Christmas and contradiction

Discuss philosophical questions regarding theism (and atheism), and discuss religion as it relates to philosophy. This includes any philosophical discussions that happen to be about god, gods, or a 'higher power' or the belief of them. This also generally includes philosophical topics about organized or ritualistic mysticism or about organized, common or ritualistic beliefs in the existence of supernatural phenomenon.
User avatar
Pattern-chaser
Premium Member
Posts: 8232
Joined: September 22nd, 2019, 5:17 am
Favorite Philosopher: Cratylus
Location: England

Re: Christmas and contradiction

Post by Pattern-chaser »

Atla wrote: December 26th, 2020, 5:17 pm Yes, because it's too difficult for you to understand that science can refute some ideas, for example: that the world is made of 4 elements...
You mean Earth, Water, Air and Fire? Perhaps you will see it more easily if I call them solid, liquid, gas and energy? 😉
Pattern-chaser

"Who cares, wins"
Atla
Posts: 2540
Joined: January 30th, 2018, 1:18 pm

Re: Christmas and contradiction

Post by Atla »

Sculptor1 wrote: December 27th, 2020, 8:36 am
Atla wrote: December 26th, 2020, 5:23 pm
What is meant by 'science' today roughly started with Galileo, and then advanced for 400 years. I know these things are difficult.
I'm sad you find them difficult.
Maybe you should read more?
You're the one who thought that the 4 elements are science. :)
True philosophy points to the Moon
Atla
Posts: 2540
Joined: January 30th, 2018, 1:18 pm

Re: Christmas and contradiction

Post by Atla »

Pattern-chaser wrote: December 27th, 2020, 8:46 am
Atla wrote: December 26th, 2020, 5:17 pm Yes, because it's too difficult for you to understand that science can refute some ideas, for example: that the world is made of 4 elements...
You mean Earth, Water, Air and Fire? Perhaps you will see it more easily if I call them solid, liquid, gas and energy? 😉
And this one doesn't know the difference between elements and the common states of matter.
True philosophy points to the Moon
User avatar
Sculptor1
Posts: 7066
Joined: May 16th, 2019, 5:35 am

Re: Christmas and contradiction

Post by Sculptor1 »

Atla wrote: December 27th, 2020, 8:56 am
Sculptor1 wrote: December 27th, 2020, 8:36 am
I'm sad you find them difficult.
Maybe you should read more?
You're the one who thought that the 4 elements are science. :)
Like I said, maybe you should read more.
Let me recommned this one.

Greek Science After Aristotle
by G. E. R. Lloyd
Atla
Posts: 2540
Joined: January 30th, 2018, 1:18 pm

Re: Christmas and contradiction

Post by Atla »

Sculptor1 wrote: December 27th, 2020, 9:37 am
Atla wrote: December 27th, 2020, 8:56 am
You're the one who thought that the 4 elements are science. :)
Like I said, maybe you should read more.
Let me recommned this one.

Greek Science After Aristotle
by G. E. R. Lloyd
Here's something for you to read too:

https://www.amazon.com/Tabbed-Board-Boo ... 0756636043

Once you get used to big numbers like 2020, you'll have an easier time avoiding anachronism
True philosophy points to the Moon
User avatar
Pattern-chaser
Premium Member
Posts: 8232
Joined: September 22nd, 2019, 5:17 am
Favorite Philosopher: Cratylus
Location: England

Re: Christmas and contradiction

Post by Pattern-chaser »

Atla wrote: December 27th, 2020, 8:59 am
Pattern-chaser wrote: December 27th, 2020, 8:46 am You mean Earth, Water, Air and Fire? Perhaps you will see it more easily if I call them solid, liquid, gas and energy? 😉
And this one doesn't know the difference between elements and the common states of matter.
The use of "elements" in this way pre-dates the more modern use (as in "chemical elements") by many centuries. The original usage is acceptable and clear.
Pattern-chaser

"Who cares, wins"
Atla
Posts: 2540
Joined: January 30th, 2018, 1:18 pm

Re: Christmas and contradiction

Post by Atla »

Pattern-chaser wrote: December 27th, 2020, 10:12 am
Atla wrote: December 27th, 2020, 8:59 am
And this one doesn't know the difference between elements and the common states of matter.
The use of "elements" in this way pre-dates the more modern use (as in "chemical elements") by many centuries. The original usage is acceptable and clear.
Now you're mixing three different things, the 4 elements, the chemical elements and the common states of matter.
True philosophy points to the Moon
User avatar
Pattern-chaser
Premium Member
Posts: 8232
Joined: September 22nd, 2019, 5:17 am
Favorite Philosopher: Cratylus
Location: England

Re: Christmas and contradiction

Post by Pattern-chaser »

Atla wrote: December 27th, 2020, 10:19 am
Pattern-chaser wrote: December 27th, 2020, 10:12 am

The use of "elements" in this way pre-dates the more modern use (as in "chemical elements") by many centuries. The original usage is acceptable and clear.
Now you're mixing three different things, the 4 elements, the chemical elements and the common states of matter.
So what? My words are clear and easily understood. What's your problem?
Pattern-chaser

"Who cares, wins"
Atla
Posts: 2540
Joined: January 30th, 2018, 1:18 pm

Re: Christmas and contradiction

Post by Atla »

Pattern-chaser wrote: December 27th, 2020, 10:33 am
Atla wrote: December 27th, 2020, 10:19 am
Now you're mixing three different things, the 4 elements, the chemical elements and the common states of matter.
So what? My words are clear and easily understood. What's your problem?
You're conflating three different things, while apparently also agreeing and disagreeing with me at the same time contradicting yourself, while trying to play the know-it-all. Wouldn't call that clear and easily understood.
True philosophy points to the Moon
User avatar
Sculptor1
Posts: 7066
Joined: May 16th, 2019, 5:35 am

Re: Christmas and contradiction

Post by Sculptor1 »

Pattern-chaser wrote: December 27th, 2020, 10:12 am
Atla wrote: December 27th, 2020, 8:59 am
And this one doesn't know the difference between elements and the common states of matter.
The use of "elements" in this way pre-dates the more modern use (as in "chemical elements") by many centuries. The original usage is acceptable and clear.
Yes, as the contemporary cosmology of the universe was considered to be made of only four elemental substances, the term "element" is not only correct it is literally correct.
We still use the term "elements" poetically when we talk about the weather.
And in a sense, what we now call elements such as hydrogen, helium etc.. are no longer elemental since we now use a long list of sub-atomic particles.

And whilst we are on the subject the word "atom" also dates from pre-socratic Greece and literaly means a fundemental particle so small it cannot be divided.
User avatar
Pattern-chaser
Premium Member
Posts: 8232
Joined: September 22nd, 2019, 5:17 am
Favorite Philosopher: Cratylus
Location: England

Re: Christmas and contradiction

Post by Pattern-chaser »

Atla wrote: December 27th, 2020, 11:06 am
Pattern-chaser wrote: December 27th, 2020, 10:33 am So what? My words are clear and easily understood. What's your problem?
You're conflating three different things, while apparently also agreeing and disagreeing with me at the same time contradicting yourself, while trying to play the know-it-all. Wouldn't call that clear and easily understood.

I'm sorry you feel that way. You offered the four elements as an example of primitive and ignorant superstition. I observed that the ancients had already begun their (metaphorical) journey from astrology to astronomy, all those centuries before the emergence of science, and were not quite as ignorant as we sometimes think. So I disagreed with you, mildly. And quite clearly, I think....
Pattern-chaser

"Who cares, wins"
Atla
Posts: 2540
Joined: January 30th, 2018, 1:18 pm

Re: Christmas and contradiction

Post by Atla »

Pattern-chaser wrote: December 28th, 2020, 11:35 am
Atla wrote: December 27th, 2020, 11:06 am
You're conflating three different things, while apparently also agreeing and disagreeing with me at the same time contradicting yourself, while trying to play the know-it-all. Wouldn't call that clear and easily understood.

I'm sorry you feel that way. You offered the four elements as an example of primitive and ignorant superstition. I observed that the ancients had already begun their (metaphorical) journey from astrology to astronomy, all those centuries before the emergence of science, and were not quite as ignorant as we sometimes think. So I disagreed with you, mildly. And quite clearly, I think....
And as usual you don't know what you're replying to. I wrote that some philosophical views can be seen as refuted by science, and Sculptor wrote that the opposite is true. The opposite of that is that we take some philosophical views (which ones though?), and then decide which experimentally established scientific facts are valid and which ones aren't. For example hydrogen oxygen and other chemical elements obviously don't exist, because they are irreconcilable with the truth of the four elements.

Also fyi, fairly advanced technology already existed way before the Greeks.
True philosophy points to the Moon
User avatar
h_k_s
Posts: 1243
Joined: November 25th, 2018, 12:09 pm
Favorite Philosopher: Aristotle
Location: Rocky Mountains

Re: Christmas and contradiction

Post by h_k_s »

With the coming and going of yet another Xmas, we the Western World which was primarily built upon the foundation of Christian religion, advance again past Advent and on towards, Lent, Palm Sunday, Holy Thursday, Good Friday, Easter Sunday, and Pentecost in remembrance and celebration of the New Covenant.

Christian religion like Hinduism, Confucianism, and Buddhism before it, contains a lot of philosophy. What is good? And what is best? These question are all addressed in different ways by these 4 major religions in a philosophical way.

Pure philosophy completely disregards religion and science, and seeks to answer what is good and what is best through inquiry of the mind and pure unadulterated human though. Often though all 6 of these arrive at the same destination, just along different paths.

The journey is as important as the destination. Actually, in many ways, to travel is better than to arrive.
User avatar
h_k_s
Posts: 1243
Joined: November 25th, 2018, 12:09 pm
Favorite Philosopher: Aristotle
Location: Rocky Mountains

Re: Christmas and contradiction

Post by h_k_s »

Pattern-chaser wrote: December 28th, 2020, 11:35 am
Atla wrote: December 27th, 2020, 11:06 am
You're conflating three different things, while apparently also agreeing and disagreeing with me at the same time contradicting yourself, while trying to play the know-it-all. Wouldn't call that clear and easily understood.

I'm sorry you feel that way. You offered the four elements as an example of primitive and ignorant superstition. I observed that the ancients had already begun their (metaphorical) journey from astrology to astronomy, all those centuries before the emergence of science, and were not quite as ignorant as we sometimes think. So I disagreed with you, mildly. And quite clearly, I think....
Confucius say, never argue with an idiot; the people watching may not be able to tell the difference. Ah, so.
Atla
Posts: 2540
Joined: January 30th, 2018, 1:18 pm

Re: Christmas and contradiction

Post by Atla »

h_k_s wrote: December 30th, 2020, 5:22 am
Pattern-chaser wrote: December 28th, 2020, 11:35 am


I'm sorry you feel that way. You offered the four elements as an example of primitive and ignorant superstition. I observed that the ancients had already begun their (metaphorical) journey from astrology to astronomy, all those centuries before the emergence of science, and were not quite as ignorant as we sometimes think. So I disagreed with you, mildly. And quite clearly, I think....
Confucius say, never argue with an idiot; the people watching may not be able to tell the difference. Ah, so.
Except I didn't write or imply what Pattern-chaser is arguing against. What's with people's reading comprehension skills on this forum?
True philosophy points to the Moon
Post Reply

Return to “Philosophy of Religion, Theism and Mythology”

2023/2024 Philosophy Books of the Month

Entanglement - Quantum and Otherwise

Entanglement - Quantum and Otherwise
by John K Danenbarger
January 2023

Mark Victor Hansen, Relentless: Wisdom Behind the Incomparable Chicken Soup for the Soul

Mark Victor Hansen, Relentless: Wisdom Behind the Incomparable Chicken Soup for the Soul
by Mitzi Perdue
February 2023

Rediscovering the Wisdom of Human Nature: How Civilization Destroys Happiness

Rediscovering the Wisdom of Human Nature: How Civilization Destroys Happiness
by Chet Shupe
March 2023

The Unfakeable Code®

The Unfakeable Code®
by Tony Jeton Selimi
April 2023

The Book: On the Taboo Against Knowing Who You Are

The Book: On the Taboo Against Knowing Who You Are
by Alan Watts
May 2023

Killing Abel

Killing Abel
by Michael Tieman
June 2023

Reconfigurement: Reconfiguring Your Life at Any Stage and Planning Ahead

Reconfigurement: Reconfiguring Your Life at Any Stage and Planning Ahead
by E. Alan Fleischauer
July 2023

First Survivor: The Impossible Childhood Cancer Breakthrough

First Survivor: The Impossible Childhood Cancer Breakthrough
by Mark Unger
August 2023

Predictably Irrational

Predictably Irrational
by Dan Ariely
September 2023

Artwords

Artwords
by Beatriz M. Robles
November 2023

Fireproof Happiness: Extinguishing Anxiety & Igniting Hope

Fireproof Happiness: Extinguishing Anxiety & Igniting Hope
by Dr. Randy Ross
December 2023

Beyond the Golden Door: Seeing the American Dream Through an Immigrant's Eyes

Beyond the Golden Door: Seeing the American Dream Through an Immigrant's Eyes
by Ali Master
February 2024

2022 Philosophy Books of the Month

Emotional Intelligence At Work

Emotional Intelligence At Work
by Richard M Contino & Penelope J Holt
January 2022

Free Will, Do You Have It?

Free Will, Do You Have It?
by Albertus Kral
February 2022

My Enemy in Vietnam

My Enemy in Vietnam
by Billy Springer
March 2022

2X2 on the Ark

2X2 on the Ark
by Mary J Giuffra, PhD
April 2022

The Maestro Monologue

The Maestro Monologue
by Rob White
May 2022

What Makes America Great

What Makes America Great
by Bob Dowell
June 2022

The Truth Is Beyond Belief!

The Truth Is Beyond Belief!
by Jerry Durr
July 2022

Living in Color

Living in Color
by Mike Murphy
August 2022 (tentative)

The Not So Great American Novel

The Not So Great American Novel
by James E Doucette
September 2022

Mary Jane Whiteley Coggeshall, Hicksite Quaker, Iowa/National Suffragette And Her Speeches

Mary Jane Whiteley Coggeshall, Hicksite Quaker, Iowa/National Suffragette And Her Speeches
by John N. (Jake) Ferris
October 2022

In It Together: The Beautiful Struggle Uniting Us All

In It Together: The Beautiful Struggle Uniting Us All
by Eckhart Aurelius Hughes
November 2022

The Smartest Person in the Room: The Root Cause and New Solution for Cybersecurity

The Smartest Person in the Room
by Christian Espinosa
December 2022

2021 Philosophy Books of the Month

The Biblical Clock: The Untold Secrets Linking the Universe and Humanity with God's Plan

The Biblical Clock
by Daniel Friedmann
March 2021

Wilderness Cry: A Scientific and Philosophical Approach to Understanding God and the Universe

Wilderness Cry
by Dr. Hilary L Hunt M.D.
April 2021

Fear Not, Dream Big, & Execute: Tools To Spark Your Dream And Ignite Your Follow-Through

Fear Not, Dream Big, & Execute
by Jeff Meyer
May 2021

Surviving the Business of Healthcare: Knowledge is Power

Surviving the Business of Healthcare
by Barbara Galutia Regis M.S. PA-C
June 2021

Winning the War on Cancer: The Epic Journey Towards a Natural Cure

Winning the War on Cancer
by Sylvie Beljanski
July 2021

Defining Moments of a Free Man from a Black Stream

Defining Moments of a Free Man from a Black Stream
by Dr Frank L Douglas
August 2021

If Life Stinks, Get Your Head Outta Your Buts

If Life Stinks, Get Your Head Outta Your Buts
by Mark L. Wdowiak
September 2021

The Preppers Medical Handbook

The Preppers Medical Handbook
by Dr. William W Forgey M.D.
October 2021

Natural Relief for Anxiety and Stress: A Practical Guide

Natural Relief for Anxiety and Stress
by Dr. Gustavo Kinrys, MD
November 2021

Dream For Peace: An Ambassador Memoir

Dream For Peace
by Dr. Ghoulem Berrah
December 2021