Afterlife Ideas.

Discuss philosophical questions regarding theism (and atheism), and discuss religion as it relates to philosophy. This includes any philosophical discussions that happen to be about god, gods, or a 'higher power' or the belief of them. This also generally includes philosophical topics about organized or ritualistic mysticism or about organized, common or ritualistic beliefs in the existence of supernatural phenomenon.
Fellowmater
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Afterlife Ideas.

Post by Fellowmater »

Is there anyway that every idea of life after death can be correct? There apparently are many ideas in different religions and personal beliefs that really seem completely in conflict with one another. But in general most beliefs seem to favor a paradise. Eliminating all pains from this world and becoming young again. Such an optimistic view of what's next. Shouldn't they seem suspicious as well? Simply existing without health problems and with physical and mental energy and focus is enough for me.
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Re: Afterlife Ideas.

Post by LuckyR »

Fellowmater wrote: October 8th, 2020, 2:27 am Is there anyway that every idea of life after death can be correct? There apparently are many ideas in different religions and personal beliefs that really seem completely in conflict with one another. But in general most beliefs seem to favor a paradise. Eliminating all pains from this world and becoming young again. Such an optimistic view of what's next. Shouldn't they seem suspicious as well? Simply existing without health problems and with physical and mental energy and focus is enough for me.
Life after death is as metaphysical a topic as gods are, in the sense there is no objective data to support nor refute it. Similarly, regardless if there is or isn't life after death, humans would invent the concept either as a coping mechanism for the death of loved ones and/or to appease and manipulate the rabble by the leadership.
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Re: Afterlife Ideas.

Post by fionaimmodest »

The idea of life after death seems to have developed from a vague awareness, and attempts to make sense of, a very real capacity to interact with the world beyond one’s physical existence. When we remember and embody the unrealised intentions or preferences of someone who has died, individually or collectively, then what has heretofore defined that person in life is able to ‘live’ on and interact with us - if not visibly in the world, then somewhere, somehow. Given that many people still describe emotion as a ‘force’ of some kind, it stands to reason that they would describe this potential influence of the departed in a similar way. Many questions naturally arise from this, and the possible answers put forward, and subjectivity in validating them, help to shape how one would, could or should live and interact in an eternal, cultural reality. In the absence of any way to verify, and as a comfort to those facing what is essentially unknown, why wouldn’t we favour a paradise, or at least a more optimistic possibility?
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Re: Afterlife Ideas.

Post by Fellowmater »

If one is psychological, are they mentally sound and responsible for their actions? If one creates a world for themselves, assumingly of their own free will and desire, what reason would one have to seek elsewhere? Curiosity, perhaps as a result of boredom? Perhaps. I'm reminded of the old adage, as one man's trash is another man's treasure, one man's hell is surely another man's heaven.
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Re: Afterlife Ideas.

Post by Pattern-chaser »

Fellowmater wrote: October 8th, 2020, 2:27 am Is there anyway that every idea of life after death can be correct? There apparently are many ideas in different religions and personal beliefs that really seem completely in conflict with one another. But in general most beliefs seem to favor a paradise. Eliminating all pains from this world and becoming young again. Such an optimistic view of what's next. Shouldn't they seem suspicious as well? Simply existing without health problems and with physical and mental energy and focus is enough for me.
I think even this is just wishful thinking. If there is life after death - and personally, I think there is - it won't be a reprise of what just happened, but a transition to something quite different. Probably with no physical body? I don't know. But I don't think an idealised and better version of the life you just lead is likely. We'll have to wait and see! 🙂
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Re: Afterlife Ideas.

Post by Jack D Ripper »

Fellowmater wrote: October 8th, 2020, 2:27 am Is there anyway that every idea of life after death can be correct?

No, absolutely not. Different ideas contradict each other, and consequently some of the ideas must be false, no matter what the truth might be.

Fellowmater wrote: October 8th, 2020, 2:27 am There apparently are many ideas in different religions and personal beliefs that really seem completely in conflict with one another. But in general most beliefs seem to favor a paradise.

The phrase you might want to think about is called "wishful thinking." But there is also in traditional Christianity the idea of hell, with eternal torment for those who do not pick the right religion and do what is necessary to avoid it. Traditionally in Christianity, most people are thought to go to hell when they die, not heaven. Of course, some modern Christians reject the bits of traditional Christianity that they don't like, so this is obviously not going to be a description of the beliefs of everyone who claims to be a Christian.

Fellowmater wrote: October 8th, 2020, 2:27 am Eliminating all pains from this world and becoming young again. Such an optimistic view of what's next. Shouldn't they seem suspicious as well?

Yes, you should be suspicious of unsupported optimism.

Fellowmater wrote: October 8th, 2020, 2:27 am Simply existing without health problems and with physical and mental energy and focus is enough for me.

The best evidence suggests that your mind is simply a subset of the actions of the brain. This is why, for example, consuming alcohol affects one's mind, because alcohol gets into the brain and affects the actions there. There has also been a great deal learned from people with brain injuries, about how part of their minds can be gone in very strange and interesting ways. One of the books of Oliver Sacks would be a good introduction to some of these ideas, like The Man who Mistook his Wife for a Hat. So, if one's mind is a subset of the actions of your brain, when your brain stops doing things, you will cease to exist. So there is no afterlife according to the best available evidence. The year 2200 will be for you just what the year 1800 was for you, which is, nothing at all.

This, by the way, is not a new idea, though it is supported by the best currently available evidence. The philosopher Epicurus had basically the same view of things thousands of years ago (though he did not localize the mind to the brain):

2) Death is nothing to us, because a body that has been dispersed into elements experiences no sensations, and the absence of sensation is nothing to us.
http://epicurism.info/etexts/PD.html

Death is no concern to us. All things good and bad are experienced through sensation, but sensation ceases at death. So death is nothing to us, and to know this makes a mortal life happy. Life is not improved by adding infinite time; removing the desire for immortality is what’s required. There is no reason why one who is convinced that there is nothing to fear at death should fear anything about it during life. And whoever says that he dreads death not because it’s painful to experience, but only because it’s painful to contemplate, is foolish. It is pointless to agonize over something that brings no trouble when it arrives. So death, the most dreaded of evils, is nothing to us, because when we exist, death is not present, and when death is present, we do not exist. It neither concerns the living nor the dead, since death does not exist for the living, and the dead no longer exist.
http://epicurism.info/etexts/Lives.html#I40
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Re: Afterlife Ideas.

Post by Ecurb »

LuckyR wrote: October 9th, 2020, 1:41 am

Life after death is as metaphysical a topic as gods are, in the sense there is no objective data to support nor refute it.
There's no scientific data to support or refute it. If you were one of the apostles, (Thomas, perhaps) you might have a hard time believing your eyes, having buried the dead Jesus, to see him walking about as alive as you or me. But the evidence would be as "objective" as the evidence for any other event you witnessed.
24 Now Thomas (also known as Didymus[a]), one of the Twelve, was not with the disciples when Jesus came. 25 So the other disciples told him, “We have seen the Lord!”

But he said to them, “Unless I see the nail marks in his hands and put my finger where the nails were, and put my hand into his side, I will not believe.”

26 A week later his disciples were in the house again, and Thomas was with them. Though the doors were locked, Jesus came and stood among them and said, “Peace be with you!” 27 Then he said to Thomas, “Put your finger here; see my hands. Reach out your hand and put it into my side. Stop doubting and believe.”
Thomas (like most of us) was skeptical about life after death, but the evidence that persuaded him was about as "objective" as you can get.

Of course I don't believe the above account and neither do many of us here on the Philosophy Forum. Neither did Thomas, when he heard the eyewitness accounts of his buddies. That's because our prejudices find risng from the dead incredible. The eye-witnesses might be dissembling, or deluded. The accounts may have changed between the time of the testimony and the time at which it was written down in the Gospels. But I don't think we can say that the purported evidence isn't objective.
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Re: Afterlife Ideas.

Post by Jack D Ripper »

Ecurb wrote: October 9th, 2020, 12:55 pm
LuckyR wrote: October 9th, 2020, 1:41 am

Life after death is as metaphysical a topic as gods are, in the sense there is no objective data to support nor refute it.
There's no scientific data to support or refute it.

That is false. There is scientific evidence that the mind is a subset of the processes of the brain. Which would mean that when the processes stop, one's mind will no longer exist. The objective data strongly supports the idea that there is no afterlife.

Ecurb wrote: October 9th, 2020, 12:55 pm If you were one of the apostles, (Thomas, perhaps) you might have a hard time believing your eyes, having buried the dead Jesus, to see him walking about as alive as you or me. But the evidence would be as "objective" as the evidence for any other event you witnessed.
24 Now Thomas (also known as Didymus[a]), one of the Twelve, was not with the disciples when Jesus came. 25 So the other disciples told him, “We have seen the Lord!”

But he said to them, “Unless I see the nail marks in his hands and put my finger where the nails were, and put my hand into his side, I will not believe.”

26 A week later his disciples were in the house again, and Thomas was with them. Though the doors were locked, Jesus came and stood among them and said, “Peace be with you!” 27 Then he said to Thomas, “Put your finger here; see my hands. Reach out your hand and put it into my side. Stop doubting and believe.”
Thomas (like most of us) was skeptical about life after death, but the evidence that persuaded him was about as "objective" as you can get.

Of course I don't believe the above account and neither do many of us here on the Philosophy Forum. Neither did Thomas, when he heard the eyewitness accounts of his buddies.

You are writing as if the story were true. But one can write down anything in a book. The character of Thomas may never have existed, just like Mr. Darcy in Pride and Prejudice did not exist.

Ecurb wrote: October 9th, 2020, 12:55 pm That's because our prejudices find risng from the dead incredible.

You are misusing the term "prejudices":

prejudice

NOUN

mass noun
1 Preconceived opinion that is not based on reason or actual experience.

1.1 Dislike, hostility, or unjust behaviour deriving from preconceived and unfounded opinions.

2 Law
Harm or injury that results or may result from some action or judgement.

Judging a matter after a proper consideration of the facts is not prejudice.

Ecurb wrote: October 9th, 2020, 12:55 pm The eye-witnesses might be dissembling, or deluded. The accounts may have changed between the time of the testimony and the time at which it was written down in the Gospels. But I don't think we can say that the purported evidence isn't objective.

Yes, there are a whole lot of reasons to not believe that story. First, it could just be a story that has no basis in reality, like a novel. Second, people can lie or be deluded as you say, or, to be more charitable, they can be mistaken. I have seen a magician "saw a lady in half" and then "put her back together again" which, if I were an idiot, I might believe is a literally accurate description of what I saw, instead of believing it was a good trick. Additionally, back then, determining that someone was dead was inexact, and so one might see someone who appears to be dead, but is not really, who could be in a coma or unconscious for some other reason. Appearing to be dead and being dead are not the same, though it may be hard to tell the difference, particularly if one is a primitive person who lacks modern medical knowledge.

For more on considerations regarding stories of miracles, see David Hume's "Of Miracles", which is Section X of his Enquiry Concerning Human Understanding:

https://oll.libertyfund.org/titles/341#lf0222_label_047
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Re: Afterlife Ideas.

Post by Ecurb »

OK. I grant that science can offer "evidence" that people don't rise from the dead, but it can't offer proof. The well known problem of induction prevents this.

Thomas is (of course) a character in a book. But (we've had this discussion before) he's not a "fictional" character, in that the book is supposed to be a history, not a work of fiction. Napoleon is "a character in a book", as is Julius Caesar and his beloved Cleopatra. Are we to dismiss all "characters in books" as "fictional"?

Our belief that people don't rise from the dead is (I suppose) based on experience. We've never seen it happen. But the apostles belief is (supposedly) also based on experience: they did see it happen. So our "prejudice" is in thinking OUR experience trumps averyone else's. Our prejudice is also to believe in events that conform to our world view, and disbelieve those that do not. Heck, Thomas did the same (until objective facts interfered, when seeing Jesus was confirmed by touching Him.).
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Re: Afterlife Ideas.

Post by Jack D Ripper »

It is not prejudice to prefer one's own experience to the alleged experience of others. One only has one's own experience, not anyone else's. For the experience of others, one has their word for what happened, sometimes with material evidence, and we can consider the question of how often other people's words match up to reality and how often they do not. And we can consider the types of things that are reported, as some subjects are such that people are known to lie about them more frequently than others. Some cases are so common that they are proverbial cases, like the used car salesman telling you about the condition of the car he is trying to sell to you.

We also judge testimony based on the particular person who is giving the testimony. If, for example, your cousin John tells you something, and your cousin John has lied to you many times in the past, that rather detracts from the evidential value of his testimony. Or if the testimony is from someone known to not be very bright, we are more apt to suppose that the person may be mistaken, than if the person is known to be intelligent and an expert on the matter at hand.

When someone says something that they obviously wish were true, that, again, affects the reliability of the testimony, because it is well-known that people engage in wishful thinking, and are generally more apt to believe something they want to be true than they are to believe something that they do not want to be true.

It is well-known that people often like to brag, and here we can consider the proverbial fish story, of the fisherman who tells you about the size of the fish he caught last year, or the size of the fish that got away from him the last time he went fishing. Of course, this same idea applies to all kinds of instances of bragging, and is not limited to fishing.

When someone has something to gain by their testimony, like money, as with the used car salesman, or something else, like sex, with a date talking about himself, or any other thing someone wants, like fame or renown, that diminishes the reliability of the testimony, because the person has a motive to tell you what they are telling, beyond whether the statement is true.

Additionally, when the testimony of one person contradicts the testimony of another person, we know that one of them must be wrong in what they are saying.

So there are all sorts of things involved in the evaluation of testimony, which can never be as sure as seeing something with one's own eyes. This is because we know that people lie, we know that people make mistakes, so we know that human testimony is often false. Of course, as my previous example of the magician shows, one should not simply trust one's eyes, or one may well believe that the magician really did saw the lady in half and magically put her back together again. So in all cases, the application of reason is essential for not getting things horribly wrong.

The reasoned analysis of the evidence is what is needed to make the fewest mistakes. Prejudice would be to come to a conclusion without first reasoning about it.
"A wise man ... proportions his belief to the evidence." - David Hume
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Re: Afterlife Ideas.

Post by Jack D Ripper »

Ecurb wrote: October 9th, 2020, 1:45 pm...

Our belief that people don't rise from the dead is (I suppose) based on experience. We've never seen it happen. ...
It is based primarily on theoretical considerations about what death is. If someone appeared to be dead, but then got up and demonstrated that he or she was alive, most of us would say that we were mistaken when we thought that the person was dead. There are all sorts of conditions that can fool one on such matters. And certainly, if someone else told me that they saw someone rise from the dead, if I had any tendency to believe that there was any truth to their story at all (it would depend on who it was and all of the particular circumstances involved), I would be thinking that they were mistaken about the person being dead, or mistaken in believing that they saw the person alive again later on. The reason being, the likelihood of their testimony being false is much higher than the likelihood of someone rising from the dead. I have a lot of experience of observing false testimony, but not any of anyone rising from the dead. Anyone who has made it to adulthood has a lot of experience of observing false testimony, so everyone should not be surprised if they encounter more of it.
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Re: Afterlife Ideas.

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Fellowmater wrote: October 8th, 2020, 2:27 am Is there anyway that every idea of life after death can be correct? There apparently are many ideas in different religions and personal beliefs that really seem completely in conflict with one another. But in general most beliefs seem to favor a paradise. Eliminating all pains from this world and becoming young again. Such an optimistic view of what's next. Shouldn't they seem suspicious as well? Simply existing without health problems and with physical and mental energy and focus is enough for me.
There is no way any idea of afterlife makes any sense at all.
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Re: Afterlife Ideas.

Post by Sculptor1 »

LuckyR wrote: October 9th, 2020, 1:41 am
Fellowmater wrote: October 8th, 2020, 2:27 am Is there anyway that every idea of life after death can be correct? There apparently are many ideas in different religions and personal beliefs that really seem completely in conflict with one another. But in general most beliefs seem to favor a paradise. Eliminating all pains from this world and becoming young again. Such an optimistic view of what's next. Shouldn't they seem suspicious as well? Simply existing without health problems and with physical and mental energy and focus is enough for me.
Life after death is as metaphysical a topic as gods are, in the sense there is no objective data to support nor refute it. Similarly, regardless if there is or isn't life after death, humans would invent the concept either as a coping mechanism for the death of loved ones and/or to appease and manipulate the rabble by the leadership.
There is buckets of objective data to refute teh idea of life after death.
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Re: Afterlife Ideas.

Post by Jack D Ripper »

Sculptor1 wrote: October 9th, 2020, 4:14 pm
Fellowmater wrote: October 8th, 2020, 2:27 am Is there anyway that every idea of life after death can be correct? There apparently are many ideas in different religions and personal beliefs that really seem completely in conflict with one another. But in general most beliefs seem to favor a paradise. Eliminating all pains from this world and becoming young again. Such an optimistic view of what's next. Shouldn't they seem suspicious as well? Simply existing without health problems and with physical and mental energy and focus is enough for me.
There is no way any idea of afterlife makes any sense at all.
It is depressing that making no sense is irrelevant for what so many people believe about this and so many other things.
"A wise man ... proportions his belief to the evidence." - David Hume
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Re: Afterlife Ideas.

Post by Sculptor1 »

Jack D Ripper wrote: October 9th, 2020, 4:23 pm
Sculptor1 wrote: October 9th, 2020, 4:14 pm
There is no way any idea of afterlife makes any sense at all.
It is depressing that making no sense is irrelevant for what so many people believe about this and so many other things.
Indeed. People do not care about what makes sense, they prefer to live in their fantasy worlds, and would rather die than think.
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