Proof there is no God

Discuss philosophical questions regarding theism (and atheism), and discuss religion as it relates to philosophy. This includes any philosophical discussions that happen to be about god, gods, or a 'higher power' or the belief of them. This also generally includes philosophical topics about organized or ritualistic mysticism or about organized, common or ritualistic beliefs in the existence of supernatural phenomenon.
User avatar
Sculptor1
Posts: 7091
Joined: May 16th, 2019, 5:35 am

Re: Proof there is no God

Post by Sculptor1 »

Jack D Ripper wrote: October 20th, 2020, 5:13 pm
Sculptor1 wrote: October 20th, 2020, 1:59 pm

LOL
The central plank of the Christian delusion is incoherent babble.

If God is God then to whom does he have to appeal for justice?
When one considers the start in the Bible, how could it go any other way? With Genesis chapters 1 & 2, we have light before there is a source of light, and we have the two stories of creation, one right after the other, where the order of things being created is changed from one to the next. So the BIble is inconsistent before the end of the first two chapters. But it gets even more interesting in Genesis 2 & 3, with the story of the garden of Eden, where Adam and Eve are expected by god to not eat of the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, which is to say, god expects them to know that it is "evil" to disobey god before they have the knowledge of good and evil. At that point, everyone should know the story is batshit crazy, so by the time one gets to the stuff about Jesus, one should have a pretty good idea that it isn't going to make any sense either.

Really, with god expecting people to know what is good and evil before they can know what is good and evil shows either that god is evil, willfully setting them up to fail, or is incredibly stupid or just plain crazy.

Yeah, that is what people worship. That is their idea of something good and wise and omniscient. It would be difficult to parody such a ridiculous and insane story. It already reads like an overdone parody of something.

Of course, there is a reason why I did not start the thread with any mention of the Bible. What is entailed there for the believers is mere inconsistency. With the Bible, things become a completely incoherent mess. It is amazing that any adult takes the Bible seriously. Or would be, if intelligent life existed on this planet.
Most god botherers wil be happy to tell you that the early part of the bible was written for simple people, and this does not contradict the existence of god.
But the inconsistencies and absurdities in scripture are just too many to have any kind of coherence. WTF am I supposed to believe here. How the hell do I glearn from these pages how I should act and deport myslef in the world? Who can tell?

But the most absurd is the one I posted above, and it relates to an age old question; is god good because he does good things, or are things good because god does them.
The fact that god felt it necessary to murder his own "son", or himself, seems to suggest that he is "sacrificing" something to an order of morality which is higher than himself. An appeal to a higher order than god.

Sacrifice itself is inherently meaningless. It relies on the belief of a idea which is older than god; the idea of the limited good. Its karmic in that some harm has to come to one thing in order that good can come to something else. So that some form of payment has to be made. Greeks were good at this slyly giving god the best bits of a kill (all the bit that humans don't like to eat!), they would burn bits of a carcass such as gall bladder, pancreas, and other "sweetmeats" that the belief system held were only edible to gods.
The idea of sacrifice is entrenched in our culture, and has helped many a regime send off their boys to die in fruitless wars.
User avatar
Jack D Ripper
Posts: 610
Joined: September 30th, 2020, 10:30 pm
Location: Burpelson Air Force Base
Contact:

Re: Proof there is no God

Post by Jack D Ripper »

Fanman wrote: October 21st, 2020, 2:28 am Jack D Ripper,
What one often finds, though, is religious believers attributing every good thing to God, as God is often regarded as the maker of everything, but then inconsistently refusing to blame God for the bad things, as if those things were somehow beyond God's control. The inconsistencies, though, do not typically end there, as the above post illustrates.
Are you saying that if there was a God, he/she is only responsible for what is bad/evil in the world, that what is good cannot be attributed to him/her?

No. I am not sure why you are thinking that, given what I stated in the post to which you are replying, where, in response to your question:

"There are good things that have happened to me as well. If there was a God, wouldn’t he also be responsible for those things?"

I responded with:

"Of course."

viewtopic.php?p=370096#p370092

Fanman wrote: October 21st, 2020, 2:28 am
I mean, it does not seem logical to me, to claim that in a world where both good and evil exist, that the deity who created it is purely evil, and/or incapable of good. How could that possibly be the case, when good exists in abundance?

Again, reread the post above. Especially these parts:

Jack D Ripper wrote: October 20th, 2020, 9:43 pm
Fanman wrote: October 20th, 2020, 3:42 pm...


There are good things that have happened to me as well. If there was a God, wouldn’t he also be responsible for those things?
...
Of course. Bringing up that would be relevant if you found someone seriously claiming that there is an omnipotent, omniscient, perfectly evil being. What happens in the world is not consistent with such an idea. Just like what happens in the world is not consistent with there being an omnipotent, omniscient, omnibenevolent being. So we are equally justified in claiming that neither such being exists.

...

One can pretend that there is no inconsistency by pretending that all of the bad things that happen are really good. Aside from that being merely pretend, the same would apply equally well to pretending that all of the good things that happen are really bad, in service of pretending that an omnipotent, omniscient, perfectly evil being exists. That would be equally justified. Which is to say, it would be equally inaccurate.


If there were an omniscient, omnipotent being, it would be responsible for everything, because everything would be within its control. Since there is a mix of good and bad in the world, it could not be omnibenevolent, nor could it be perfectly evil. Both ideas are equally inaccurate (as stated in the post to which you are responding).
"A wise man ... proportions his belief to the evidence." - David Hume
User avatar
Jack D Ripper
Posts: 610
Joined: September 30th, 2020, 10:30 pm
Location: Burpelson Air Force Base
Contact:

Re: Proof there is no God

Post by Jack D Ripper »

Count Lucanor wrote: October 20th, 2020, 11:21 pm
Jack D Ripper wrote: October 9th, 2020, 9:56 pm This isn’t a new proof, but what follows the proof is what is important.

In this thread, by “God” (with a capital “G”) I mean a being that is omniscient (all knowing), omnipotent (all powerful), and omnibenevolent (all good). I am not presently interested in the issue of whether some other god (notice, small “g”) exists, such as whether Zeus exists or not; Zeus can be the subject of another thread, if someone wishes to discuss him.
What believers in a “God” (with a capital “G”) will often do to bypass the proofs against their deity is to transform the inquiry, so that instead of proving that there's no god, you are required to prove that there isn't any god. God with capital “G” becomes one of the many possibilities within a set (the any god set). Of course, "any" god is an open set, a variable that can be filled with any description at convenience, and whenever an entity with a particular description is disproved, they can move the pole and say "well, my god does not fit exactly that description, there's something more to it (usually something mysterious and ineffable) so you have not disproved it". It becomes a moving target, from one of possibility of godness to another, within the any god set. You can't never disprove the set as a whole. And once they have made sure you cannot hit the moving target, then they'll announce you lost the bid and proceed to assert the existence of their God with capital "G", which is somewhere within the any god set, they just will never point at it with precision. Pure sophistry.

Yes, you have a good appreciation for what is done. After moving the goalposts, when the argument is over, they revert back to a version of god that has been disproven and believe in it anyway.
"A wise man ... proportions his belief to the evidence." - David Hume
User avatar
Jack D Ripper
Posts: 610
Joined: September 30th, 2020, 10:30 pm
Location: Burpelson Air Force Base
Contact:

Re: Proof there is no God

Post by Jack D Ripper »

Sculptor1 wrote: October 21st, 2020, 4:17 am
Most god botherers wil be happy to tell you that the early part of the bible was written for simple people, and this does not contradict the existence of god.
But the inconsistencies and absurdities in scripture are just too many to have any kind of coherence. WTF am I supposed to believe here. How the hell do I glearn from these pages how I should act and deport myslef in the world? Who can tell?

Well, obviously (Exodus 22:18, KJV):

18 Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live.

That is the sort of thing the "good book" tells you to do. It does not make any sense as a metaphor, so one is left with taking it literally, and it is pretty clear the types of activities that this god character approves of. You are supposed to be a lunatic who yearns for the dark ages.

If you want a long response to your question:

https://www.landoverbaptist.org

Sculptor1 wrote: October 21st, 2020, 4:17 am
But the most absurd is the one I posted above, and it relates to an age old question; is god good because he does good things, or are things good because god does them.
The fact that god felt it necessary to murder his own "son", or himself, seems to suggest that he is "sacrificing" something to an order of morality which is higher than himself. An appeal to a higher order than god.

Sacrifice itself is inherently meaningless. It relies on the belief of a idea which is older than god; the idea of the limited good. Its karmic in that some harm has to come to one thing in order that good can come to something else. So that some form of payment has to be made. Greeks were good at this slyly giving god the best bits of a kill (all the bit that humans don't like to eat!), they would burn bits of a carcass such as gall bladder, pancreas, and other "sweetmeats" that the belief system held were only edible to gods.
The idea of sacrifice is entrenched in our culture, and has helped many a regime send off their boys to die in fruitless wars.
Evidently, god must appease himself, which is, as you indicate, about as senseless as one can get. That is one crazy, messed-up deity.

And, yes, you are right that the idea of a sacrifice inherently involves the idea of the limited good, which makes it incompatible with an omnipotent, omniscient, omnibenevolent being.
"A wise man ... proportions his belief to the evidence." - David Hume
Fanman
Posts: 3258
Joined: December 14th, 2011, 9:42 am

Re: Proof there is no God

Post by Fanman »

Jack D Ripper,
If there were an omniscient, omnipotent being, it would be responsible for everything, because everything would be within its control. Since there is a mix of good and bad in the world, it could not be omnibenevolent, nor could it be perfectly evil. Both ideas are equally inaccurate (as stated in the post to which you are responding).
Perhaps look at things this way. An omnibenevolent being has created human beings with autonomy. Some of those humans have chosen to be/do evil. If the omnibenevolent being wants to rid the world of them, how could it possibly do so without itself doing making something bad/evil happen to them?

Just out of interest.
Theists believe, agnostics ponder and atheists analyse. A little bit of each should get us the right answer.
User avatar
Jack D Ripper
Posts: 610
Joined: September 30th, 2020, 10:30 pm
Location: Burpelson Air Force Base
Contact:

Re: Proof there is no God

Post by Jack D Ripper »

Fanman wrote: October 21st, 2020, 12:17 pm Jack D Ripper,
If there were an omniscient, omnipotent being, it would be responsible for everything, because everything would be within its control. Since there is a mix of good and bad in the world, it could not be omnibenevolent, nor could it be perfectly evil. Both ideas are equally inaccurate (as stated in the post to which you are responding).
Perhaps look at things this way. An omnibenevolent being has created human beings with autonomy. Some of those humans have chosen to be/do evil. If the omnibenevolent being wants to rid the world of them, how could it possibly do so without itself doing making something bad/evil happen to them?

Just out of interest.
You are now asking something that was answered in the opening post. The part that deals with "free will". I recommend that you take a look at it. I am tempted to just quote myself from there, but, if you promise to reread it, I will give you a new response to the specific remarks you make.

This God could have decided to only make good human beings instead of bad ones. Or not make any human beings at all. But we can set those aside and pretend that neither of those is the case. God could humanely kill them, or, if that seems too drastic for your sensibilities, God could make them ineffectual. So that when they try to do evil, they fail. Thus, all would-be murderers would be only attempted murderers. The same idea would apply to all other cases, down to the smallest evil that one could do. An omniscient and omnipotent being would have no difficulty in doing this effortlessly.

Many theists object to such a thing, even though the majority of them (in the U.S. at least) believe that their god interferes regularly in human affairs, as sited in this post:

viewtopic.php?f=4&t=16909&start=225#p369950

But they also pretend that it would somehow be difficult for their god to manage such a task, which is absurd if the god is omniscient and omnipotent. Getting tired or fatigued means that a being is not omnipotent. Everything such a being does would be effortless, and keeping track of everything is no difficulty for an omniscient being. What they do is essentially say that their god lacks those qualities when they say it would be too difficult for their god to manage.

Also, of course, as already stated, if this god did not want to manage such a world, it need not make such a world, or could eliminate such a world, rather than choose to have a world with evil. It is funny how many believers pretend to value personal responsibility, but imagine that god is not responsible for god's actions.
"A wise man ... proportions his belief to the evidence." - David Hume
creation
Posts: 1172
Joined: November 22nd, 2019, 10:39 pm

Re: Proof there is no God

Post by creation »

Terrapin Station wrote: October 17th, 2020, 7:56 pm
creation wrote: October 17th, 2020, 7:39 pm ONCE AGAIN you use words as though they have ONE definition ONLY, and that you are the beholder of that ONE and ONLY definition.
There's a difference between "just one definition" and "any arbitrary crap."
And do not forget that the ONE definition, which you hold ONLY, is perceived, by some, as just 'any arbitrary crap'.

In fact, it could be argued that your ONE definition ONLY stance is just 'arbitrary crap'.

If what you insist is the one and only definition, but which is not in agreement, then, as can be CLEARLY SEEN here, could well, literally, be just 'arbitrary crap'.
creation
Posts: 1172
Joined: November 22nd, 2019, 10:39 pm

Re: Proof there is no God

Post by creation »

Fanman wrote: October 18th, 2020, 6:38 am creation,
One would have to CLEARLY KNOW what 'God' is to be able to say and confirm if they 'need' God for anything or not.

Do 'you' CLEARLY KNOW what 'God' IS, yet, or even CLEARLY KNOW the answer to the question, 'Who am 'I'?'

If yes, then great. But I would like to further clarify WHY you would say such a thing.

But if no, then HOW do 'you' KNOW that 'you' do NOT 'need' God for ANY thing?
True, and since I don’t, I cannot confirm whether I need him/her or not.
Why do you even ASSUME, and say, that God is a "him" or a "her"?

When, and if, you ever learn what God is EXACTLY, then you will realize, SEE, and UNDERSTAND, just how ridiculous it was to ASSUME, and/or say, "God is a he (or a her)".
Fanman wrote: October 18th, 2020, 6:38 am However, based upon what I do know, the reason that I say that I don’t need God, is ironically due to what I don’t know.
Okay. Sounds very counter intuitive, but maybe you are able to explain this in more thorough detail?
Fanman wrote: October 18th, 2020, 6:38 am No, I don’t know what God is. I know myself to the degree that I am aware of the kind of person that I am.
But knowing the "person" that 'you' are, to some degree, does not provide the actual answer to the question 'Who am 'I'?'
Fanman wrote: October 18th, 2020, 6:38 am I know what I like and what I don’t like, and I know what I can and cannot do.
Are you 100% absolutely sure of this?

Do these 'likes' and 'do not likes' change? Does what you 'can do' and 'can not do' change?

If yes to both of these clarifying, then do you really KNOW thy 'self'?
Fanman wrote: October 18th, 2020, 6:38 am I do not know my full potential, I don’t think that anyone does, so in answer to the question “who am I?” I would say, I don’t fully know, but I have an idea.
Okay. And what is that idea?

By the way, not thinking that ANY one knows their full potential does NOT mean that there is NO one who KNOWS their full potential. That is; once one KNOWS the answer to the question 'Who am 'I'?', then KNOWING that One's FULL POTENTIAL also becomes KNOWN.
creation
Posts: 1172
Joined: November 22nd, 2019, 10:39 pm

Re: Proof there is no God

Post by creation »

Sculptor1 wrote: October 18th, 2020, 8:40 am
creation wrote: October 17th, 2020, 7:55 pm

I have already explained this previously:

'God', in the visible sense, is the physical Universe, Itself.
But there is already a good word for that: Universe.
You OBVIOUSLY still have quite a lot more to learn, and understand, in regards to what I am actually saying and pointing out.

When, and if, you stop making assumptions and start asking clarifying questions, then only then will you begin to start learning, and understanding. But one has to have some interest in learning more before they even begin to start understanding more.
Sculptor1 wrote: October 18th, 2020, 8:40 amI know the universe exists.
Okay. You may well, but do you actually yet know and understand what the Universe is, and how it works? If no, then you do actually have some more learning to do.

Sculptor1 wrote: October 18th, 2020, 8:40 am

'God', in the non visible sense, is the Mind, Itself. Which, contrary to popular belief, there is One, only.
If there is only one mind then why don't you agree with what I say
Because either what you say, or i say, is false, wrong, and/or incorrect.

You will also have to learn how the Mind and the brain actually work before you could even begin to comprehend and understand this fact. .

Sculptor1 wrote: October 18th, 2020, 8:40 am
But why would you even think that this was being asked for?
Because that is EXACTLY what you asked for.
Lol You could not be MORE WRONG here.
Sculptor1 wrote: October 18th, 2020, 8:40 am

I said; 'If you do not want to explain specifically nor in detail what you actually mean, then that is fine', with me.
I've told you twice already.
You have only told what you think or believe is being asked for.

You are NOT explaining what I have been actually asking for. And, you have NEVER even clarified what it is that I am actually asking for, so you will just continue to make the wrong assumption, which you are here now.
Sculptor1 wrote: October 18th, 2020, 8:40 am

By the way, besides explaining specifically or in detail you could have just provided a very short list of a few things, which you class as "good" and "evil". After all it was 'you', "sculptor1", who did make the claim that; "good and evil do not exist". You even wanted this to be made well and truly known by your use of the words, "Let me tell you," good and evil do not exist.
Here's a good example.
**** is evil. but it is good for plants.
poisonous alkaloids are evil to eat; but they also are good for plants since they stop the plants being eaten.
I could go on all day.
Good is that which pleases man; evil is that which pleases him not.
So, just as I have been pointing out, you claim that good and evil do not exist, but then you go to list what think or believe is good and evil, to you.
Sculptor1 wrote: October 18th, 2020, 8:40 am



In relation to 'what', exactly?
QED
Your non answer here, to this extremely very simple and very straightforward clarifying question, some conclude means that you are truly incapable of clarity, with me, which is the only thing you are showing and proving here, now.
Sculptor1 wrote: October 18th, 2020, 8:40 am

'you' are the self-confessed "educator" here, so 'educate' us.
You'll have to start reading properly first.
Reading 'what' properly?

What, exactly, do you think or believe I am not reading properly? And will you provide some examples?

If no, then why not?
creation
Posts: 1172
Joined: November 22nd, 2019, 10:39 pm

Re: Proof there is no God

Post by creation »

Terrapin Station wrote: October 18th, 2020, 8:48 am
creation wrote: October 17th, 2020, 9:47 pm
Quoting the bit that wasn't just useless $hitposting per what I just described as your norm.
I have absolutely no idea what this is referring to, let alone what it actually means.
creation
Posts: 1172
Joined: November 22nd, 2019, 10:39 pm

Re: Proof there is no God

Post by creation »

Jack D Ripper wrote: October 18th, 2020, 5:00 pm
Terrapin Station wrote: October 17th, 2020, 7:02 pm

I don't mean to suggest that statements are supposed to be about anything.

They ARE about whatever they're about per the particular usages in question.

Regarding the problem of evil, judging from the responses one gets from those who believe in an omnipotent, omniscient, omnibenevolent being, the term "omnibenevolent", to them, has no meaning whatsoever.
'Generalizing' people, based on SOME responses you get, will NEVER help you to SEE and UNDERSTAND better, nor more.

By the way, there is NO actual 'problem of evil', to me. Unless, of course, some one makes one, and then puts it forward. Until then I see ABSOLUTELY NO problem at all here.

Jack D Ripper wrote: October 18th, 2020, 5:00 pm We can analyze the basic ideas of the three characteristics, but without the "omni-" prefix, in a person, to get an idea of how the terms work. If we look at, say, my actions, we may observe that, if there is a house on fire on the other side of town, while I am on this side of town, I do not call the fire department. The reason being, I do not know about it (I am not omniscient). But if I am on the other side of town and see the fire, then I do not put it out, but I call the fire department. The reason for me not putting out the fire is that I am unable to (I am not omnipotent). I do, however, call the fire department, because that is something I can do (assuming I have my phone with me, there is cell reception, etc.), and I am motivated to do it because I am good (it does not take much goodness to do that, but, evidently, the god of many people lacks even this low level of good, since it does nothing; the fire department is not called by any gods). Not doing anything would normally be regarded as a bad thing, unless, of course, one was unable to do anything. But that is what everyone's god is going: Nothing at all. The fire burns, and their god does not put it out and it does not even call the fire department, if it is too impotent to put out the fire by itself. It lets the fire burn.

If someone now pretends, that this is because their god wants to teach people something, then I should probably not call the fire department either, so that people will learn the lesson that that god is teaching. I should not spoil god's educational plans for others, should I? So, evidently, the right thing to do, then, is to let the fire burn and do nothing, as one is then following the example of the most wise being there is. That is essentially the result of the thinking that this is somehow a lesson from their god, that one should do nothing to prevent bad things from happening, so the lesson from this god will be learned.

In other contexts (i.e., when not discussing the problem of evil), believers often imagine that their god is very active in their affairs:
Overall, about half of Americans (48%) say that God or another higher power directly determines what happens in their lives all or most of the time. An additional 18% say God or some other higher power determines what happens to them “just some of the time.”

...

Nearly eight-in-ten U.S. adults think God or a higher power has protected them, and two-thirds say they have been rewarded by the Almighty.

....

When asked additional questions about what they believe God or another higher power in the universe is like, those who believe in God as described in the Bible and those who believe in another kind of higher power or spiritual force express substantially different views. Simply put, those who believe in the God of the Bible tend to perceive a more powerful, knowing, benevolent and active deity.

For instance, nearly all adults who say they believe in the God of the Bible say they think God loves all people regardless of their faults, and that God has protected them. More than nine-in-ten people who believe in the biblical God envisage a deity who knows everything that goes on in the world, and nearly nine-in-ten say God has rewarded them, and has the power to direct or change everything that happens in the world.

Far fewer people who believe in some other higher power or spiritual force (but not the God of the Bible) ascribe these attributes and actions to that higher power. Still, even among this group, half or more say they believe another higher power in the universe loves all people (69%), is omniscient (53%), has protected them (68%) and rewarded them (53%).

...
https://www.pewforum.org/2018/04/25/whe ... they-mean/

It is funny how so many believers in God (or a "higher power") regard God (or a "higher power") as very active in the world, and yet there are so many things that go badly, where people and animals suffer terribly, as if there were no being watching over them, as if there were no being that is directing what happens.

Basically, believers do not seem to keep their story straight, as most of them, in the U.S., at least, believe that this being is very active in managing human affairs, and yet is strangely absent in countless examples where things go horribly bad.
creation
Posts: 1172
Joined: November 22nd, 2019, 10:39 pm

Re: Proof there is no God

Post by creation »

Jack D Ripper wrote: October 18th, 2020, 7:59 pm
Sculptor1 wrote: October 18th, 2020, 8:40 am
But there is already a good word for that: Universe. I know the universe exists.

If there is only one mind then why don't you agree with what I say?

Aside from what you say, it also does not explain what God is.
What I said explains God PERFECTLY, and in the most SIMPLEST terms possible.

Just because 'you' and some 'others' do NOT read the ACTUAL words that I use, without misinterpreting them or without taking them out of context, then that does NOT mean that what I SAY "does not explain what God is".

Look, to be able to see FULLY and CLEARLY then one can NOT be a 'believer'. 'you' are a BELIEVER, as evidenced in your writings, and therefore 'you' can NOT YET see CLEARLY, nor FULLY.
Jack D Ripper wrote: October 18th, 2020, 7:59 pm That there is one mind requires a good deal of explanation to even be coherent, and much more to give us any reason to believe it is true.
But you have to STOP 'believing' in order to be ABLE TO SEE CLEARLY.

Even the way you read what I wrote here was blurred AND distorted by your inability to CLEARLY SEE here. You have taken just this tiny snippet out of context and MISINTERPRETED IT. Your ASSUMPTION that "there is one mind" requires a good deal of explanation to even be 'coherent' just SHOWS your lack of ability to understand, and REASON.
Jack D Ripper wrote: October 18th, 2020, 7:59 pm Not only do we have no reason to believe the universe has (or is) a mind,
LOL Just this tiny INTERPRETATION could not be MORE WRONG. This could not be further from what I actually said, let alone what I actually MEANT. You have taken what I ACTUALLY said so far out of context, then the effort to bring it back to thee Truth would hardly be worth it now. This is better left as just MORE EVIDENCE AND PROOF of how the brain, with its BELIEF-SYSTEM, actually works.
Jack D Ripper wrote: October 18th, 2020, 7:59 pm we have no reason to believe it has any of the three qualities listed in the opening post. The universe, as a whole, appears to be completely stupid, and completely uncaring (which means, among other things, that it is not good).
Things only appear this way to those who believe or expect the Universe should revolve around their tiny little 'self'.

So, what has the Universe, Itself, actually done, which has made poor little 'you' feel as though the Universe does not care about 'you'?

Are things so hard, and complicated, for 'you', that you feel unwanted, unloved, or 'uncared' for?

Would you like more money, or maybe some (more?) nannies, butlers, or slaves to wait over you and serve you more fully?

What is so "hard" in 'your life', which has made you feel "completely UNCARED' for?
Jack D Ripper wrote: October 18th, 2020, 7:59 pm Nor does the universe appear to be omnipotent. There are powerful forces in the universe, but that does not mean that the universe as a whole is powerful.
LOL Okay.

Here is ANOTHER, striking, PRIME EXAMPLE of BELIEFS as the most "brilliant".

Jack D Ripper wrote: October 18th, 2020, 7:59 pm But even if we say that the universe as a whole is powerful, that still does not mean that its power is unlimited:
If when YOU say that the Universe, as a whole, is powerful, and that still, to YOU, does NOT mean that the Universe's power is unlimited, then what does saying, 'unlimited power', actually mean, TO YOU?
Jack D Ripper wrote: October 18th, 2020, 7:59 pm
omnipotent

ADJECTIVE

1 (of a deity) having unlimited power.
https://www.lexico.com/definition/omnipotent

If his god does not have all of the properties listed in the opening post, then, as mentioned there (and several times since then), this thread is not about that god. Just like this thread is not about Zeus. Nothing posted in this thread proves that Zeus does not exist.
Will you PLEASE STOP mentioning and talking about ANY thing else other than the Thing/God with the three properties listed in the opening post.

What do you mean by "his god"?

If we want to use the definition; (of a deity) having unlimited power, then that is EXACTLY what I have been mentioning, talking about, AND referring to.

Now, if we want to LOOK AT and DISCUSS 'this', then let us continue.
creation
Posts: 1172
Joined: November 22nd, 2019, 10:39 pm

Re: Proof there is no God

Post by creation »

Jack D Ripper wrote: October 20th, 2020, 11:30 am
Fanman wrote: October 20th, 2020, 9:01 am Jack D Ripper,



As a former theist that believed in the Christian God, I think that a Christian would simply argue that the reason you are so antithetical towards God, in terms of your apparent reasoning at least. Is due to the fact that you don’t have a relationship with him. You make some valid points in reference to the problem of evil, but if a being is omniscient including of the future, how can we as mortals truly scrutinise his actions when we can at most see 5 years into the future by way of prediction, not true foresight.

Your argument is strong, but the Christian, based upon their own experiences and other people's testimonies, will tell you the great things that God has done in their lives. Granted, we have no valid reason to assent to their claim(s). But the fact that there is an alternative, diametric view to yours, should at least cause you leave the door slightly open to the possibility that the state of the world does not reflect God’s character, but the nature of autonomous human-beings. If we blame God for everything that can be referred to as bad or evil, just because he has the power to do otherwise, do we not take away from the power of mankind to do good, and our accountability? In the sense that, apart from natural disasters, we have made our own beds? And the rods that beat our backs, are they not of our own making?

This is why I hesistate to blame God for the problem of evil, because if he exists as he is purported to, we cannot fathom the reasons why such a being would allows evil to occur in a world of both good and evil, the best we can do is speculate by way of reason. I mean, he supposedly sent Jesus Christ into this world to be a sacrifice for the sins that he never even committed, so as to defer mankind's judgement. Why would a being that is capable of allowing something that he treasured (his own son), to be destroyed, even temporarily, be incapable of doing good?

Two things.

First, nothing in the future can undo the bad things that happen now.
Are you ABSOLUTELY SURE that "NOTHING, in the future," can undo the bad things that happen now.

If you are, then you REALLY are a VERY CLOSED individual.
Jack D Ripper wrote: October 20th, 2020, 11:30 am So no matter what good things happen in the future, it does not make things okay now.
This is yet ANOTHER example of a very CLOSED view and perspective of things.
Jack D Ripper wrote: October 20th, 2020, 11:30 am I am reminded of a film I saw many years ago regarding medical ethics, where someone who was burned over most of his body, was being kept alive, even though the person was in agony, because they could not give him enough pain killers to stop the pain as a sufficient dose of the pain killers for that would kill him (they no longer do things that way, I am told; now, they used medically induced comas for such patients, as they do not wish to torture people if they can keep them alive without torture). He was constantly begging them to kill him, to put him out of his torment. Eventually, he healed and left the hospital. He later on met a woman and got married, and was happy with his life at that point. However, when he was asked if that meant that his previous suffering was worth it, he said, no, they should have killed him. That nothing could possibly make up for what he endured. Of course, at that point in time, he had no reason to kill himself, as his life at that point was good. But the totality of his life wasn't.


Good things in the future do not undo bad things now.
Well this is an OBVIOUS FACT.

What is also an OBVIOUSLY FACT is that ONLY 'that' which undoes, so called, "bad things" is what CAN undo "bad things".
Jack D Ripper wrote: October 20th, 2020, 11:30 am So it is just BS nonsense to say that a good plan makes up for it. Especially since an omniscient, omnipotent being could just make the thing it wanted without using bad things to achieve those things.
You OBVIOUSLY still have absolutely NO idea how things actually work here, YET.
Jack D Ripper wrote: October 20th, 2020, 11:30 am We use means to achieve ends because we cannot directly achieve our ends. But a being that is claimed by many to make something out of nothing
LOL Who claims that a being makes something out of nothing?
Jack D Ripper wrote: October 20th, 2020, 11:30 am does not need to use means to ends; it can directly achieve its ends. So god using evil to achieve god's ends means god is evil.
LOL If this is what this means, TO YOU, then so be it.

Jack D Ripper wrote: October 20th, 2020, 11:30 am Second, the Jesus story shows god in that story to be evil.
Why do you write an opening post with explicit explanations about big 'G' and small 'g', and then seemingly go against that explanation?

Are we discussing god with small 'g' or God with big 'G'?

Also, have you ever considered that the story, which has been relayed to you, and the one which you accept is being told to you, has been misinterpret, or conveyed, WRONGLY, at all?
Jack D Ripper wrote: October 20th, 2020, 11:30 am Instead of just deciding "to defer mankind's judgement", god decides that it is better to punish a supposedly innocent being.
Again, what is with the small 'g' here?

Do you write "god" with small 'g' purposely here now?
Jack D Ripper wrote: October 20th, 2020, 11:30 am Remember, the reason why a punishment is required is because god requires it.
What evidence do you have that some other god (notice, small "g") - besides the God/Being, which is omniscient (all knowing), omnipotent (all powerful), and omnibenevolent (all good) - "requires" 'punishment'.

From what I have observed 'punishment', itself, is only a, supposed, "requirement" by adult human beings and one handed out by adult human beings. I am not sure where you are getting your information from but a lot of it appears to be very false, wrong, and/or incorrect.
Jack D Ripper wrote: October 20th, 2020, 11:30 am God could instead simply not require that anyone be punished.
But God does NOT require that anyone be punished. In fact, God guides and instructs otherwise.

To me, the only ones that require that anyone be punished is adult human beings.
Jack D Ripper wrote: October 20th, 2020, 11:30 am Punishing an innocent individual makes god a worse being than just deferring judgement.
You appear to really enjoy talking about 'god' (notice, small "g") when you specifically mentioned in YOUR opening post that 'god' (small "g") is the one which to not talk about here, in this thread.
Jack D Ripper wrote: October 20th, 2020, 11:30 am
The whole basis of Christianity is ridiculous and obscene.
If you say so, then it must be so, correct?
Jack D Ripper wrote: October 20th, 2020, 11:30 am What is remarkable is that people are so accustomed to the story that they do not think about its meaning, about what it is saying, about what an evil being that god must be to do such a thing.
And some people do not even think at 'its' meaning in the words they, themselves, use, and say.
Jack D Ripper wrote: October 20th, 2020, 11:30 am But that is the way with a lot of religious stories; people do not think about them in the same way that they think about other stories; they do not properly think about the religious stories at all.
If you say so, then this would be further "proof" that your already gained conclusion is more true and correct, right?
Jack D Ripper wrote: October 20th, 2020, 11:30 am This is why they are ready to believe things like Mary being a virgin while pregnant, because some guy supposedly has a dream in which that is claimed by angels, but would not believe the same story if I told them that my wife was pregnant when we got married, but was a virgin, and I knew this because angels told me this in a dream. When the story is brought into the modern world like that, even most of the people foolish enough to believe the ancient story see how idiotic the story is.
When the story is told, with the misconceptions that you have here, then obviously the REAL and True story is NOT being expressed.
Jack D Ripper wrote: October 20th, 2020, 11:30 am (Not that it matters for the hypothetical above, but my wife was not pregnant when we got married. Indeed, I do not need to have a wife at all for the point to be made.)
Then expressly saying, "my wife was not pregnant when we got married", is VERY misleading, which only leads to misconceptions being made, which then lends itself to misinterpretations appearing and things being completely taken out of context.
creation
Posts: 1172
Joined: November 22nd, 2019, 10:39 pm

Re: Proof there is no God

Post by creation »

Jack D Ripper wrote: October 20th, 2020, 5:13 pm
Sculptor1 wrote: October 20th, 2020, 1:59 pm

LOL
The central plank of the Christian delusion is incoherent babble.

If God is God then to whom does he have to appeal for justice?
When one considers the start in the Bible, how could it go any other way?
How 'it' could, can, and does, go any other way is, just simply, because of 'interpretation', itself.

The reason you are still so confused is just because of YOUR own 'interpretation'.
Jack D Ripper wrote: October 20th, 2020, 5:13 pm With Genesis chapters 1 & 2, we have light before there is a source of light,
Yes this is right. This happens because of what the word 'light' here ACTUALLY is referring to.
Jack D Ripper wrote: October 20th, 2020, 5:13 pm and we have the two stories of creation, one right after the other, where the order of things being created is changed from one to the next.
Yes this is EXACTLY right also.
Jack D Ripper wrote: October 20th, 2020, 5:13 pm So the BIble is inconsistent before the end of the first two chapters.
This is YOUR conclusion, which is just based solely on YOUR OWN 'assumptions' and 'interpretations'.

From the True and RIGHT perspective there is NO 'inconsistencies' at all.
Jack D Ripper wrote: October 20th, 2020, 5:13 pm But it gets even more interesting in Genesis 2 & 3, with the story of the garden of Eden, where Adam and Eve are expected by god to not eat of the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, which is to say, god expects them to know that it is "evil" to disobey god before they have the knowledge of good and evil.
Well that is ONE 'interpretation'.
Jack D Ripper wrote: October 20th, 2020, 5:13 pm At that point, everyone should know the story is batshit crazy, so by the time one gets to the stuff about Jesus, one should have a pretty good idea that it isn't going to make any sense either.
This is a great point. If one starts of with what is OBVIOUSLY a, so called, "bat **** crazy" 'interpretation', then this can lead to the rest not making any sense either.
Jack D Ripper wrote: October 20th, 2020, 5:13 pm Really, with god expecting people to know what is good and evil before they can know what is good and evil shows either that god is evil, willfully setting them up to fail, or is incredibly stupid or just plain crazy.
Some might recognize, and say, that someone starting a thread stating that they are NOT interested in some 'god' (with a small 'g') but then who goes on, willfully, talking constantly about 'god' in their own thread is incredibly stupid, or just plain crazy.
Jack D Ripper wrote: October 20th, 2020, 5:13 pm Yeah, that is what people worship. That is their idea of something good and wise and omniscient. It would be difficult to parody such a ridiculous and insane story. It already reads like an overdone parody of something.

Of course, there is a reason why I did not start the thread with any mention of the Bible. What is entailed there for the believers is mere inconsistency. With the Bible, things become a completely incoherent mess. It is amazing that any adult takes the Bible seriously. Or would be, if intelligent life existed on this planet.
Okay.
User avatar
Jack D Ripper
Posts: 610
Joined: September 30th, 2020, 10:30 pm
Location: Burpelson Air Force Base
Contact:

Re: Proof there is no God

Post by Jack D Ripper »

creation wrote: October 23rd, 2020, 9:34 pm
Jack D Ripper wrote: October 20th, 2020, 11:30 am ...
First, nothing in the future can undo the bad things that happen now.
Are you ABSOLUTELY SURE that "NOTHING, in the future," can undo the bad things that happen now.

If you are, then you REALLY are a VERY CLOSED individual.
...
Jack D Ripper wrote: October 20th, 2020, 11:30 am...

Good things in the future do not undo bad things now.
Well this is an OBVIOUS FACT.

...
You cannot keep your story straight for very long, can you?

I say the same thing twice, and once you regard it as a closed-minded bit of nonsense, and the next time I say it, you regard it as an "OBVIOUS FACT".

Well, one of the times you were right. But since you contradict yourself, everyone of sense knows that you literally do not know what you are talking about.
"A wise man ... proportions his belief to the evidence." - David Hume
Post Reply

Return to “Philosophy of Religion, Theism and Mythology”

2023/2024 Philosophy Books of the Month

Entanglement - Quantum and Otherwise

Entanglement - Quantum and Otherwise
by John K Danenbarger
January 2023

Mark Victor Hansen, Relentless: Wisdom Behind the Incomparable Chicken Soup for the Soul

Mark Victor Hansen, Relentless: Wisdom Behind the Incomparable Chicken Soup for the Soul
by Mitzi Perdue
February 2023

Rediscovering the Wisdom of Human Nature: How Civilization Destroys Happiness

Rediscovering the Wisdom of Human Nature: How Civilization Destroys Happiness
by Chet Shupe
March 2023

The Unfakeable Code®

The Unfakeable Code®
by Tony Jeton Selimi
April 2023

The Book: On the Taboo Against Knowing Who You Are

The Book: On the Taboo Against Knowing Who You Are
by Alan Watts
May 2023

Killing Abel

Killing Abel
by Michael Tieman
June 2023

Reconfigurement: Reconfiguring Your Life at Any Stage and Planning Ahead

Reconfigurement: Reconfiguring Your Life at Any Stage and Planning Ahead
by E. Alan Fleischauer
July 2023

First Survivor: The Impossible Childhood Cancer Breakthrough

First Survivor: The Impossible Childhood Cancer Breakthrough
by Mark Unger
August 2023

Predictably Irrational

Predictably Irrational
by Dan Ariely
September 2023

Artwords

Artwords
by Beatriz M. Robles
November 2023

Fireproof Happiness: Extinguishing Anxiety & Igniting Hope

Fireproof Happiness: Extinguishing Anxiety & Igniting Hope
by Dr. Randy Ross
December 2023

Beyond the Golden Door: Seeing the American Dream Through an Immigrant's Eyes

Beyond the Golden Door: Seeing the American Dream Through an Immigrant's Eyes
by Ali Master
February 2024

2022 Philosophy Books of the Month

Emotional Intelligence At Work

Emotional Intelligence At Work
by Richard M Contino & Penelope J Holt
January 2022

Free Will, Do You Have It?

Free Will, Do You Have It?
by Albertus Kral
February 2022

My Enemy in Vietnam

My Enemy in Vietnam
by Billy Springer
March 2022

2X2 on the Ark

2X2 on the Ark
by Mary J Giuffra, PhD
April 2022

The Maestro Monologue

The Maestro Monologue
by Rob White
May 2022

What Makes America Great

What Makes America Great
by Bob Dowell
June 2022

The Truth Is Beyond Belief!

The Truth Is Beyond Belief!
by Jerry Durr
July 2022

Living in Color

Living in Color
by Mike Murphy
August 2022 (tentative)

The Not So Great American Novel

The Not So Great American Novel
by James E Doucette
September 2022

Mary Jane Whiteley Coggeshall, Hicksite Quaker, Iowa/National Suffragette And Her Speeches

Mary Jane Whiteley Coggeshall, Hicksite Quaker, Iowa/National Suffragette And Her Speeches
by John N. (Jake) Ferris
October 2022

In It Together: The Beautiful Struggle Uniting Us All

In It Together: The Beautiful Struggle Uniting Us All
by Eckhart Aurelius Hughes
November 2022

The Smartest Person in the Room: The Root Cause and New Solution for Cybersecurity

The Smartest Person in the Room
by Christian Espinosa
December 2022

2021 Philosophy Books of the Month

The Biblical Clock: The Untold Secrets Linking the Universe and Humanity with God's Plan

The Biblical Clock
by Daniel Friedmann
March 2021

Wilderness Cry: A Scientific and Philosophical Approach to Understanding God and the Universe

Wilderness Cry
by Dr. Hilary L Hunt M.D.
April 2021

Fear Not, Dream Big, & Execute: Tools To Spark Your Dream And Ignite Your Follow-Through

Fear Not, Dream Big, & Execute
by Jeff Meyer
May 2021

Surviving the Business of Healthcare: Knowledge is Power

Surviving the Business of Healthcare
by Barbara Galutia Regis M.S. PA-C
June 2021

Winning the War on Cancer: The Epic Journey Towards a Natural Cure

Winning the War on Cancer
by Sylvie Beljanski
July 2021

Defining Moments of a Free Man from a Black Stream

Defining Moments of a Free Man from a Black Stream
by Dr Frank L Douglas
August 2021

If Life Stinks, Get Your Head Outta Your Buts

If Life Stinks, Get Your Head Outta Your Buts
by Mark L. Wdowiak
September 2021

The Preppers Medical Handbook

The Preppers Medical Handbook
by Dr. William W Forgey M.D.
October 2021

Natural Relief for Anxiety and Stress: A Practical Guide

Natural Relief for Anxiety and Stress
by Dr. Gustavo Kinrys, MD
November 2021

Dream For Peace: An Ambassador Memoir

Dream For Peace
by Dr. Ghoulem Berrah
December 2021