered somewhat in my previous post, to this one.

Also, you appear to get your questions and answers mixed up sometimes. What you wrote here is a question, and not an answer.

Now, to answer your question here, when you say "us" do you mean human beings?

If yes, then why God did not provide human beings with the ability to switch off pain, and not provide this ability to other animals, is because human beings are no more special than other animals are.

Pain is a necessary thing, for sentient beings, so that they learn what 'not to do', in order to avoid injury.

Also, when is there an injury, which a human being can not do anything about?

Obviously other animals do not have the abilities of human beings to do things in regards to pain, from injuries, therefore a better question might be; Why did God not provide other animals with the ability to switch off pain, if they can not do anything about their injuries?

The answer to this actually takes us back to my answer to your question, which is; Pain is a necessary thing for ALL animals. Pain is 'needed' in order for them to be able to learn what to avoid doing. If it was not for pain, then animals could just keep doing what actually damages and injures the body.
What must the child stop doing not to have pain?
Well you very quickly mistook what I was actually meaning, and turned it around to absolutely NOTHING in regards to what I actually said AND meant. But this is NOT any responsibility of yours. This occurs because of my lack of communicating and being able to be understood, properly and correctly, by EVERY one.

I said; Pain is 'needed' in order for them [animals] to be able to learn what to avoid doing. This means; pain occurs so that animals learn what NOT to do next time, which caused them the pain this time. For example, if there was no pain when jumping from heights, then animals, and especially the human animal, would continue to jump from heights until they could not walk ever again or just died.

Pain is needed so that we learn to stop doing, what causes pain, and thus injury.
Whitedragon wrote: August 15th, 2020, 8:26 am There isn't even a practical scientific lesson in this.
If this is what you BELIEVE is true, BEFORE you can wait for a response, then so be it.
Whitedragon wrote: August 15th, 2020, 8:26 am Also, how do we know what kind of pain do animals experience, don't some animals suppress pain better than human animals?
My answer to your first question here is; 'We', human beings, do not know, for sure, what kind of pain do animals experience.

My answer to your second question here is; I do not know if some animals 'suppress' pain better than the human animals can. But, I would suggest they can just like some human beings can 'suppress' some pain better than some other human beings can.

Also, what do both of these questions have to do with what we were talking about?

Whitedragon wrote: August 15th, 2020, 8:26 am So it seems inaccurate to say, "pain teaches us lessons," because sometimes there are no lessons to be learned from pain to avoid it next time, as the pain is constant and no lesson or logic can be derived from it.
You have the ability to learn from absolutely ANY thing.

You, therefore, also have the ability to learn from pain.

So, it would actually be inaccurate to say, "There is NO lesson NOR logic that can be derived from pain".

Also, and by the way, 'things' can ONLY teach you lessons if you are OPEN to learning, and being taught. I have NEVER suggested that 'pain teaches you lessons' if you are NOT open to the fact that pain is a necessary part of being able to live a better life. 'Pain only teaches lessons' to those who are OPEN.

And, if there is 'constant pain, then WHY?

Understand this reason, then that is another lesson, just learned.
Whitedragon wrote: August 15th, 2020, 8:26 am In this case we have to endure pain in vain with nothing to be gained.
If you believe that there is "nothing to be gained", from being in constant pain, is true, then this 'must be' true, correct?
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Re: Natural evil VS the innocent - Genetic defect in child

Post by Whitedragon »

Hi, Evolution,
Okay,

Between you and me we can agree on this lesson view on pain, how can we take this explanation and represent it to the grandmother so it can help her and perhaps even the mother?

I don't disagree with your explanation as it is based on cause, effect and necessity for survival. Perhaps if we explore your explanation deeper, pain can actually very well teach them something, but how to present it?
We are a frozen spirit; our thoughts a cloud of droplets; different oceans and ages brood inside – where spirit sublimates. To some our words, an acid rain, to some it is too pure, to some infectious, to some a cure.
evolution
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Joined: April 19th, 2020, 6:20 am

Re: Natural evil VS the innocent - Genetic defect in child

Post by evolution »

Whitedragon wrote: August 15th, 2020, 8:43 am
Atla wrote: August 15th, 2020, 8:29 am
Actually I'm not a Christian and don't believe in original sin either. To be honest, the idea of choosing our destinies before our birth just doesn't sit right with me. We can only choose things after a certain age and once we understand certain things, like good vs evil. Saying that some people choose before birth to live a life of suffering, looks a bit like blaming the victim to me.

If there is a benevolent God, with some overall benevolent plan that however requires smaller sacrifices, then I would say that God chooses some things for us.
I knew you weren't a Christian by the way you answered my one question,

We don't choose a life of suffering, because in my example we don't know what we choose. Also see Psalm 139.

Also why do we think that we have to know good and evil to be good or evil? People are perfectly willing to say genetics can make a psychopath, how is that any fairer?
Just because some people are perfectly willing to say some things, this does not make what they say hold a skerrick of truth at all.
evolution
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Re: Natural evil VS the innocent - Genetic defect in child

Post by evolution »

Whitedragon wrote: August 15th, 2020, 9:40 am
Atla wrote: August 15th, 2020, 9:04 am
If we don't know what we choose then why should we choose at all?
We both know and don't know. Few people are experts on symbolism, yet the subconscious bombards us with symbolism each night we dream. AKA or my ink blot example.

No one would voluntary say for example, I would love to be a murderer,
I would not be so sure of this.

And, when you discover or learn the reason WHY most people would not voluntarily say, I would love to be a murderer, who actually would love to be a murderer, then you will also understand why ALL of 'you', adults, are not forthcoming and truly honest.
Whitedragon wrote: August 15th, 2020, 9:40 am but when they are represented for example with images or symbols, their subconscious will reveal their true nature.
Do you really believe that it is this easy?

If it really was this easy and simple, then why do you not all do it to each other?
Whitedragon wrote: August 15th, 2020, 9:40 am Perhaps people don't even know their aggressive or good character and the only way it can be proved is through tests. This is not far removed from the paradise myth, as God must have known their choice in anyway, but did not act on it before they chose ... hence we cannot arrest a man for a crime he/she haven't committed. We can set traps or tests, however, which solidifies it and brings it gestalt.
evolution
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Re: Natural evil VS the innocent - Genetic defect in child

Post by evolution »

Whitedragon wrote: August 15th, 2020, 9:59 am Hi, Evolution,
Okay,

Between you and me we can agree on this lesson view on pain, how can we take this explanation and represent it to the grandmother so it can help her and perhaps even the mother?
I have YET to be told of what pain this child is supposedly even in, or is allegedly suffering from. When this is actually presented to me, then I better equipped to explain to you how you can take this explanation and represent it to the grandmother.

Until you are forthcoming with answers to ALL the clarifying questions I have asked you, in regards to this alleged child, then I can NOT present you with what is best for this grandmother.
Whitedragon wrote: August 15th, 2020, 9:59 am I don't disagree with your explanation as it is based on cause, effect and necessity for survival. Perhaps if we explore your explanation deeper, pain can actually very well teach them something, but how to present it?
With Honesty, and OPENNESS. That is how I like to present EVERY thing.

Now, once again, what pain is this child supposedly in?

Also, being deaf causes NO pain at all that I am aware of.

And, being deaf also does NOT mean that that one will never experience 'evil' thoughts.

So, what pain is that child supposedly in? And, why will that child supposedly never experience 'evil' thoughts?
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October 2022

In It Together: The Beautiful Struggle Uniting Us All

In It Together: The Beautiful Struggle Uniting Us All
by Eckhart Aurelius Hughes
November 2022

The Smartest Person in the Room: The Root Cause and New Solution for Cybersecurity

The Smartest Person in the Room
by Christian Espinosa
December 2022

2021 Philosophy Books of the Month

The Biblical Clock: The Untold Secrets Linking the Universe and Humanity with God's Plan

The Biblical Clock
by Daniel Friedmann
March 2021

Wilderness Cry: A Scientific and Philosophical Approach to Understanding God and the Universe

Wilderness Cry
by Dr. Hilary L Hunt M.D.
April 2021

Fear Not, Dream Big, & Execute: Tools To Spark Your Dream And Ignite Your Follow-Through

Fear Not, Dream Big, & Execute
by Jeff Meyer
May 2021

Surviving the Business of Healthcare: Knowledge is Power

Surviving the Business of Healthcare
by Barbara Galutia Regis M.S. PA-C
June 2021

Winning the War on Cancer: The Epic Journey Towards a Natural Cure

Winning the War on Cancer
by Sylvie Beljanski
July 2021

Defining Moments of a Free Man from a Black Stream

Defining Moments of a Free Man from a Black Stream
by Dr Frank L Douglas
August 2021

If Life Stinks, Get Your Head Outta Your Buts

If Life Stinks, Get Your Head Outta Your Buts
by Mark L. Wdowiak
September 2021

The Preppers Medical Handbook

The Preppers Medical Handbook
by Dr. William W Forgey M.D.
October 2021

Natural Relief for Anxiety and Stress: A Practical Guide

Natural Relief for Anxiety and Stress
by Dr. Gustavo Kinrys, MD
November 2021

Dream For Peace: An Ambassador Memoir

Dream For Peace
by Dr. Ghoulem Berrah
December 2021