Natural evil VS the innocent - Genetic defect in child

[Atla]

Hi, Atla,
I've been thinking of your proposal of "he suffers for humanity in a little way"

All I can recall is reading a book years ago of quoting something in the Bible, which I'm struggling to find. It talks of God wanting to punish someone or a group of people, and another person "standing in the gap."

Thus it appears as if we can act on other's behalf to bear a calamity for them.

I've represented your statement to the grandmother and it made sense to her.

The next question, which I think would make for a good argument, why would God let people suffer, should he not have bore all the suffering and is it fair?

Well I guess such people will be compensated in the afterlife, so it's not fair now but it will be fair later?

But maybe God had a reason for having some people suffer like this, maybe sometimes such things are necessary so that humanity as a whole can overcomes obstacles, move forward and better itself. Because maybe most others wouldn't be able to bear much suffering and we would collapse.

[Whitedragon]

Hi, Atla,

Should everyone then not hope to have such burdens to enlarge their compensation?

[Atla]

Hi, Atla,

Should everyone then not hope to have such burdens to enlarge their compensation?

Don't know, I guess personally I'd rather not have such a burden. Not that there is a choice anyway about things people are born with or happen during early childhood.

[Whitedragon]

Hi, Atla,

Should everyone then not hope to have such burdens to enlarge their compensation?

Don't know, I guess personally I'd rather not have such a burden. Not that there is a choice anyway about things people are born with or happen during early childhood.

Agreed,
I think what I'm trying to say is that Earth isn't unimportant. There are things here we may never have in Heaven, the finite in other words may be as valuable or more valuable than Heaven. This seems to be the staging ground and place to gain all our experience and develope our character, for instance integrity cannot be bestowed on a person, that's one of the reasons we are here. We are also here to enjoy ourselves with friends and family (Ecclesiastical book), so no measure of reward in Heaven can make up for what we miss on Earth.

Neither do I think Heaven is going to be that vacation spot we all think. I believe we'll be working much harder there than ever before. There may also be no Earthly favourite meals, chatting with your friend and family every day and doing nothing. I also am convinced that we'll not be forgiven there, should we step out of line, if we do, we'll be treated as the fallen angels ... we receive a lot of slack here on Earth, it can't be like that in Heaven.

My point is, once this Earthly life is gone, it's gone, and we may not be so happy in Heaven, or with its rewards, as Earth MIGHT have been better after all.

[Atla]

Don't know, I guess personally I'd rather not have such a burden. Not that there is a choice anyway about things people are born with or happen during early childhood.

Agreed,
I think what I'm trying to say is that Earth isn't unimportant. There are things here we may never have in Heaven, the finite in other words may be as valuable or more valuable than Heaven. This seems to be the staging ground and place to gain all our experience and develope our character, for instance integrity cannot be bestowed on a person, that's one of the reasons we are here. We are also here to enjoy ourselves with friends and family (Ecclesiastical book), so no measure of reward in Heaven can make up for what we miss on Earth.

Neither do I think Heaven is going to be that vacation spot we all think. I believe we'll be working much harder there than ever before. There may also be no Earthly favourite meals, chatting with your friend and family every day and doing nothing. I also am convinced that we'll not be forgiven there, should we step out of line, if we do, we'll be treated as the fallen angels ... we receive a lot of slack here on Earth, it can't be like that in Heaven.

My point is, once this Earthly life is gone, it's gone, and we may not be so happy in Heaven, or with its rewards, as Earth MIGHT have been better after all.

Well I can again only guess that maybe God has some higher purpose for humanity, and because of that, he's willing to place such burden on some people anyway.

[Whitedragon]

Hi, Atla,
That is the only answer we can give, and the safest one I think. However if you'll refer back to my gate scenario, people have trouble dealing with the abstract when calamity is a more physical focus. We must help them realise that the abstract that explains these things are just as physical as their calamity ... that's not so easy and gets to the best of believers.

So how do you think can we bring the abstract into focus for such people?

[Atla]

Hi, Atla,
That is the only answer we can give, and the safest one I think. However if you'll refer back to my gate scenario, people have trouble dealing with the abstract when calamity is a more physical focus. We must help them realise that the abstract that explains these things are just as physical as their calamity ... that's not so easy and gets to the best of believers.

So how do you think can we bring the abstract into focus for such people?

God works in mysterious ways, we can't fully decipher his intentions.. something like this?

[Whitedragon]

Hi, Atla,
That is the only answer we can give, and the safest one I think. However if you'll refer back to my gate scenario, people have trouble dealing with the abstract when calamity is a more physical focus. We must help them realise that the abstract that explains these things are just as physical as their calamity ... that's not so easy and gets to the best of believers.

So how do you think can we bring the abstract into focus for such people?

God works in mysterious ways, we can't fully decipher his intentions.. something like this?

Hi,
No,
That's amplifying the abstract.

We need to start with the physical, the child in this case, and place the focus primarily on him and build sound religious and spiritual arguments around that.

The child is suffering,
Thinking about it the child is aimless with a reduced or no future and no purpose ... that needs to be set right. As a side note it's also a matter of failed generational continuity.

This is why I told the grand mother: what if every human being is in conversation with God before they are born. They make choices while communicating with God, but they don't understand the questions asked, much like ink blot tests psychologists give.

God so allows a person to choose their own destiny, based on their heart/character before birth.

The grand mother's question originally was why does he have to suffer evil if he does not and can never know or understand it, this seemed unfair to her.

Considering that the boy, and assuming that he's free from personal evil and he has a benign personality, this description fits in a way.

Because he chose right while communicating with God before birth, he will never experience evil thoughts. I then asked the gran what would she sacrifice to be so at peace, and we both admitted his sickness is a small price to pay to live an entire life with an unblemished mind.

Coupled with your proposal, this makes even more sense.

[Atla]

Hi,
No,
That's amplifying the abstract.

We need to start with the physical, the child in this case, and place the focus primarily on him and build sound religious and spiritual arguments around that.

Don't know, I don't have experience with such things.

[Whitedragon]

Hi,
No,
That's amplifying the abstract.

We need to start with the physical, the child in this case, and place the focus primarily on him and build sound religious and spiritual arguments around that.

Don't know, I don't have experience with such things.

Well yes,
No one has, and no one have a text book they can check on. This is an ongoing debate for centuries for a reason.

I'm also just trying my best as an aspiring philosopher full knowing the chances are virtually a 100% I'll fail. Why should I be any better than those that have thought about these things before me? But I'm trying to help a friend, and even half an answer is better than no answer?

I hope you won't be leaving us.

[Sculptor1]

Hi, Atla,
That is the only answer we can give, and the safest one I think. However if you'll refer back to my gate scenario, people have trouble dealing with the abstract when calamity is a more physical focus. We must help them realise that the abstract that explains these things are just as physical as their calamity ... that's not so easy and gets to the best of believers.

So how do you think can we bring the abstract into focus for such people?

God works in mysterious ways, we can't fully decipher his intentions.. something like this?

[evolution]

If there is a specific question, for example, like; 'Why does God permit evil?', which someone would like the answer to, then a specific answer can be given. But, until specific questions are presented, then the specific answers can not come forward.

Hi, Evolution,
Listen, mate, I'm glad your back,

Let's take this a bit at a time. We can come back to the OP question later, I don't think we'll be able to deal with it in anyway before we understand the issue better.

I wasn't aware you didn't know what the theodicy question is, easily put, it just questions God's Omni attributes vs why he doesn't take away pain and suffering.

1. God is NOT a "he", unless, of course, this can be proven otherwise.

2. 'Pain' and/or 'suffering' are VERY 'relative' things, to an observer.

What human beings consider as 'pain' and/or 'suffering' God may certainly NOT.

For now I think we should first ask, "what is pain and suffering" from a theistic or philosophical viewpoint or both.

Yes, now this is a GREAT start, from my perspective anyway.

Okay, so now, " 'What is pain and suffering', from a theistic or philosophical viewpoint or both', from your viewpoint?

To me,

'Pain' is just associated with the physical body and specifically with the nerve endings and/or the pain receptors. Whereas,

'Suffering' is associated with the thoughts and/or emotions, within the body.

'Pain' is just a very 'normal' part of a physical body, which contains nerve endings and/or pain receptors. Pain receptors are 'necessary' for a better life, for that body.

'Suffering' is just a perception, which is 'relative' to each and every unique person.

Now, I am NOT in a position to provide a 'theistic' nor 'philosophical' point of view, as I can only provide, accurately, only 'that' what I have actually observed and experienced, and if I am honest, those points of view only. I can only, accurately, provide a viewpoint, from my perspective, only.

By the way, there is One agreed viewpoint, from which ALL could agree with. So, ANY viewpoint, including 'theistic' and 'philosophical' viewpoint would have to be views and a way of SEEING things in the same way. Every thing else are just 'perceptions', which may or may not be true at all. Therefore, if we are looking for a True view of 'What is, actually, pain and suffering?' then that view would be the One, which could be or is in agreement from the advantage viewpoint of ALL, and NOT a view from any particular nor limited point of view.

But do not let this detract you from providing your point of view of; 'What is pain and suffering?'

After we've done this I will explain the thread question again and it should be easier to answer.

Okay. I have done my part already.

[Whitedragon]

Hi, Evolution,
Let's deal with your pain receptor statement first:

Shouldn't the answer then be, why didn't God provide us with the ability to switch off pain if we can't do anything about the injury?

[evolution]

I don't really know that, sorry..

Hi, Atla,
I've been thinking of your proposal of "he suffers for humanity in a little way"

All I can recall is reading a book years ago of quoting something in the Bible, which I'm struggling to find. It talks of God wanting to punish someone or a group of people, and another person "standing in the gap."

Thus it appears as if we can act on other's behalf to bear a calamity for them.

I've represented your statement to the grandmother and it made sense to her.

The next question, which I think would make for a good argument, why would God let people suffer, should he not have bore all the suffering and is it fair?

WHY people are, so called, "allowed" to suffer is so that people can learn. If people did not experience 'suffering', then they would not learn what 'suffering' actually is, and also would not know what to avoid doing.

If, and when, people are brought up properly and correctly, then as responsible adults they would NOT 'suffer'. There is, after all, absolutely nothing, as an adult, to 'suffer' from actually. Children may suffer, but they only do because of some thing an adult or adults have done, to them. Now, of course, enduring constant pain is a form of suffering, and adults can and do have to endure this pain, sometimes, but there are still lessons to be learned, and taught, from this.

[Whitedragon]

Hi, Atla,
I've been thinking of your proposal of "he suffers for humanity in a little way"

All I can recall is reading a book years ago of quoting something in the Bible, which I'm struggling to find. It talks of God wanting to punish someone or a group of people, and another person "standing in the gap."

Thus it appears as if we can act on other's behalf to bear a calamity for them.

I've represented your statement to the grandmother and it made sense to her.

The next question, which I think would make for a good argument, why would God let people suffer, should he not have bore all the suffering and is it fair?

WHY people are, so called, "allowed" to suffer is so that people can learn. If people did not experience 'suffering', then they would not learn what 'suffering' actually is, and also would not know what to avoid doing.

If, and when, people are brought up properly and correctly, then as responsible adults they would NOT 'suffer'. There is, after all, absolutely nothing, as an adult, to 'suffer' from actually. Children may suffer, but they only do because of some thing an adult or adults have done, to them. Now, of course, enduring constant pain is a form of suffering, and adults can and do have to endure this pain, sometimes, but there are still lessons to be learned, and taught, from this.

What lessons can a child learn that has no capacity of thinking or only basic primitive lower animal consciousness?