The God Question

Discuss philosophical questions regarding theism (and atheism), and discuss religion as it relates to philosophy. This includes any philosophical discussions that happen to be about god, gods, or a 'higher power' or the belief of them. This also generally includes philosophical topics about organized or ritualistic mysticism or about organized, common or ritualistic beliefs in the existence of supernatural phenomenon.
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Angel Trismegistus
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Re: The God Question

Post by Angel Trismegistus »

Jklint wrote: September 14th, 2020, 4:17 am
Angel Trismegistus wrote: September 14th, 2020, 3:01 am
Taking a page out of Ambrose Bierce's The Devil's Dictionary, a bit of cosmic relief:

militant atheist, n.
a person obsessed with God
I could have said hypocritical coming from you but being a true diplomat, :lol:, I'll just say amusing based on what I read of your posts on another site where you have as much luck convincing people of god's real existence as you have here. Being a gentleman, I'll keep that site unmentioned. :mrgreen:
I thought I recognized the voice!
Anyway, "convincing people" is one thing; convincing atheists, another thing altogether.
I've tried for years to convince my cats that Beethoven is a great composer of music. In vain.
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Steve3007
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Re: The God Question

Post by Steve3007 »

Steve3007 wrote:I think telling a militant atheist that they are obsessed with God is a bit like telling a person that they're obsessed with air due to the fact that they breathe it.
Angel Trismegistus wrote:I've tried for years to convince my cats that Beethoven is a great composer of music. In vain.
Angel: Hey cat, I'm going to play Beethoven to you all day every day.

A few years later:

Cat: Turn off that bloody Beethoven! I'm sick of it!
Angel: You're obsessed with Beethoven!
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Angel Trismegistus
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Re: The God Question

Post by Angel Trismegistus »

Steve3007 wrote: September 14th, 2020, 4:18 am
Angel Trismegistus wrote:Common, you say? And here I was, thinking myself original and clever!
In my experience, the vast majority of people, atheist and theist alike, aren't interested in discussing the subject. But of those who do, it's fairly common for the theist to tell the atheist that atheism is a belief, as opposed to the word for a lack of belief, and that, due to the fact that they argue back, they're obsessed with God. It's just how the argument goes:

Theist: "I propose that the universe was created by a sentient being who takes a personal interest in human morals. I call that being God."
Atheist: "I think that's nonsense."
Theist: "You're obsessed with God!"
As to who started the fight, well, you seem to have missed the early episodes in the miniseries wherein the Four Horsemen of New Atheism, armed with caustic wit and witless bigotry, wrought havoc upon impressionable minds in their terrorizing ride across cyberspace.
You've mentioned them before. Dawkins et al? So theism and atheism, in your view, started with them?
Do you recognize this man?
Image
This is what atheism looked like not so long ago.

NOW FAST-FORWARD FIFTY YEARS...

And get a load of the New Atheism:

Image

"Quick, send in the clowns...
Don't bother, they're here.
"

-- Sondheim
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Steve3007
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Re: The God Question

Post by Steve3007 »

Angel Trismegistus wrote:
So, as I said, most atheists and theists aren't interested in discussing the subject. We, in places like this, are rare exceptions.

Why do you start conversations, in various forums, about God? Is it just to tell anybody who answers that they're obsessed with God? I'm interested in whether you're hoping to change something or whether you're just interested in the subject.
Jklint
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Re: The God Question

Post by Jklint »

Angel Trismegistus wrote: September 14th, 2020, 4:43 am
Jklint wrote: September 14th, 2020, 4:17 am

I could have said hypocritical coming from you but being a true diplomat, :lol:, I'll just say amusing based on what I read of your posts on another site where you have as much luck convincing people of god's real existence as you have here. Being a gentleman, I'll keep that site unmentioned. :mrgreen:
I thought I recognized the voice!
Wrong again! The first time I encountered that site was a few days ago based on something you wrote and decided to check up on. I clicked on the first few google entries which took me to a forum I never knew existed which isn't a surprise since there are plenty of those. In short, I was never a member and don't intend to be.

I too had a cat. He didn't mind Beethoven or Wagner as long as it was at low volume. But when it came to the Missa Solemnis or Bruckner's Te Deum I couldn't help myself so he left me alone to experience the Divine through sound instead of scripture and all the other useless theistic mumbo jumbo. Btw, the cat's name was Papageno!
Steve3007
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Re: The God Question

Post by Steve3007 »

(To Angel)
Jklint wrote:I'll just say amusing based on what I read of your posts on another site where you have as much luck convincing people of god's real existence as you have here.
As a general rule, that's going to be true of any belief system to which a person strongly adheres to the extent that they want to post various comments on various internet forums promoting it, isn't it? It'll naturally tend to attract comment from people who have something to say to challenge it. That's why theists like our Angel (and there have been many more over the years on this site) always think they're surrounded by militant atheists who are obsessed with bashing God. Most theists will never have even heard of the like of Richard Dawkins.
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Angel Trismegistus
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Re: The God Question

Post by Angel Trismegistus »

Steve3007 wrote: September 14th, 2020, 5:09 am
Angel Trismegistus wrote:
So, as I said, most atheists and theists aren't interested in discussing the subject. We, in places like this, are rare exceptions.

Why do you start conversations, in various forums, about God? Is it just to tell anybody who answers that they're obsessed with God? I'm interested in whether you're hoping to change something or whether you're just interested in the subject.
I dare say I post for the same reason you post: my own amusement. I post on God rather than politics because millennial politics is a real bummer and big turn-off whereas God is the ultimate turn-on and truth of things.
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Angel Trismegistus
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Re: The God Question

Post by Angel Trismegistus »

Jklint wrote: September 14th, 2020, 5:17 am I too had a cat. He didn't mind Beethoven or Wagner as long as it was at low volume. But when it came to the Missa Solemnis or Bruckner's Te Deum I couldn't help myself so he left me alone to experience the Divine through sound instead of scripture and all the other useless theistic mumbo jumbo. Btw, the cat's name was Papageno!
Great name for a cat! So how did he react to Mozart's Requiem?
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Steve3007
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Re: The God Question

Post by Steve3007 »

Angel Trismegistus wrote:I dare say I post for the same reason you post: my own amusement. I post on God rather than politics because millennial politics is a real bummer and big turn-off whereas God is the ultimate turn-on and truth of things.
It isn't just a choice between religion and politics. There are other subjects too.

I think we all post for our own amusement and interest. After all, we don't get paid for it, so why else would we do it? But the question then would be what amusement we find. For me, one of the main ones is talking to people who appear to think differently about the world than I do. In the context of religion, that generally means talking to people with religious views as almost nobody I know in my everyday life, among living family, colleagues and friends, has any, as far as I can tell.

So anyway, why choose Sartre, of all people, as your exemplar of good old fashioned civilized pipe smoking Atheism? Surely Russell is the classic example of the pipe smoking atheist?
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Angel Trismegistus
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Re: The God Question

Post by Angel Trismegistus »

Steve3007 wrote: September 14th, 2020, 6:14 am So anyway, why choose Sartre, of all people, as your exemplar of good old fashioned civilized pipe smoking Atheism? Surely Russell is the classic example of the pipe smoking atheist?
I set the post up in terms of "not so long ago" and Sartre is the more recent "exemplar of good old fashioned civilized pipe smoking Atheism."
Also, Sartre comes with this monumental atheistic tome:
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Terrapin Station
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Re: The God Question

Post by Terrapin Station »

Steve3007 wrote: September 14th, 2020, 4:18 am
Angel Trismegistus wrote:Common, you say? And here I was, thinking myself original and clever!
In my experience, the vast majority of people, atheist and theist alike, aren't interested in discussing the subject. But of those who do, it's fairly common for the theist to tell the atheist that atheism is a belief, as opposed to the word for a lack of belief, and that, due to the fact that they argue back, they're obsessed with God. It's just how the argument goes:

Theist: "I propose that the universe was created by a sentient being who takes a personal interest in human morals. I call that being God."
Atheist: "I think that's nonsense."
Theist: "You're obsessed with God!"
As to who started the fight, well, you seem to have missed the early episodes in the miniseries wherein the Four Horsemen of New Atheism, armed with caustic wit and witless bigotry, wrought havoc upon impressionable minds in their terrorizing ride across cyberspace.
You've mentioned them before. Dawkins et al? So theism and atheism, in your view, started with them?
I'm an atheist who tells other atheists that atheism is a belief--at least if one has at all heard and thought about the idea of a god. (I also think it's a bit silly to say that people are atheists when they haven't even thought about this issue at all, but that's another topic.)

There's a subset of atheists who are irrationally neurotic about the notion of having any beliefs. They respond like the board member who goes by "evolution" (formerly "creation") when you point out that they have a endless stream of beliefs.
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Terrapin Station
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Re: The God Question

Post by Terrapin Station »

Angel Trismegistus wrote: September 14th, 2020, 4:43 am I've tried for years to convince my cats that Beethoven is a great composer of music. In vain.
Which composer do your cats say they prefer?
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Terrapin Station
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Re: The God Question

Post by Terrapin Station »

Steve3007 wrote: September 14th, 2020, 5:09 am So, as I said, most atheists and theists aren't interested in discussing the subject. We, in places like this, are rare exceptions.

Why do you start conversations, in various forums, about God? Is it just to tell anybody who answers that they're obsessed with God? I'm interested in whether you're hoping to change something or whether you're just interested in the subject.
I'd never discuss it if it weren't brought up. I find religion/god/etc. completely absurd and to me there's zero mystery why people who believe it believe it (even if the beliefs are due to various reasons), so it's not that interesting.
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Terrapin Station
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Re: The God Question

Post by Terrapin Station »

Angel Trismegistus wrote: September 14th, 2020, 7:07 am
Steve3007 wrote: September 14th, 2020, 6:14 am So anyway, why choose Sartre, of all people, as your exemplar of good old fashioned civilized pipe smoking Atheism? Surely Russell is the classic example of the pipe smoking atheist?
I set the post up in terms of "not so long ago" and Sartre is the more recent "exemplar of good old fashioned civilized pipe smoking Atheism."
Also, Sartre comes with this monumental atheistic tome:
Image
As an "atheistic tome," and as many other things, that one sucks.

Try one of these instead:

Image

Image
Steve3007
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Re: The God Question

Post by Steve3007 »

Terrapin Station wrote:I'm an atheist who tells other atheists that atheism is a belief--at least if one has at all heard and thought about the idea of a god.
Fair enough.
(I also think it's a bit silly to say that people are atheists when they haven't even thought about this issue at all, but that's another topic.)
Yes, if they literally haven't thought about it at all. I think most people have thought about it a bit, but just aren't particularly interested in discussing it because it's not very interesting to them and because they don't want to cause offence or awkwardness. "Steer clear of politics and religion" is often a rule when trying to avoid tension in social situations.
There's a subset of atheists who are irrationally neurotic about the notion of having any beliefs. They respond like the board member who goes by "evolution" (formerly "creation") when you point out that they have a endless stream of beliefs.
The argument between theists who claim that atheism is a belief and atheists who claim that it is a lack of belief (and that there is a fundamental difference) has happened a lot on this board, and often gone on at great length. I think one of the motives stems from the way the argument often develops and the way that the word "belief" is used specifically to mean belief stemming from things other than just empirical evidence, such as cultural conditioning, upbringing, desire/wishful thinking, emotional need etc. That is, the kinds of beliefs that atheists often charge theists with holding and regard as flawed or inadequate. The theist then counters by saying that since atheism is a belief, like theism, the atheist suffers from these "flaws" for the same reasons. So they play the "If I'm going down I'm taking you with me" move. The atheist thinks the best counter-move is to deny that atheism is a belief. I suppose they'd be better advised instead to examine the different types of belief.

I think evolutions's motive is due to that usage of "belief" and due to the whole "I'm an open-minded inquisitive child, uncorrupted by the prejudices of the adult world, and I can therefore see simple truths that you others can't" schtick.
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