Christmas and contradiction

Discuss philosophical questions regarding theism (and atheism), and discuss religion as it relates to philosophy. This includes any philosophical discussions that happen to be about god, gods, or a 'higher power' or the belief of them. This also generally includes philosophical topics about organized or ritualistic mysticism or about organized, common or ritualistic beliefs in the existence of supernatural phenomenon.
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Sculptor1
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Re: Christmas and contradiction

Post by Sculptor1 »

h_k_s wrote: December 25th, 2020, 8:09 pm
Ecurb wrote: December 24th, 2020, 10:06 pm Kings are born in palaces, not in stables. Virgins do not give birth. Poor is not rich. Death is not birth.

Still, (from the song "O Holy Night"):

"A thrill of hope, the weary world rejoices
For yonder breaks a new and glorious morn...."

Merry Christmas!
Obviously you @Ecurb are no fan of religion.

Remember though, as Bertrand Russell said, you must always keep philosophy, religion, and science separated.

They have nothing in common.
He was an atheist too.
But he never said to keep philosophy separate from science.
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Sculptor1
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Re: Christmas and contradiction

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Pattern-chaser wrote: December 26th, 2020, 12:09 pm
Ecurb wrote: December 24th, 2020, 10:06 pm Virgins do not give birth.
Have you not heard of parthenogenesis? According to Wikipedia, it occurs in all kinds of creatures, including humans.

Blwyddyn Newydd Dda!
I think it is stretching language to say that it "happens in humans". It can happen in a test tube in a laboratory. But I'm pretty sure no test tube existed 2020 year ago, and neither did the science.

Nadolig LLawen
Atla
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Re: Christmas and contradiction

Post by Atla »

Fanman wrote: December 26th, 2020, 12:08 pm Atla,
Ignorance is bliss for most people, lacking the ability to combine science and philosophy may be a lucky personality trait for most people.
This doesn’t make clear to me what you initially said, but if you don’t want to expound, that’s fine. I was just interested in how science and philosophy could be combined. As in, what role could philosophy play in science?
By using established scientific facts to decide which philosophical views are valid and which aren't. We throw out the refuted views. Any by using philosophical insights to properly understand what the nature of scientific facts is anyway, how to properly handle them. We continue this process, until all the important scientific facts and all our philosophical insights are aligned, and form a coherent, consistent worldview.

The first major surprise is that this process leads us out of the Western school of thought alltogether, leads to a certain kind of thinking that's only inherent to some Eastern philosophies.

And after we've covered all that is more or less certain, we can then press forward into shaky territory, where we come up with metaphysical speculations about things that aren't certain. The only useful way to do this is to try to calculate how likely certain metaphysical scenarios are (probabilities, Occam's razor etc.)

The second major surprise is that we find out that it's probable that humanity will end soon, and all is hopeless for either everyone or almost everyone. If towards the end of the search for truths, we encounter something so fatal, then maybe ignorance is bliss for most people, this is the one thing they did not ask for.
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Re: Christmas and contradiction

Post by Fanman »

Atla,

Flawless post. I agree and echo what you say.
Theists believe, agnostics ponder and atheists analyse. A little bit of each should get us the right answer.
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Re: Christmas and contradiction

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Atla wrote: December 26th, 2020, 1:14 pm
Fanman wrote: December 26th, 2020, 12:08 pm Atla,



This doesn’t make clear to me what you initially said, but if you don’t want to expound, that’s fine. I was just interested in how science and philosophy could be combined. As in, what role could philosophy play in science?
By using established scientific facts to decide which philosophical views are valid and which aren't.
You have this precisely backwards
Atla
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Re: Christmas and contradiction

Post by Atla »

Sculptor1 wrote: December 26th, 2020, 2:00 pm
Atla wrote: December 26th, 2020, 1:14 pm
By using established scientific facts to decide which philosophical views are valid and which aren't.
You have this precisely backwards
Good point, let's start with throwing out all science that isn't based on the 4 elements
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Re: Christmas and contradiction

Post by h_k_s »

Fanman wrote: December 26th, 2020, 2:34 am h_k_s,
Remember though, as Bertrand Russell said, you must always keep philosophy, religion, and science separated.
I agree with this sentiment. Philosophy requires an open-mind, religion requires giving up on your autonomy, and science requires the following of a strict, proven method.

Intrinsically, they function in different ways, which also seem to contradict each other in various ways. If you try to combine them, they cannot be facilitated in a way that will get the best or right results.
Fanman there is a danger in giving science too much credit as well. It must be remembered that scientific doctrine changes all the time. And it often is dictated by what popular scientific groups endorse, which is a fallacy of argumentum populum. Just because a number of scientists agree on something does not make it right. They are the blind leading the blind just like any other group.

Philosophy then is the only activity that can be trusted. It is an overseer of both science and religion.

That's what Bertrand Russell was trying to convey. Bless his atheist soul.
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Re: Christmas and contradiction

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Atla wrote: December 26th, 2020, 3:05 pm
Sculptor1 wrote: December 26th, 2020, 2:00 pm

You have this precisely backwards
Good point, let's start with throwing out all science that isn't based on the 4 elements
Science is natural philosophy. Empiricism upon which ALL science is based is philosophical.
You need philosophy to refute the simplicity of the four humours. Without philosophy in science you are stuck with primitivism
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Re: Christmas and contradiction

Post by Atla »

Sculptor1 wrote: December 26th, 2020, 3:23 pm
Atla wrote: December 26th, 2020, 3:05 pm
Good point, let's start with throwing out all science that isn't based on the 4 elements
Science is natural philosophy. Empiricism upon which ALL science is based is philosophical.
You need philosophy to refute the simplicity of the four humours. Without philosophy in science you are stuck with primitivism
I'll copy the part where I addressed this (I know it's difficult to read more than the first sentence of a comment):
And by using philosophical insights to properly understand what the nature of scientific facts is anyway, how to properly handle them.
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Fanman
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Re: Christmas and contradiction

Post by Fanman »

h_k_s,
@Fanman there is a danger in giving science too much credit as well. It must be remembered that scientific doctrine changes all the time. And it often is dictated by what popular scientific groups endorse, which is a fallacy of argumentum populum. Just because a number of scientists agree on something does not make it right. They are the blind leading the blind just like any other group.
You have a valid point in terms of the herd mentality. But genuine science relies on empirical facts. We can get no better than that as a basis for philosophical enquiry. Thanks to science we have a vaccine for covid-19. No matter how much philosophy or religion brings to the table, science leads the way, in terms of efficacy for our species.
Philosophy then is the only activity that can be trusted. It is an overseer of both science and religion.
I think it depends on the mind of the person doing the philosophy. For every Aristotle there is an [insert bad philosopher].

I think that philosophy is only useful in science and religion in terms of ethics. Not sure if I am right about that though.
Theists believe, agnostics ponder and atheists analyse. A little bit of each should get us the right answer.
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Re: Christmas and contradiction

Post by Sculptor1 »

Atla wrote: December 26th, 2020, 3:35 pm
Sculptor1 wrote: December 26th, 2020, 3:23 pm
Science is natural philosophy. Empiricism upon which ALL science is based is philosophical.
You need philosophy to refute the simplicity of the four humours. Without philosophy in science you are stuck with primitivism
I'll copy the part where I addressed this (I know it's difficult to read more than the first sentence of a comment):
And by using philosophical insights to properly understand what the nature of scientific facts is anyway, how to properly handle them.
FIne.
But you said this
By using established scientific facts to decide which philosophical views are valid and which aren't.
WHich is complete F0cking ********.
Atla
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Re: Christmas and contradiction

Post by Atla »

Sculptor1 wrote: December 26th, 2020, 5:06 pm
Atla wrote: December 26th, 2020, 3:35 pm
I'll copy the part where I addressed this (I know it's difficult to read more than the first sentence of a comment):
FIne.
But you said this
By using established scientific facts to decide which philosophical views are valid and which aren't.
WHich is complete F0cking ********.
Yes, because it's too difficult for you to understand that science can refute some ideas, for example: that the world is made of 4 elements, or that the Earth is the centre of the universe, or the existence of the abstract objects of platonism, or naive realism etc. etc. etc.
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Re: Christmas and contradiction

Post by Sculptor1 »

Atla wrote: December 26th, 2020, 5:17 pm
Sculptor1 wrote: December 26th, 2020, 5:06 pm
FIne.
But you said this
By using established scientific facts to decide which philosophical views are valid and which aren't.
WHich is complete F0cking ********.
Yes, because it's too difficult for you to understand that science can refute some ideas, for example: that the world is made of 4 elements, or that the Earth is the centre of the universe, or the existence of the abstract objects of platonism, or naive realism etc. etc. etc.
It was science that gave us the four elements.
And that the earth was the centre of the universe
Atla
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Re: Christmas and contradiction

Post by Atla »

Sculptor1 wrote: December 26th, 2020, 5:19 pm
Atla wrote: December 26th, 2020, 5:17 pm
Yes, because it's too difficult for you to understand that science can refute some ideas, for example: that the world is made of 4 elements, or that the Earth is the centre of the universe, or the existence of the abstract objects of platonism, or naive realism etc. etc. etc.
It was science that gave us the four elements.
And that the earth was the centre of the universe
What is meant by 'science' today roughly started with Galileo, and then advanced for 400 years. I know these things are difficult.
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Re: Christmas and contradiction

Post by Sculptor1 »

Atla wrote: December 26th, 2020, 5:23 pm
Sculptor1 wrote: December 26th, 2020, 5:19 pm
It was science that gave us the four elements.
And that the earth was the centre of the universe
What is meant by 'science' today roughly started with Galileo, and then advanced for 400 years. I know these things are difficult.
I'm sad you find them difficult.
Maybe you should read more?
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