400 years Since the myth of the Pilgrim Fathers began

Discuss philosophical questions regarding theism (and atheism), and discuss religion as it relates to philosophy. This includes any philosophical discussions that happen to be about god, gods, or a 'higher power' or the belief of them. This also generally includes philosophical topics about organized or ritualistic mysticism or about organized, common or ritualistic beliefs in the existence of supernatural phenomenon.
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Sculptor1
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400 years Since the myth of the Pilgrim Fathers began

Post by Sculptor1 »

1620, the story goes that a group of beleagered people fled the evil mother land to avoid persecution.]What a load of BS. It is staggering how this myth of persecution persists as an a priori truth in school rooms across the USA.

The thing that characterised Britian in those days was a long and hard fought for reproachment between Protestants and Catholics whose conflict in the Reformation had been the cause of the death of millions of Europeans.

What England had to offer the multitude of religious sects was TOLERATION.
And it was exactly this "unacceptible toleration" that the so-called Pilgrim Fathers found so abhorent. They simply could not stand the latitudinariamism and broad acceptance of Catholics and other Protestant sects whom they felt were not worshipping god in quite the right way.
So they pissed off the American to pollute that fair land of "savages" with the "Good News".
The result was that they in their turn followed on from the activities of many other white settlers in wrecking the lifes of the indigenous people.

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Re: 400 years Since the myth of the Pilgrim Fathers began

Post by Ecurb »

As of 1620, it had been 8 long years since the English had burned any heretics at the stake. In 1608 they burned two non-trinitarians (horrors!). Also, Cromwell's genocidal persecution of the Catholics was 30 years on the future.

Perhaps, however, England was populated with unpleasant types in 1620, just like it is today. Can anyone blame the Pilgrims for wanting to escape the likes of our friend Sculptor?
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Re: 400 years Since the myth of the Pilgrim Fathers began

Post by Jack D Ripper »

Sculptor1 wrote: October 23rd, 2020, 11:13 am 1620, the story goes that a group of beleagered people fled the evil mother land to avoid persecution.]What a load of BS. It is staggering how this myth of persecution persists as an a priori truth in school rooms across the USA.

The thing that characterised Britian in those days was a long and hard fought for reproachment between Protestants and Catholics whose conflict in the Reformation had been the cause of the death of millions of Europeans.

What England had to offer the multitude of religious sects was TOLERATION.
And it was exactly this "unacceptible toleration" that the so-called Pilgrim Fathers found so abhorent. They simply could not stand the latitudinariamism and broad acceptance of Catholics and other Protestant sects whom they felt were not worshipping god in quite the right way.
So they pissed off the American to pollute that fair land of "savages" with the "Good News".
The result was that they in their turn followed on from the activities of many other white settlers in wrecking the lifes of the indigenous people.

https://www.mail.com/int/scitech/health ... ge-hero1-3
You are right on your main point, as the Pilgrams wanted their bigotry imposed upon others. As for religious toleration in England at that time, it left a lot to be desired. The last witch (Janet Horne) in the UK who was legally killed, occurred in 1727. So it is not exactly true that the British Isles were a bastion of religious freedom and tolerance in 1620.

If something happening in Scotland is "too remote" for your sensibilities, the "witch" Alice Molland was executed in England in 1684, still a long time after 1620.

In the 1700's, the great philosopher David Hume could not get a job teaching philosophy because of what was thought of his views on religion. (David Hume, by the way, today, is widely regarded as the greatest philosopher to write in English.) So the UK was still a bigoted and horrible place. Not that other places were not also horrible and bigoted at that time, but it is simply not true that the UK was a place of great tolerance. It was certainly not the worst place that one could have been at that time, but it was very far from idyllic.

As for wrecking the lives of others, that is what the history of humanity is all about. I am reminded of a show on PBS in which someone retraced the route of "Alexander the Great", in which it was revealed that in some places where he went, he is remembered as "Alexander the Butcher". What Alexander did was to approach cities which had never encountered him or his people before, and demand that they surrender or be taken over, to have the people killed or enslaved. As one might imagine, different cities reacted differently to this unknown army that approached them. But I am now digressing to something beyond the topic of this thread.
"A wise man ... proportions his belief to the evidence." - David Hume
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Re: 400 years Since the myth of the Pilgrim Fathers began

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I have never been to the USA (not that I wouldn’t wish to), and I am aware that the UK has treated (is treating) its own and other peoples with cruelty and stupidity, and it is not alone in this. So no pissing contest of rottenness from me. But my understanding is that the Puritans were religious fundamentalists who thought that religious tolerance was dangerous and they wished to stamp it out. Are they viewed differently in the US?
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Re: 400 years Since the myth of the Pilgrim Fathers began

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Jack D Ripper wrote: October 23rd, 2020, 11:45 pm
Sculptor1 wrote: October 23rd, 2020, 11:13 am 1620, the story goes that a group of beleagered people fled the evil mother land to avoid persecution.]What a load of BS. It is staggering how this myth of persecution persists as an a priori truth in school rooms across the USA.

The thing that characterised Britian in those days was a long and hard fought for reproachment between Protestants and Catholics whose conflict in the Reformation had been the cause of the death of millions of Europeans.

What England had to offer the multitude of religious sects was TOLERATION.
And it was exactly this "unacceptible toleration" that the so-called Pilgrim Fathers found so abhorent. They simply could not stand the latitudinariamism and broad acceptance of Catholics and other Protestant sects whom they felt were not worshipping god in quite the right way.
So they pissed off the American to pollute that fair land of "savages" with the "Good News".
The result was that they in their turn followed on from the activities of many other white settlers in wrecking the lifes of the indigenous people.

https://www.mail.com/int/scitech/health ... ge-hero1-3
You are right on your main point, as the Pilgrams wanted their bigotry imposed upon others. As for religious toleration in England at that time, it left a lot to be desired. The last witch (Janet Horne) in the UK who was legally killed, occurred in 1727. So it is not exactly true that the British Isles were a bastion of religious freedom and tolerance in 1620.
Compared to the rest of Europe its toleration was legendary.

If something happening in Scotland is "too remote" for your sensibilities, the "witch" Alice Molland was executed in England in 1684, still a long time after 1620.
You seem to be confusing England and Scotland.
I was talking about Christian toleration; and they all agree thou shall not suffer a witch to live.


In the 1700's, the great philosopher David Hume could not get a job teaching philosophy because of what was thought of his views on religion. (David Hume, by the way, today, is widely regarded as the greatest philosopher to write in English.)
In the 20th Century Bertrand Russell could not ger a job in an American University for EXACTLY The same reason.
So the UK was still a bigoted and horrible place. Not that other places were not also horrible and bigoted at that time, but it is simply not true that the UK was a place of great tolerance. It was certainly not the worst place that one could have been at that time, but it was very far from idyllic.
Hume was fully published thou, despite being an atheist, which was a rare thing.
Toleration was a hit political topic formalised in law by 1689, which gave religious freedom to all Protestants.

As for wrecking the lives of others, that is what the history of humanity is all about. I am reminded of a show on PBS in which someone retraced the route of "Alexander the Great", in which it was revealed that in some places where he went, he is remembered as "Alexander the Butcher". What Alexander did was to approach cities which had never encountered him or his people before, and demand that they surrender or be taken over, to have the people killed or enslaved. As one might imagine, different cities reacted differently to this unknown army that approached them. But I am now digressing to something beyond the topic of this thread.
Irrelevant.
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Re: 400 years Since the myth of the Pilgrim Fathers began

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Ecurb wrote: October 23rd, 2020, 6:27 pm As of 1620, it had been 8 long years since the English had burned any heretics at the stake. In 1608 they burned two non-trinitarians (horrors!). Also, Cromwell's genocidal persecution of the Catholics was 30 years on the future.

Perhaps, however, England was populated with unpleasant types in 1620, just like it is today. Can anyone blame the Pilgrims for wanting to escape the likes of our friend Sculptor?
They "escaped" because the political tide was turing to gaurantee religious freedom for all Protestants at that time.
They did not like that, and wanted to impose their own brand of hatred and persecution on whimslever they could.
It is these sorts of religious nut cases that made the US what it is today; the home of evangelical bigots, racists, and sexual deviants.
As for Cromwell's ten year episode - he inspired many a revolution including 1776, and gave the world the inspiration to challenge the divine right of Kings - you ought to be more grateful.
As for Catholics. In Protestant countries they were much like communists or Muslims are thought of today. Catholicism had controlled all of Europe and its fingers reached into every state attempting to regain control for the Vatican.
Cromwell was right to challenge the power of the Vatican since the Catholics were the terrorists of their own time. Catholics had burned too many Protestants to ignore.
You may have heard of Guido Fawkes?
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Re: 400 years Since the myth of the Pilgrim Fathers began

Post by Terrapin Station »

Sculptor1 wrote: October 23rd, 2020, 11:13 am It is staggering how this myth of persecution persists as an a priori truth in school rooms across the USA.
Have we actually done a survey of history textbooks and comments from history teachers for that?
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Re: 400 years Since the myth of the Pilgrim Fathers began

Post by Terrapin Station »

(And was the survey noting the distinction between reporting what the Pilgrims said versus what the historian/history teacher is saying?)
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Re: 400 years Since the myth of the Pilgrim Fathers began

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Terrapin Station wrote: October 24th, 2020, 9:30 am
Sculptor1 wrote: October 23rd, 2020, 11:13 am It is staggering how this myth of persecution persists as an a priori truth in school rooms across the USA.
Have we actually done a survey of history textbooks and comments from history teachers for that?
No, neither have I taken a space ship to see if the moon still looks the same on the "dark side". How remiss of me, now I think about it, I still have not eviserated my abdomen to ccount the number of my ribs.
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Re: 400 years Since the myth of the Pilgrim Fathers began

Post by Terrapin Station »

So, as a skeptic, the first thing that I think when I read something like, "1620, the story goes that a group of beleagered people fled the evil mother land to avoid persecution.]What a load of BS. It is staggering how this myth of persecution persists as an a priori truth in school rooms across the USA" is ---"Is it though?" I'm skeptical that what's taught is so simplistic, one-sided, etc.

And if that's not the case, we basically have no thread.
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Re: 400 years Since the myth of the Pilgrim Fathers began

Post by Ecurb »

Sculptor1 wrote: October 24th, 2020, 7:53 am
It is these sorts of religious nut cases that made the US what it is today; the home of evangelical bigots, racists, and sexual deviants.
Gee, Sculptor, it seems like you'd fit right in. You appear to share the evangelical bigots' prejudice against sexual deviants; you've proven yourself a racist in other threads; your religious bigotry and sexism are blatant. By associating "sexual deviants" with "bigots (and) racists", you are hoist with your own petard.

Please don't come to America, even for a short visit. We have enough crude bigotry here without your help.

Here in America, by the way, many of us have become "woke" to the evils of prejudice against sexual deviance. For that, at least, we can thank the Chinese Communist Party.
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Re: 400 years Since the myth of the Pilgrim Fathers began

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Sexual deviants, represent! :D
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Re: 400 years Since the myth of the Pilgrim Fathers began

Post by Ecurb »

Terrapin Station wrote: October 24th, 2020, 9:36 am So, as a skeptic, the first thing that I think when I read something like, "1620, the story goes that a group of beleagered people fled the evil mother land to avoid persecution.]What a load of BS. It is staggering how this myth of persecution persists as an a priori truth in school rooms across the USA" is ---"Is it though?" I'm skeptical that what's taught is so simplistic, one-sided, etc.

And if that's not the case, we basically have no thread.
I haven't done any surveys, either. I do remember (decades ago) reading about the notion that the Pilgrims were seeking religious freedom (in their case the freedom to practice a repressive religion). This wasn't in history books, but in children's novels. It's part of America's mythological origin story; just like Washington admitting to cutting down the cherry tree.

The origin of the First Amendment is described mythologically in the notion that the early settlers sought religious freedom.

Complaining that such stories aren't literally true would lead to trashing Robin Hood, King Arthur, and Alfred the Great, too. But why bother? The anti-intellectual literalism that "proves" that God doesn't exist or that the Robin Hood stories are "fiction" suggests that if that is the case, there is no value in studying God or Robin. The mythological Pilgrims may be more interesting than the real ones, just as the mythological Robin Hood is probably more worthy of study than the historical Hode (or whatever his name was).
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Re: 400 years Since the myth of the Pilgrim Fathers began

Post by Jack D Ripper »

Wossname wrote: October 24th, 2020, 6:31 am I have never been to the USA (not that I wouldn’t wish to), and I am aware that the UK has treated (is treating) its own and other peoples with cruelty and stupidity, and it is not alone in this. So no pissing contest of rottenness from me. But my understanding is that the Puritans were religious fundamentalists who thought that religious tolerance was dangerous and they wished to stamp it out. Are they viewed differently in the US?
Yes, they often are viewed differently in the US. The story told in the US is mainly from the perspective of the Puritans, not the perspective of those who watched them sail away. In the US, many (not all) Christians regard themselves as being "persecuted" when they are prevented from enforcing their principles with laws.

So, I would say that your perspective on what they were is more accurate than what is commonly believed in the US.
"A wise man ... proportions his belief to the evidence." - David Hume
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Re: 400 years Since the myth of the Pilgrim Fathers began

Post by Jack D Ripper »

Sculptor1 wrote: October 24th, 2020, 7:43 am
Jack D Ripper wrote: October 23rd, 2020, 11:45 pm

You are right on your main point, as the Pilgrams wanted their bigotry imposed upon others. As for religious toleration in England at that time, it left a lot to be desired. The last witch (Janet Horne) in the UK who was legally killed, occurred in 1727. So it is not exactly true that the British Isles were a bastion of religious freedom and tolerance in 1620.
Compared to the rest of Europe its toleration was legendary.

Yes, England had much more religious tolerance than most other places at that time. But that does not make it anything close to ideal.
Sculptor1 wrote: October 24th, 2020, 7:43 am ...


In the 1700's, the great philosopher David Hume could not get a job teaching philosophy because of what was thought of his views on religion. (David Hume, by the way, today, is widely regarded as the greatest philosopher to write in English.)
In the 20th Century Bertrand Russell could not ger a job in an American University for EXACTLY The same reason.

Yes, the UK does not compare with the US for being primitive and barbaric. As savages, you Brits are second-rate. We are number one! USA, USA, USA!

Sculptor1 wrote: October 24th, 2020, 7:43 am
So the UK was still a bigoted and horrible place. Not that other places were not also horrible and bigoted at that time, but it is simply not true that the UK was a place of great tolerance. It was certainly not the worst place that one could have been at that time, but it was very far from idyllic.
Hume was fully published thou, despite being an atheist, which was a rare thing.
...

Several of Hume's works were only published after his death, because of concerns about what the consequences would be (e.g., Dialogues Concerning Natural Religion). Rather than writing it out myself, a quote will do nicely:
The essays “Of Suicide” and “Of the Immortality of the Soul” were sent by Hume to his publisher, Andrew Millar, probably in late 1755 for inclusion in a volume entitled Five Dissertations. Also to be included in the volume were “The Natural History of Religion,” “Of the Passions,” and “Of Tragedy.” The volume was printed by Millar, and several copies were distributed in advance of publication. Yet faced with the prospect of ecclesiastical condemnation and perhaps even official prosecution, Hume decided, at the urging of friends, that it would be prudent not to go ahead with publication of the essays on suicide and immortality. Accordingly, they were excised by Millar, and a new essay, “Of the Standard of Taste,” was added to the volume, which appeared in 1757 under the title Four Dissertations. Despite Hume’s precautions, clerical critics such as Dr. William Warburton knew of the suppressed essays and sometimes alluded to them. The essays even appeared in French translation in 1770, apparently without Hume ever learning of this fact. Shortly before his death, Hume added a codicil to his will, expressing the desire that William Strahan publish his “Dialogues concerning Natural Religion” at any time within two years of the philosopher’s death, to which Strahan “may add, if he thinks proper, the two Essays formerly printed but not published” (in J. Y. T. Greig, ed., The Letters of David Hume, Oxford: Clarendon Press, 1932, 2:453). “Of Suicide” and “Of the Immortality of the Soul” were published in 1777, though probably not by Strahan, under the title Two Essays. Neither the author’s name nor that of the publisher appears on the title page. The details surrounding the suppression and subsequent publication of these two essays are discussed at length by Green and Grose in the prefatory materials to their edition of Hume’s Essays, Moral, Political, and Literary (New Edition; London: Longmans, Green, and Co., 1889), pp. 60–72, and by Mossner in The Life of David Hume (Edinburgh: Nelson, 1954), pp. 319–35.
https://oll.libertyfund.org/titles/hume ... note_nt772

So, no, he was not fully published in his lifetime, and among those things he did publish, he was careful about his wording. For example, in "Of Miracles" in An Enquiry Concerning Human Understanding, Hume is careful to explicitly state that Christianity is true, even though his argument really leads to the opposite conclusion. Indeed, there are enough such things in Hume's writings that some academics seriously believe that Hume was not an atheist. For my part, I am inclined to think he knew that he had to say he was not an atheist, no matter what the truth might be.

Even in his posthumously published writings, he was careful in his wording. For example, the Dialogues Concerning Natural Religion is written, not surprisingly given the title, as a dialogue among different characters in the book, and so nothing that any of them said is necessarily being endorsed by Hume. He was careful because he had to be.
"A wise man ... proportions his belief to the evidence." - David Hume
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