That’s right. I think that where intellectual rigour is found wanting (without wanting to sound like a snob) the texts provide soothing to a life that can be hard, gritty and unforgiving. Religious people will always point to the efficacy of their beliefs, “I believed, and it worked for me” – then direct you to the correlating scripture. They don’t acknowledge (if they know) that correlation does not necessitate causation. The scientific method gives us falsification, but believers rarely subject what they believe to it. My God came through for me is a common mantra that is used in an argument with non-believers. They see causation between the texts and their lives and they won't be convinced otherwise. I believe their beliefs are a fantasy, at least the parts that deal with mythical beings. Some of the stories act as informative allegories about human nature, but the cost of being a fundamentalist outweighs the gain of wisdom in my view. Of course, you are right, the divisiveness and irrationality of the conflicting faiths is a huge stumbling block, and it has cost countless lives. In that respect, religions need to fade away,Excellent, From my limited experience of the faithful, at least some of those people I find not capable of an intellectual life. the repetition and written in stone text appeals to those who function on a level of perhaps an excellent memory, and what they memorize they do want it changing. I also believe that although these people can find bliss in a fantasy life, and in the short term it has a positive effect upon them, the modern world just might not survive the divisiveness and irrationality of these conflicting faiths. May Ali behead you if you disagree with me---lol!!
Time for God to retire or fade away?
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Re: Time for God to retire or fade away?
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Re: Time for God to retire or fade away?
There is a grain of truth here, but it seems that you fail to recognize that the scientific worldview is supported by "it worked for me" more than the religious one is. "Look at the advances in human prosperity and health that can be attributed to advances in science," prate the advocates of science. And they are right! Science has done more than religion to improve the lot of humans. Nonetheless, judging "truth" on the basis of what improves our own comfort, health, and mental well-being may not be the best way to judge. And advocates of science are MORE guilty of this approach than advocates of religion (although, of course, both groups do it).Fanman wrote: ↑April 30th, 2021, 4:47 am popeye1945,
That’s right. I think that where intellectual rigour is found wanting (without wanting to sound like a snob) the texts provide soothing to a life that can be hard, gritty and unforgiving. Religious people will always point to the efficacy of their beliefs, “I believed, and it worked for me” – then direct you to the correlating scripture. They don’t acknowledge (if they know) that correlation does not necessitate causation. The scientific method gives us falsification, but believers rarely subject what they believe to it. My God came through for me is a common mantra that is used in an argument with non-believers. They see causation between the texts and their lives and they won't be convinced otherwise. I believe their beliefs are a fantasy, at least the parts that deal with mythical beings. Some of the stories act as informative allegories about human nature, but the cost of being a fundamentalist outweighs the gain of wisdom in my view. Of course, you are right, the divisiveness and irrationality of the conflicting faiths is a huge stumbling block, and it has cost countless lives. In that respect, religions need to fade away,Excellent, From my limited experience of the faithful, at least some of those people I find not capable of an intellectual life. the repetition and written in stone text appeals to those who function on a level of perhaps an excellent memory, and what they memorize they do want it changing. I also believe that although these people can find bliss in a fantasy life, and in the short term it has a positive effect upon them, the modern world just might not survive the divisiveness and irrationality of these conflicting faiths. May Ali behead you if you disagree with me---lol!!
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Re: Time for God to retire or fade away?
Very good, I agree. But what other modes of recognition for their beliefs do the religious have? The advocates of science can point to its findings to demonstrate that they express the nature of reality. Religious people can only point to their experiences.
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Re: Time for God to retire or fade away?
This might explain the wretchedness of the desert religions arising as they have in such a desolate landscape. The long-term effect of environmental context is most definately at work here, in the nurture of one's mentality. It is an overwhelming problem for regardless of the threat of religious belief is to our further existence on the planet, the physical context that nurtures it is all but total, there is little hope reason will guide the way.
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Re: Time for God to retire or fade away?
How would you reconcile religious belief in those who are not poor or uneducated? Whilst I believe that the majority of educated people are atheists, I would not claim that having beliefs means that someone lacks intelligence (not that you have). I just think that people with beliefs, generally are more amenable or susceptible to the idea of cause and effect. If there were irrefutable evidence that gods do not exist, I believe that some, but not all religious people would accept it. Fundamentalists may dig their heels in, but theists who apply reason to their beliefs may critically think their way out of it.I had one religious friend confide in me that he lacked the ability to imagine, and it struck me there may be some further application to that insight. The bible if nothing else is a hodgepodge of collective individual flights of imagination patched together rather like the hodgepodge nature of the method. Consider also how little time in the busy lives of believers is devoted to much more than eeking out a living in this life, the poorest most uneducated of the world's population tend to be the most religious. What else do they have?
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Re: Time for God to retire or fade away?
The believer is a creature alot of people try to get a handle on, but mostly fail, if their thinking strays much a field of magical thinking. Still, you will bump into someone now and then that just makes one shake one's head. I do not think your estimate of some of these people that they would be reasonable if only, the if only has been upon us a very long time. I am in a position presently of drifting away from some old friends who have turned born again Christians, a simple conversation becomes one they might be perceive as a threat to their beliefs, the conversation becomes uncomfortable for both parties. I remember hearing one time someone say, you can't reason them out of something they did not reason themselves into. Sad to say they are the majority. I guess you've gathered I am not optimistic about this changing.
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Re: Time for God to retire or fade away?
Fair enough, I didn’t realise that this was your perception of believers. I think that some of them may be capable of seeing the forest from the trees, but that said, I wouldn't hold my breath.
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Re: Time for God to retire or fade away?
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Re: Time for God to retire or fade away?
I don’t agree with theist's beliefs, but I think it is problematic to deny the existence of the supernatural in a world where people openly admit to engaging in different types of supernatural activities. Not everyone will claim that it is nonsense because they experience the efficacy of it. Religious texts provide a frame of reference for the supernatural. Which in some people’s experience is legitimate to them. There is no onus upon anyone to believe experiential accounts because that is our choice. But to refute them on the grounds of empirical methods of detection seems illogical. Because quintessentially, the mechanisms of the supernatural are purportedly not empirical. I believe that the most accurate account that we can get of the possibility of its existence is its efficacy. A substantial amount of people (in terms of there being a demographic) would not engage in something that is of no efficacy or that they don’t derive anything from (as you've pointed out). That is not human nature.It isn't just the irrational beliefs but also the total package of an extended family. Also the positive effect of belonging to society within a society, with the common enemy as the unbeliever. There are a great many perks to belonging, even shared power, lots of feel-good chemicals being released.
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Re: Time for God to retire or fade away?
The dangerous thing about this, really non-thinking, is one can apply it to any nonsense whatsoever. It is operating on an emotional basis, perhaps that is where it draws its power from. It evolved prior to our ability to think. There is some speculations that it is the foundation of organic development. A little Edgar Allen Poe, "The passions are the elements of life", or Byron I think, "The wisest must mourn the deepest orr the fatal truth, the tree of knowledge is not that of life." Well for most atheists I believe there would be no protest if the religious limited their activities to the spiritual whelm. They however are fair game as a political power, here their intellect appears to be constipated, and a threat to our survival.
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Re: Time for God to retire or fade away?
I respect your views, and what you say concerning political power is correct. But as an agnostic, I can’t relate to them as deeply as an atheist would. I agree that the militant aspect of religions is extremely dangerous and so should “fade away”. But the way I see things is that we cannot paint all religious people with the same brush. Not all of them see non-believers or science as the enemy, rather that they need to be “saved” and incorporated, respectively. They do presume too much, but no subset of human beings is without error or presuppositions. Same species, same strengths and weaknesses.
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Re: Time for God to retire or fade away?
I agree and I think you'd said this well, Fanman. I find the claim that religious belief is irrational or that people of faith are unthinking or close-minded to be an overly broad generalization, even a stereotype, that reflects a rather shallow understanding of the role of religion in human life. I can say from my own experience that a more careful investigation of the work of the many who have thought and written seriously about religion - Thomas Merton, Reinhold Niebuhr, GK Chesterton, Henri Nouwen, Paul Tillich, Frederick Buchner, Søren Kierkegaard to name just a few that come to mind - or spending some time speaking in depth with individuals, e.g. monks or clergy, who have devoted their lives to serious religious thought and practice should reveal to an open-minded person that there is much more to religion and the people who practice it than can easily be summed up in a few general statements.Fanman wrote: ↑May 4th, 2021, 5:47 am Hi Popeye,
I respect your views, and what you say concerning political power is correct. But as an agnostic, I can’t relate to them as deeply as an atheist would. I agree that the militant aspect of religions is extremely dangerous and so should “fade away”. But the way I see things is that we cannot paint all religious people with the same brush. Not all of them see non-believers or science as the enemy, rather that they need to be “saved” and incorporated, respectively. They do presume too much, but no subset of human beings is without error or presuppositions. Same species, same strengths and weaknesses.
Among the religious, you will certain find those who insist on the literal truth of scripture, and this can be a frustrating - even dangerous, as you've pointed out - thing in the modern world. People such as this tend to be outspoken about their beliefs, but I think they are a vocal minority that shouldn't be taken as speaking for everyone. There are plenty of others who see scripture as intended to express or inform an understanding of our experience of life and relationships with each other, and not serve as objective or scientific facts about the world. But irrational beliefs are found through humanity and aren't just particular to the religious. I imagine if you surveyed atheists and believers alike, you would likely find a comparable share of people in both populations who cling to unfounded beliefs.
— Epictetus
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Re: Time for God to retire or fade away?
Thank you for saying that.
I agree with you (nicely articulated ). When some people reflect or introspect, they see meaning in things that may or may not have any. The scriptures provide a frame of reference, so they base their reflections and introspections on those frameworks. As people, we like what we think to be verified. In my experience, atheists tend to categorise believers in a negative way. That is justified in some cases, but not in all cases, as you've pointed out. Because they “know” that theists are wrong, they perceive them as unintellectual or plain stupid. But if someone’s experiences reflect what their scriptures tell them, I can understand why they believe - they perceive cause and effect. In my view, religious texts are half-truths. They testify accurately to the nature of life - but also embellish with mythology. Literal interpretation can lead to all kinds of trouble - we all acknowledge that. As adults, unless there is the unlikely event of something miraculous happening in their lives, they should take their religious texts with a dose of salt - as an allegory. Of course, all of this could be nonsense, as the theists could be right!
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