Time for God to retire or fade away?

Discuss philosophical questions regarding theism (and atheism), and discuss religion as it relates to philosophy. This includes any philosophical discussions that happen to be about god, gods, or a 'higher power' or the belief of them. This also generally includes philosophical topics about organized or ritualistic mysticism or about organized, common or ritualistic beliefs in the existence of supernatural phenomenon.
Fanman
Posts: 3258
Joined: December 14th, 2011, 9:42 am

Re: Time for God to retire or fade away?

Post by Fanman »

popeye1945,
Excellent, From my limited experience of the faithful, at least some of those people I find not capable of an intellectual life. the repetition and written in stone text appeals to those who function on a level of perhaps an excellent memory, and what they memorize they do want it changing. I also believe that although these people can find bliss in a fantasy life, and in the short term it has a positive effect upon them, the modern world just might not survive the divisiveness and irrationality of these conflicting faiths. May Ali behead you if you disagree with me---lol!!
That’s right. I think that where intellectual rigour is found wanting (without wanting to sound like a snob) the texts provide soothing to a life that can be hard, gritty and unforgiving. Religious people will always point to the efficacy of their beliefs, “I believed, and it worked for me” – then direct you to the correlating scripture. They don’t acknowledge (if they know) that correlation does not necessitate causation. The scientific method gives us falsification, but believers rarely subject what they believe to it. My God came through for me is a common mantra that is used in an argument with non-believers. They see causation between the texts and their lives and they won't be convinced otherwise. I believe their beliefs are a fantasy, at least the parts that deal with mythical beings. Some of the stories act as informative allegories about human nature, but the cost of being a fundamentalist outweighs the gain of wisdom in my view. Of course, you are right, the divisiveness and irrationality of the conflicting faiths is a huge stumbling block, and it has cost countless lives. In that respect, religions need to fade away,
Theists believe, agnostics ponder and atheists analyse. A little bit of each should get us the right answer.
Ecurb
Posts: 2138
Joined: May 9th, 2012, 3:13 pm

Re: Time for God to retire or fade away?

Post by Ecurb »

Fanman wrote: April 30th, 2021, 4:47 am popeye1945,
Excellent, From my limited experience of the faithful, at least some of those people I find not capable of an intellectual life. the repetition and written in stone text appeals to those who function on a level of perhaps an excellent memory, and what they memorize they do want it changing. I also believe that although these people can find bliss in a fantasy life, and in the short term it has a positive effect upon them, the modern world just might not survive the divisiveness and irrationality of these conflicting faiths. May Ali behead you if you disagree with me---lol!!
That’s right. I think that where intellectual rigour is found wanting (without wanting to sound like a snob) the texts provide soothing to a life that can be hard, gritty and unforgiving. Religious people will always point to the efficacy of their beliefs, “I believed, and it worked for me” – then direct you to the correlating scripture. They don’t acknowledge (if they know) that correlation does not necessitate causation. The scientific method gives us falsification, but believers rarely subject what they believe to it. My God came through for me is a common mantra that is used in an argument with non-believers. They see causation between the texts and their lives and they won't be convinced otherwise. I believe their beliefs are a fantasy, at least the parts that deal with mythical beings. Some of the stories act as informative allegories about human nature, but the cost of being a fundamentalist outweighs the gain of wisdom in my view. Of course, you are right, the divisiveness and irrationality of the conflicting faiths is a huge stumbling block, and it has cost countless lives. In that respect, religions need to fade away,
There is a grain of truth here, but it seems that you fail to recognize that the scientific worldview is supported by "it worked for me" more than the religious one is. "Look at the advances in human prosperity and health that can be attributed to advances in science," prate the advocates of science. And they are right! Science has done more than religion to improve the lot of humans. Nonetheless, judging "truth" on the basis of what improves our own comfort, health, and mental well-being may not be the best way to judge. And advocates of science are MORE guilty of this approach than advocates of religion (although, of course, both groups do it).
Fanman
Posts: 3258
Joined: December 14th, 2011, 9:42 am

Re: Time for God to retire or fade away?

Post by Fanman »

Ecurb,

Very good, I agree. But what other modes of recognition for their beliefs do the religious have? The advocates of science can point to its findings to demonstrate that they express the nature of reality. Religious people can only point to their experiences.
Theists believe, agnostics ponder and atheists analyse. A little bit of each should get us the right answer.
popeye1945
Posts: 1110
Joined: October 22nd, 2020, 2:22 am
Favorite Philosopher: Alfred North Whitehead
Location: canada

Re: Time for God to retire or fade away?

Post by popeye1945 »

I had one religious friend confide in me that he lacked the ability to imagine, and it struck me there may be some further application to that insight. The bible if nothing else is a hodgepodge of collective individual flights of imagination patched together rather like the hodgepodge nature of the method. Consider also how little time in the busy lives of believers is devoted to much more than eeking out a living in this life, the poorest most uneducated of the world's population tend to be the most religious. What else do they have?

This might explain the wretchedness of the desert religions arising as they have in such a desolate landscape. The long-term effect of environmental context is most definately at work here, in the nurture of one's mentality. It is an overwhelming problem for regardless of the threat of religious belief is to our further existence on the planet, the physical context that nurtures it is all but total, there is little hope reason will guide the way.
Fanman
Posts: 3258
Joined: December 14th, 2011, 9:42 am

Re: Time for God to retire or fade away?

Post by Fanman »

popeye1945,
I had one religious friend confide in me that he lacked the ability to imagine, and it struck me there may be some further application to that insight. The bible if nothing else is a hodgepodge of collective individual flights of imagination patched together rather like the hodgepodge nature of the method. Consider also how little time in the busy lives of believers is devoted to much more than eeking out a living in this life, the poorest most uneducated of the world's population tend to be the most religious. What else do they have?
How would you reconcile religious belief in those who are not poor or uneducated? Whilst I believe that the majority of educated people are atheists, I would not claim that having beliefs means that someone lacks intelligence (not that you have). I just think that people with beliefs, generally are more amenable or susceptible to the idea of cause and effect. If there were irrefutable evidence that gods do not exist, I believe that some, but not all religious people would accept it. Fundamentalists may dig their heels in, but theists who apply reason to their beliefs may critically think their way out of it.
Theists believe, agnostics ponder and atheists analyse. A little bit of each should get us the right answer.
popeye1945
Posts: 1110
Joined: October 22nd, 2020, 2:22 am
Favorite Philosopher: Alfred North Whitehead
Location: canada

Re: Time for God to retire or fade away?

Post by popeye1945 »

Hi Fanman,

The believer is a creature alot of people try to get a handle on, but mostly fail, if their thinking strays much a field of magical thinking. Still, you will bump into someone now and then that just makes one shake one's head. I do not think your estimate of some of these people that they would be reasonable if only, the if only has been upon us a very long time. I am in a position presently of drifting away from some old friends who have turned born again Christians, a simple conversation becomes one they might be perceive as a threat to their beliefs, the conversation becomes uncomfortable for both parties. I remember hearing one time someone say, you can't reason them out of something they did not reason themselves into. Sad to say they are the majority. I guess you've gathered I am not optimistic about this changing.
Fanman
Posts: 3258
Joined: December 14th, 2011, 9:42 am

Re: Time for God to retire or fade away?

Post by Fanman »

Hi, popeye (I used to love that cartoon)

Fair enough, I didn’t realise that this was your perception of believers. I think that some of them may be capable of seeing the forest from the trees, but that said, I wouldn't hold my breath.
Theists believe, agnostics ponder and atheists analyse. A little bit of each should get us the right answer.
popeye1945
Posts: 1110
Joined: October 22nd, 2020, 2:22 am
Favorite Philosopher: Alfred North Whitehead
Location: canada

Re: Time for God to retire or fade away?

Post by popeye1945 »

It isn't just the irrational beliefs but also the total package of an extended family. Also the positive effect of belonging to society within a society, with the common enemy as the unbeliever. There are a great many perks to belonging, even shared power, lots of feel-good chemicals being released.
Fanman
Posts: 3258
Joined: December 14th, 2011, 9:42 am

Re: Time for God to retire or fade away?

Post by Fanman »

popeye1945,
It isn't just the irrational beliefs but also the total package of an extended family. Also the positive effect of belonging to society within a society, with the common enemy as the unbeliever. There are a great many perks to belonging, even shared power, lots of feel-good chemicals being released.
I don’t agree with theist's beliefs, but I think it is problematic to deny the existence of the supernatural in a world where people openly admit to engaging in different types of supernatural activities. Not everyone will claim that it is nonsense because they experience the efficacy of it. Religious texts provide a frame of reference for the supernatural. Which in some people’s experience is legitimate to them. There is no onus upon anyone to believe experiential accounts because that is our choice. But to refute them on the grounds of empirical methods of detection seems illogical. Because quintessentially, the mechanisms of the supernatural are purportedly not empirical. I believe that the most accurate account that we can get of the possibility of its existence is its efficacy. A substantial amount of people (in terms of there being a demographic) would not engage in something that is of no efficacy or that they don’t derive anything from (as you've pointed out). That is not human nature.
Theists believe, agnostics ponder and atheists analyse. A little bit of each should get us the right answer.
popeye1945
Posts: 1110
Joined: October 22nd, 2020, 2:22 am
Favorite Philosopher: Alfred North Whitehead
Location: canada

Re: Time for God to retire or fade away?

Post by popeye1945 »

Hi Fanman,
The dangerous thing about this, really non-thinking, is one can apply it to any nonsense whatsoever. It is operating on an emotional basis, perhaps that is where it draws its power from. It evolved prior to our ability to think. There is some speculations that it is the foundation of organic development. A little Edgar Allen Poe, "The passions are the elements of life", or Byron I think, "The wisest must mourn the deepest orr the fatal truth, the tree of knowledge is not that of life." Well for most atheists I believe there would be no protest if the religious limited their activities to the spiritual whelm. They however are fair game as a political power, here their intellect appears to be constipated, and a threat to our survival.
Fanman
Posts: 3258
Joined: December 14th, 2011, 9:42 am

Re: Time for God to retire or fade away?

Post by Fanman »

Hi Popeye,

I respect your views, and what you say concerning political power is correct. But as an agnostic, I can’t relate to them as deeply as an atheist would. I agree that the militant aspect of religions is extremely dangerous and so should “fade away”. But the way I see things is that we cannot paint all religious people with the same brush. Not all of them see non-believers or science as the enemy, rather that they need to be “saved” and incorporated, respectively. They do presume too much, but no subset of human beings is without error or presuppositions. Same species, same strengths and weaknesses.
Theists believe, agnostics ponder and atheists analyse. A little bit of each should get us the right answer.
User avatar
Thomyum2
Posts: 366
Joined: June 10th, 2019, 4:21 pm
Favorite Philosopher: Robert Pirsig + William James

Re: Time for God to retire or fade away?

Post by Thomyum2 »

Fanman wrote: May 4th, 2021, 5:47 am Hi Popeye,

I respect your views, and what you say concerning political power is correct. But as an agnostic, I can’t relate to them as deeply as an atheist would. I agree that the militant aspect of religions is extremely dangerous and so should “fade away”. But the way I see things is that we cannot paint all religious people with the same brush. Not all of them see non-believers or science as the enemy, rather that they need to be “saved” and incorporated, respectively. They do presume too much, but no subset of human beings is without error or presuppositions. Same species, same strengths and weaknesses.
I agree and I think you'd said this well, Fanman. I find the claim that religious belief is irrational or that people of faith are unthinking or close-minded to be an overly broad generalization, even a stereotype, that reflects a rather shallow understanding of the role of religion in human life. I can say from my own experience that a more careful investigation of the work of the many who have thought and written seriously about religion - Thomas Merton, Reinhold Niebuhr, GK Chesterton, Henri Nouwen, Paul Tillich, Frederick Buchner, Søren Kierkegaard to name just a few that come to mind - or spending some time speaking in depth with individuals, e.g. monks or clergy, who have devoted their lives to serious religious thought and practice should reveal to an open-minded person that there is much more to religion and the people who practice it than can easily be summed up in a few general statements.

Among the religious, you will certain find those who insist on the literal truth of scripture, and this can be a frustrating - even dangerous, as you've pointed out - thing in the modern world. People such as this tend to be outspoken about their beliefs, but I think they are a vocal minority that shouldn't be taken as speaking for everyone. There are plenty of others who see scripture as intended to express or inform an understanding of our experience of life and relationships with each other, and not serve as objective or scientific facts about the world. But irrational beliefs are found through humanity and aren't just particular to the religious. I imagine if you surveyed atheists and believers alike, you would likely find a comparable share of people in both populations who cling to unfounded beliefs.
“We have two ears and one mouth so that we can listen twice as much as we speak.”
— Epictetus
Fanman
Posts: 3258
Joined: December 14th, 2011, 9:42 am

Re: Time for God to retire or fade away?

Post by Fanman »

Thomyum2,

Thank you for saying that.

I agree with you (nicely articulated :) ). When some people reflect or introspect, they see meaning in things that may or may not have any. The scriptures provide a frame of reference, so they base their reflections and introspections on those frameworks. As people, we like what we think to be verified. In my experience, atheists tend to categorise believers in a negative way. That is justified in some cases, but not in all cases, as you've pointed out. Because they “know” that theists are wrong, they perceive them as unintellectual or plain stupid. But if someone’s experiences reflect what their scriptures tell them, I can understand why they believe - they perceive cause and effect. In my view, religious texts are half-truths. They testify accurately to the nature of life - but also embellish with mythology. Literal interpretation can lead to all kinds of trouble - we all acknowledge that. As adults, unless there is the unlikely event of something miraculous happening in their lives, they should take their religious texts with a dose of salt - as an allegory. Of course, all of this could be nonsense, as the theists could be right!
Theists believe, agnostics ponder and atheists analyse. A little bit of each should get us the right answer.
Post Reply

Return to “Philosophy of Religion, Theism and Mythology”

2023/2024 Philosophy Books of the Month

Entanglement - Quantum and Otherwise

Entanglement - Quantum and Otherwise
by John K Danenbarger
January 2023

Mark Victor Hansen, Relentless: Wisdom Behind the Incomparable Chicken Soup for the Soul

Mark Victor Hansen, Relentless: Wisdom Behind the Incomparable Chicken Soup for the Soul
by Mitzi Perdue
February 2023

Rediscovering the Wisdom of Human Nature: How Civilization Destroys Happiness

Rediscovering the Wisdom of Human Nature: How Civilization Destroys Happiness
by Chet Shupe
March 2023

The Unfakeable Code®

The Unfakeable Code®
by Tony Jeton Selimi
April 2023

The Book: On the Taboo Against Knowing Who You Are

The Book: On the Taboo Against Knowing Who You Are
by Alan Watts
May 2023

Killing Abel

Killing Abel
by Michael Tieman
June 2023

Reconfigurement: Reconfiguring Your Life at Any Stage and Planning Ahead

Reconfigurement: Reconfiguring Your Life at Any Stage and Planning Ahead
by E. Alan Fleischauer
July 2023

First Survivor: The Impossible Childhood Cancer Breakthrough

First Survivor: The Impossible Childhood Cancer Breakthrough
by Mark Unger
August 2023

Predictably Irrational

Predictably Irrational
by Dan Ariely
September 2023

Artwords

Artwords
by Beatriz M. Robles
November 2023

Fireproof Happiness: Extinguishing Anxiety & Igniting Hope

Fireproof Happiness: Extinguishing Anxiety & Igniting Hope
by Dr. Randy Ross
December 2023

Beyond the Golden Door: Seeing the American Dream Through an Immigrant's Eyes

Beyond the Golden Door: Seeing the American Dream Through an Immigrant's Eyes
by Ali Master
February 2024

2022 Philosophy Books of the Month

Emotional Intelligence At Work

Emotional Intelligence At Work
by Richard M Contino & Penelope J Holt
January 2022

Free Will, Do You Have It?

Free Will, Do You Have It?
by Albertus Kral
February 2022

My Enemy in Vietnam

My Enemy in Vietnam
by Billy Springer
March 2022

2X2 on the Ark

2X2 on the Ark
by Mary J Giuffra, PhD
April 2022

The Maestro Monologue

The Maestro Monologue
by Rob White
May 2022

What Makes America Great

What Makes America Great
by Bob Dowell
June 2022

The Truth Is Beyond Belief!

The Truth Is Beyond Belief!
by Jerry Durr
July 2022

Living in Color

Living in Color
by Mike Murphy
August 2022 (tentative)

The Not So Great American Novel

The Not So Great American Novel
by James E Doucette
September 2022

Mary Jane Whiteley Coggeshall, Hicksite Quaker, Iowa/National Suffragette And Her Speeches

Mary Jane Whiteley Coggeshall, Hicksite Quaker, Iowa/National Suffragette And Her Speeches
by John N. (Jake) Ferris
October 2022

In It Together: The Beautiful Struggle Uniting Us All

In It Together: The Beautiful Struggle Uniting Us All
by Eckhart Aurelius Hughes
November 2022

The Smartest Person in the Room: The Root Cause and New Solution for Cybersecurity

The Smartest Person in the Room
by Christian Espinosa
December 2022

2021 Philosophy Books of the Month

The Biblical Clock: The Untold Secrets Linking the Universe and Humanity with God's Plan

The Biblical Clock
by Daniel Friedmann
March 2021

Wilderness Cry: A Scientific and Philosophical Approach to Understanding God and the Universe

Wilderness Cry
by Dr. Hilary L Hunt M.D.
April 2021

Fear Not, Dream Big, & Execute: Tools To Spark Your Dream And Ignite Your Follow-Through

Fear Not, Dream Big, & Execute
by Jeff Meyer
May 2021

Surviving the Business of Healthcare: Knowledge is Power

Surviving the Business of Healthcare
by Barbara Galutia Regis M.S. PA-C
June 2021

Winning the War on Cancer: The Epic Journey Towards a Natural Cure

Winning the War on Cancer
by Sylvie Beljanski
July 2021

Defining Moments of a Free Man from a Black Stream

Defining Moments of a Free Man from a Black Stream
by Dr Frank L Douglas
August 2021

If Life Stinks, Get Your Head Outta Your Buts

If Life Stinks, Get Your Head Outta Your Buts
by Mark L. Wdowiak
September 2021

The Preppers Medical Handbook

The Preppers Medical Handbook
by Dr. William W Forgey M.D.
October 2021

Natural Relief for Anxiety and Stress: A Practical Guide

Natural Relief for Anxiety and Stress
by Dr. Gustavo Kinrys, MD
November 2021

Dream For Peace: An Ambassador Memoir

Dream For Peace
by Dr. Ghoulem Berrah
December 2021