Eastern Vs Western Philosophy and Religion

Discuss philosophical questions regarding theism (and atheism), and discuss religion as it relates to philosophy. This includes any philosophical discussions that happen to be about god, gods, or a 'higher power' or the belief of them. This also generally includes philosophical topics about organized or ritualistic mysticism or about organized, common or ritualistic beliefs in the existence of supernatural phenomenon.
baker
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Re: Eastern Vs Western Philosophy and Religion

Post by baker »

Tegularius wrote: February 13th, 2021, 1:39 am One of my objections to Eastern philosophy is that like its civilizations it comes across as monolithic hardly ever changing or advancing.
In some of them, this is actually the point: staying true to the founder, to the original teachings.

New doesn't automatically mean better, or truer.
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Re: Eastern Vs Western Philosophy and Religion

Post by Tegularius »

baker wrote: February 13th, 2021, 4:06 pm
Tegularius wrote: February 13th, 2021, 1:39 am One of my objections to Eastern philosophy is that like its civilizations it comes across as monolithic hardly ever changing or advancing.
In some of them, this is actually the point: staying true to the founder, to the original teachings.

New doesn't automatically mean better, or truer.
It's not a matter of newer. It's a matter of advancement. If the contents of the pot don't get stirred occasionally and sometimes violently with new spices added it will only degenerate. The East has had that problem for centuries on end; a bureaucratic stop so as not to shake the kingdom and ideas that weren't part of the status quo were considered foreign infestations.
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Re: Eastern Vs Western Philosophy and Religion

Post by Tegularius »

Tegularius wrote: February 13th, 2021, 1:39 am
One of my objections to Eastern philosophy is that like its civilizations it comes across as monolithic hardly ever changing or advancing.
Pattern-chaser wrote: February 13th, 2021, 12:30 pmWhen one of my sons introduces me to one of their fave bands, I often find all the tracks sound the same. It took me many years to work out that this is because I'm not especially fond of that particualr music, so I don't distinguish or differentiate. Do you think your attitude to Eastern philosophy might have something in common with this view?
Not at all. Though I admit I may not be completely right I’m also not so very wrong when asking what has China accomplished during its 4000 year history compared to the West?
Tegularius wrote: February 13th, 2021, 1:39 am ...in whatever ways Eastern thought influenced the West, the latter is, and was, of far greater importance to the East than the other way around.
Pattern-chaser wrote: February 13th, 2021, 12:30 pm You think so? Obviously you do, 'cause you wrote it. But do you have any way to illustrate how it might be the case? The only thing I can think of that the West has sent off in an Easterly direction is American Capitalism ... and I don't see that as any kind of favour or benefit.
Really! It doesn’t seem to me that the Chinese would think so who are in the process of out-performing and out-capitalizing the West. It’s not for nothing that Biden said “China is eating our lunch” which has long ceased to be a recent revelation! When you look at the main economic centers of China their cities look thoroughly western only newer and more modern. How did it get that way in such a relatively short time? By the Western influx of science and technologies and the training of Chinese students in the West unless you believe they did it all on their own. This together with the vast pilferage of intellectual property which Europeans and Americans have been complaining about for a very long time.

Of course the West was too stupid to figure out the possible consequences that China in spite of being one of the biggest beneficiaries of the West they will never be its friend and always its enemy. China as a cold-war antagonist is far more dangerous than Russia ever was. China became the dragon it is today only because it was fed by Western greed and corruption.

It's the East that's rising and the West that's declining until the worst effects of climate change changes everything on the planet for the worse and relationships between nations into a geopolitical hell.
The earth has a skin and that skin has diseases; one of its diseases is called man ... Nietzsche
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Re: Eastern Vs Western Philosophy and Religion

Post by Pattern-chaser »

Tegularius wrote: February 13th, 2021, 1:39 am One of my objections to Eastern philosophy is that like its civilizations it comes across as monolithic hardly ever changing or advancing.

baker wrote: February 13th, 2021, 4:06 pm In some of them, this is actually the point: staying true to the founder, to the original teachings.

New doesn't automatically mean better, or truer.

Tegularius wrote: February 13th, 2021, 11:13 pm It's not a matter of newer. It's a matter of advancement. If the contents of the pot don't get stirred occasionally and sometimes violently with new spices added it will only degenerate. The East has had that problem for centuries on end; a bureaucratic stop so as not to shake the kingdom and ideas that weren't part of the status quo were considered foreign infestations.

Argument by assertion. There are no facts here, only you, asserting your beliefs. There's nothing wrong with that; we all do it every day of our lives; it's unavoidable. But it doesn't form part of a serious philosophical discussion, I don't think. You appear to be offering the bias and prejudice of a typical American, toward a foreign country that scares them (because China owns much of the USA's debt, perhaps?).

Where are the justifications for these opinions of yours? Can we see them?
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Re: Eastern Vs Western Philosophy and Religion

Post by baker »

Tegularius wrote: February 13th, 2021, 11:13 pmIt's not a matter of newer. It's a matter of advancement. If the contents of the pot don't get stirred occasionally and sometimes violently with new spices added it will only degenerate.
You're speaking from one-lifetime perspective.

Dharmic religions see things differently, with their concept of the cyclic nature of existence.

So in Buddhism, for example, they say that a buddha emerges, teaches his teachings, then he passes away, the teachings slowly become corrupted by people, until the teachings finally disappear completely, and after a while, a new buddha emerges, and again teaches his teachings, and so on, in circles.
It's not only that individual beings are reincarnated/reborn, it's that the whole universe exists in such cycles of creation and destruction.
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Re: Eastern Vs Western Philosophy and Religion

Post by Count Lucanor »

Pattern-chaser wrote: February 8th, 2021, 10:17 am
Tegularius wrote: February 7th, 2021, 11:27 pm
Count Lucanor wrote: February 7th, 2021, 12:22 pm To this day, Eastern philosophy sucks big time.
Agree completely. It's long been a dead end with no moving parts. It's at least one reason why most Easterners have thrown it aside in favor of Western Capitalism accompanied by a huge influx of Western culture.
It seems to me that Eastern philosophy has spread widely across the 'West', just as Western ideas have spread into the East. Eastern philosophy is more popular, and widely known, than it ever was in the past. Over the past 50 years or so, the influence of Eastern philosophy on/in the West seems to have increased markedly. So I cannot agree that Eastern philosophy does not have anything to offer, as the two of you suggest. 🤔
Sure, over the last 50-100 years a lot of Eastern philosophy that sucks has been introduced by popular culture into the West, and that is one of the signs of decadence of Western culture.
The wise are instructed by reason, average minds by experience, the stupid by necessity and the brute by instinct.
― Marcus Tullius Cicero
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Re: Eastern Vs Western Philosophy and Religion

Post by Tegularius »

baker wrote: February 14th, 2021, 11:50 am
Tegularius wrote: February 13th, 2021, 11:13 pmIt's not a matter of newer. It's a matter of advancement. If the contents of the pot don't get stirred occasionally and sometimes violently with new spices added it will only degenerate.
You're speaking from one-lifetime perspective.

Dharmic religions see things differently, with their concept of the cyclic nature of existence.

So in Buddhism, for example, they say that a buddha emerges, teaches his teachings, then he passes away, the teachings slowly become corrupted by people, until the teachings finally disappear completely, and after a while, a new buddha emerges, and again teaches his teachings, and so on, in circles.
It's not only that individual beings are reincarnated/reborn, it's that the whole universe exists in such cycles of creation and destruction.
I understand that! It's a truly grand perspective but that's all it is and that's where it has remained. It's difficult to proceed upon rendering a holistic interpretation which becomes an unchangeable philosophy or religion. We don't know whether the universe is cyclic. There are a number of other possibilities. Be that as it may, what's the value in simply espousing such views religiously or philosophically and leave it at that as if it were a done deal. It goes to show again the main difference between East & West. The intellectual histories or philosophy of the former is static; the latter, in spite of Christianity, dynamic. How the story unfolds between the two remains to be seen in which future problems acquire a completely different perspective common to both.
The earth has a skin and that skin has diseases; one of its diseases is called man ... Nietzsche
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Re: Eastern Vs Western Philosophy and Religion

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LuckyR wrote: February 10th, 2021, 4:44 am I would separate academic value from personal value.
What does any philosophy need to have in order to have academic value (apart from academics who are interested enough to talk/write about it)?
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Re: Eastern Vs Western Philosophy and Religion

Post by -0+ »

Count Lucanor wrote: February 14th, 2021, 1:42 pm
Pattern-chaser wrote: February 8th, 2021, 10:17 am
Tegularius wrote: February 7th, 2021, 11:27 pm
Count Lucanor wrote: February 7th, 2021, 12:22 pm To this day, Eastern philosophy sucks big time.
Agree completely. It's long been a dead end with no moving parts. It's at least one reason why most Easterners have thrown it aside in favor of Western Capitalism accompanied by a huge influx of Western culture.
It seems to me that Eastern philosophy has spread widely across the 'West', just as Western ideas have spread into the East. Eastern philosophy is more popular, and widely known, than it ever was in the past. Over the past 50 years or so, the influence of Eastern philosophy on/in the West seems to have increased markedly. So I cannot agree that Eastern philosophy does not have anything to offer, as the two of you suggest. 🤔
Sure, over the last 50-100 years a lot of Eastern philosophy that sucks has been introduced by popular culture into the West, and that is one of the signs of decadence of Western culture.
Which Eastern philosophy sucks, and how does it suck?

Which philosophy promotes decadence, or is otherwise responsible for decadence of Western culture, and how does it cause this decadence?

Decadence is linked to ideas of superiority/inferiority, self-indulgence, pleasure, desire, and ego.

On a spherical world, any division between "East" and "West" is arbitrary. If "Eastern philosophy" is defined as various philosophies that originated in South or East Asia, then this classification is questionable (especially if South Asia is ethnically and linguistically more closely related to Europe than East Asia). Why this particular conglomeration of diverse regions and cultures? Why lump China and India together and separate them from North and West Asia? What do the philosophies of the so-called "East" have in common? Is the main thing they have in common that their people have not converted to Christianity or Islam as readily as the rest of the world?
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Re: Eastern Vs Western Philosophy and Religion

Post by LuckyR »

-0+ wrote: February 14th, 2021, 7:39 pm
LuckyR wrote: February 10th, 2021, 4:44 am I would separate academic value from personal value.
What does any philosophy need to have in order to have academic value (apart from academics who are interested enough to talk/write about it)?
Nothing. That is exactly what I was referring to.
"As usual... it depends."
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Re: Eastern Vs Western Philosophy and Religion

Post by baker »

Tegularius wrote: February 14th, 2021, 6:43 pmWe don't know whether the universe is cyclic.
Nor do we know that it isn't.
Be that as it may, what's the value in simply espousing such views religiously or philosophically and leave it at that as if it were a done deal.
For all practical intents and purposes, insisting on such a status quo lends those views legitimacy, authority.

Theoretically, if those views were in fact espoused by spiritually attained beings, there's a good chance that those views actually do have proper legitimacy and authority.
It goes to show again the main difference between East & West. The intellectual histories or philosophy of the former is static; the latter, in spite of Christianity, dynamic.
And thus stripping those newer philosophical developments of authority and legitimacy. What we now have is a quagmire of views, all of which are potentially right or potentially wrong, but it's not like we can know for sure. How is that progress toward something better than the static model?
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Re: Eastern Vs Western Philosophy and Religion

Post by baker »

Count Lucanor wrote: February 14th, 2021, 1:42 pmSure, over the last 50-100 years a lot of Eastern philosophy that sucks has been introduced by popular culture into the West, and that is one of the signs of decadence of Western culture.
And of Eastern culture as well, given the way that Eastern teachings tend to be bastardized in the West, popularized to the point that they are unrecognizable as "Eastern".

For example, the nonsense that now gets to pass as "Buddhism" in the West ...
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Re: Eastern Vs Western Philosophy and Religion

Post by Count Lucanor »

baker wrote: February 15th, 2021, 6:31 am
Count Lucanor wrote: February 14th, 2021, 1:42 pmSure, over the last 50-100 years a lot of Eastern philosophy that sucks has been introduced by popular culture into the West, and that is one of the signs of decadence of Western culture.
And of Eastern culture as well, given the way that Eastern teachings tend to be bastardized in the West, popularized to the point that they are unrecognizable as "Eastern".

For example, the nonsense that now gets to pass as "Buddhism" in the West ...
Completely agree!!
The wise are instructed by reason, average minds by experience, the stupid by necessity and the brute by instinct.
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Re: Eastern Vs Western Philosophy and Religion

Post by Tegularius »

Pattern-chaser wrote: February 14th, 2021, 10:45 am
Tegularius wrote: February 13th, 2021, 1:39 am One of my objections to Eastern philosophy is that like its civilizations it comes across as monolithic hardly ever changing or advancing.

baker wrote: February 13th, 2021, 4:06 pm In some of them, this is actually the point: staying true to the founder, to the original teachings.

New doesn't automatically mean better, or truer.

Tegularius wrote: February 13th, 2021, 11:13 pm It's not a matter of newer. It's a matter of advancement. If the contents of the pot don't get stirred occasionally and sometimes violently with new spices added it will only degenerate. The East has had that problem for centuries on end; a bureaucratic stop so as not to shake the kingdom and ideas that weren't part of the status quo were considered foreign infestations.

Argument by assertion. There are no facts here, only you, asserting your beliefs. There's nothing wrong with that; we all do it every day of our lives; it's unavoidable. But it doesn't form part of a serious philosophical discussion, I don't think. You appear to be offering the bias and prejudice of a typical American, toward a foreign country that scares them (because China owns much of the USA's debt, perhaps?).

Where are the justifications for these opinions of yours? Can we see them?
History of which a majority of Americans know nothing! Also, I'm not American.
The earth has a skin and that skin has diseases; one of its diseases is called man ... Nietzsche
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Re: Eastern Vs Western Philosophy and Religion

Post by Pattern-chaser »

Pattern-chaser wrote: February 14th, 2021, 10:45 am Where are the justifications for these opinions of yours? Can we see them?
Tegularius wrote: February 19th, 2021, 12:02 am History of which a majority of Americans know nothing! Also, I'm not American.
I'm not American either, but you didn't answer the question. What is this history, unknown or otherwise, that justifies your position?
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