Why did God create the universe?

Discuss philosophical questions regarding theism (and atheism), and discuss religion as it relates to philosophy. This includes any philosophical discussions that happen to be about god, gods, or a 'higher power' or the belief of them. This also generally includes philosophical topics about organized or ritualistic mysticism or about organized, common or ritualistic beliefs in the existence of supernatural phenomenon.
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Fanman
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Re: Why did God create the universe?

Post by Fanman »

Zosimus,

Fundamentally, I don't believe it is rational to argue that 'water elementals' exist. I would not request evidence for such a claim, because it is self-evident that they don't.
Well, Jean Jacque Rousseau would hasten to disagree with you. Still, the point of the comment was not that God existed but rather that if you simply allow "it makes sense" as an argument for yourself (in favor of evidentialism) then you have to allow everyone to argue "it just makes sense" — and where will we be then? Will we end up believing in astrology, Buddhism, Christianity, Islam, and Satanism simultaneously?
No, that is not the case, and this requires too much unpacking. The discussion is related to an idea being put on trial. For such an idea, it is both reasonable and logical to request evidence.
This is a false dichotomy. You know, it is possible to simply not decide whether something is true or false. Personally, I accept almost everything anyone says unless it strongly contradicts something I know to be true.
How do you know if something is true?
Theists believe, agnostics ponder and atheists analyse. A little bit of each should get us the right answer.
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Sy Borg
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Re: Why did God create the universe?

Post by Sy Borg »

Zosimus, that last one is a false comparison and easily disproved with your own methods:

SyBorg: Hey, Zosimus, if you lend me $500 now I will pay you double next week.
Zosimus: Why would you do that?
SyBorg: I started a new job. It pays great but they haven't paid me for six weeks. The pay is coming through next week, but my rent is due today.
Zosimus: Sure, I believe you. I don't need any evidence. Here's the $500. Good luck with it.
SyBorg: Thanks Zos, you're a lifesaver! You won't be sorry!
Zosimus: So, when do you think you will be able to ...
Zosimus: SyBorg? Where'd you go?? Sy Boooooooooorg!
Zosimus: Dammit.

Evidence is required when the matter is important. The ideas that govern our lives are important, thus we require evidence.
Zosimus
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Re: Why did God create the universe?

Post by Zosimus »

Fanman wrote: June 16th, 2021, 3:04 pmFundamentally, I don't believe it is rational to argue that 'water elementals' exist. I would not request evidence for such a claim, because it is self-evident that they don't.
You see? This is exactly my complaint. If people want to argue for or against something, you require evidence from them. However, you exempt yourself from your own requirement. You can simply say "It is self-evident that they don't."

You don't get to have one set of rules for yourself and a different set of rules for everyone else.
No, that is not the case, and this requires too much unpacking. The discussion is related to an idea being put on trial. For such an idea, it is both reasonable and logical to request evidence.
But, what will this evidence tell you? Admittedly, if I theorize that heavy objects fall twice as fast as do light ones, we can pretty quickly prove that false with one single test. But, what if I want to prove "All humans eventually die." Will I have to observe all humans — past, present, and future — to determine that there isn't one Duncan MacLeod lurking out there somewhere, quite simply incapable of death? What is the point of asking for evidence if nothing less than an infinite amount is required?
How do you know if something is true?
Well, let's start at the beginning. How do we even know that truth exists? Well, let's suppose that we decide to be contrary and claim "Truth does not exist." By saying so, I am asserting that the statement "Truth does not exist" is true. So, we have proof by contradiction and can conclude that truth exists. Note that this was accomplished without an appeal to evidence. Indeed, evidence is pointless unless it is inserted into a valid logical structure. Yet, many people assert that evidence is required to put something "on trial." Great. Let's put the idea that "Evidence is required to put something on trial" on trial. What evidence do you offer? And don't say, "It's just self-evident" because that's a cop-out.
Zosimus
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Re: Why did God create the universe?

Post by Zosimus »

Sy Borg wrote: June 16th, 2021, 9:25 pm Zosimus, that last one is a false comparison and easily disproved with your own methods:

SyBorg: Hey, Zosimus, if you lend me $500 now I will pay you double next week.
Zosimus: Why would you do that?
SyBorg: I started a new job. It pays great but they haven't paid me for six weeks. The pay is coming through next week, but my rent is due today.
Zosimus: Sure, I believe you. I don't need any evidence. Here's the $500. Good luck with it.
SyBorg: Thanks Zos, you're a lifesaver! You won't be sorry!
Zosimus: So, when do you think you will be able to ...
Zosimus: SyBorg? Where'd you go?? Sy Boooooooooorg!
Zosimus: Dammit.

Evidence is required when the matter is important. The ideas that govern our lives are important, thus we require evidence.
Well, there are a few obvious flaws with your dialogue, not the least of which is that charging 100% interest for a week violates the usury laws of where I live. But, I suppose that the point of your dialogue is that I should require evidence that this guy is going to get paid or that he is going to pay me. In reality, no evidence is required. I could simply require collateral. Bring your computer here and leave it in my office. When you get paid, you can have your computer back. So, how exactly is your example evidence for evidence?

Let's take another example. Imagine that we are lost in the desert. We haven't drunk anything for two days. Then, we stumble across an oasis.

Zosimus: Thank God! Water! Let's drink.
Sy Borg: There is no God! And anyway, what evidence do we have that the water is safe to drink?
Zosimus: I really don't care. If I don't drink something, I'm probably dead anyway. I'm prepared to take the risk.
Sy Borg: Don't you remember when I said that evidence is required when the matter is important? This is an important matter! We must have evidence.

And that's how Sy Borg died from dehydration while sitting two feet from water.
Fanman
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Re: Why did God create the universe?

Post by Fanman »

Zosimus.

I said:
Fundamentally, I don't believe it is rational to argue that 'water elementals' exist. I would not request evidence for such a claim, because it is self-evident that they don't.
You replied:
You see? This is exactly my complaint. If people want to argue for or against something, you require evidence from them. However, you exempt yourself from your own requirement. You can simply say "It is self-evident that they don't."

You don't get to have one set of rules for yourself and a different set of rules for everyone else.
How did you come to the conclusion that I inferred this?
But, what will this evidence tell you? Admittedly, if I theorize that heavy objects fall twice as fast as do light ones, we can pretty quickly prove that false with one single test. But, what if I want to prove "All humans eventually die." Will I have to observe all humans — past, present, and future — to determine that there isn't one Duncan MacLeod lurking out there somewhere, quite simply incapable of death? What is the point of asking for evidence if nothing less than an infinite amount is required?
You don’t have to do all of that because it is reasonable to assume that all humans eventually die.
Let's put the idea that "Evidence is required to put something on trial" on trial. What evidence do you offer? And don't say, "It's just self-evident" because that's a cop-out.
If an idea is being put on trial and there is evidence to support it, what logical reason is there not to bring the evidence into account? Evidence supporting the idea not only justifies it but also confirms its validity. I don’t understand why you would want to argue against that or have a problem with it. What would you suggest that people do with evidence?
Theists believe, agnostics ponder and atheists analyse. A little bit of each should get us the right answer.
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Sy Borg
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Re: Why did God create the universe?

Post by Sy Borg »

Zosimus wrote: June 18th, 2021, 8:06 am
Sy Borg wrote: June 16th, 2021, 9:25 pm Zosimus, that last one is a false comparison and easily disproved with your own methods:

SyBorg: Hey, Zosimus, if you lend me $500 now I will pay you double next week.
Zosimus: Why would you do that?
SyBorg: I started a new job. It pays great but they haven't paid me for six weeks. The pay is coming through next week, but my rent is due today.
Zosimus: Sure, I believe you. I don't need any evidence. Here's the $500. Good luck with it.
SyBorg: Thanks Zos, you're a lifesaver! You won't be sorry!
Zosimus: So, when do you think you will be able to ...
Zosimus: SyBorg? Where'd you go?? Sy Boooooooooorg!
Zosimus: Dammit.

Evidence is required when the matter is important. The ideas that govern our lives are important, thus we require evidence.
Well, there are a few obvious flaws with your dialogue, not the least of which is that charging 100% interest for a week violates the usury laws of where I live. But, I suppose that the point of your dialogue is that I should require evidence that this guy is going to get paid or that he is going to pay me. In reality, no evidence is required. I could simply require collateral. Bring your computer here and leave it in my office. When you get paid, you can have your computer back. So, how exactly is your example evidence for evidence?
Well, I have no reason to believe you because you made claims but you put up no collateral. You have helped to illustrate my point. There is no cost to you if you are wrong.

Zosimus wrote: June 18th, 2021, 8:06 amLet's take another example. Imagine that we are lost in the desert. We haven't drunk anything for two days. Then, we stumble across an oasis.

Zosimus: Thank God! Water! Let's drink.
Sy Borg: There is no God! And anyway, what evidence do we have that the water is safe to drink?
Zosimus: I really don't care. If I don't drink something, I'm probably dead anyway. I'm prepared to take the risk.
Sy Borg: Don't you remember when I said that evidence is required when the matter is important? This is an important matter! We must have evidence.

And that's how Sy Borg died from dehydration while sitting two feet from water.
Your example does not work. If dehydrated, I would need evidence that the water was unsafe. That would require a smell test and then a a taste test.

Question is, why would you believe the claims of warlike Middle Eastern people of 2,000 years ago over, say, Chinese people of 1,000 years ago, or Indians 4,000 years ago, or Aztecs 1,500 years ago? As far as I can tell, Middle Eastern religions spread around the world, not because of the quality of its teachings, but through the Middle East being a critical trade route and Constantine's hallucinations.

Christianity, strikes me as less intelligent and sophisticated than Buddhism, Hinduism, Taoism and even Judaism, relying on emotion rather than understanding for spiritual attainments.
Zosimus
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Re: Why did God create the universe?

Post by Zosimus »

Fanman wrote: June 18th, 2021, 10:43 amHow did you come to the conclusion that I inferred this?
It's quite easy. You said "I would not request evidence for such a claim, because it is self-evident that they don't."

Then I said, "What is the point of asking for evidence if nothing less than an infinite amount is required?

Then you said, "You don’t have to do all of that because it is reasonable to assume that all humans eventually die."

So, apparently, anything that is "self-evident" or "reasonable to assume" is true in Fanman world. Just like it's self-evident that the universe must have had a Creator and reasonable to assume that God is that Creator.

Let me guess. You're going to say, "What I say is self-evident is self-evident, but what you say is self-evident is not self-evident." Am I right?
If an idea is being put on trial and there is evidence to support it, what logical reason is there not to bring the evidence into account? Evidence supporting the idea not only justifies it but also confirms its validity. I don’t understand why you would want to argue against that or have a problem with it. What would you suggest that people do with evidence?
I think that you're fundamentally missing the point. The question is: Is there evidence for evidence? I want to put the idea "We need evidence" on trial. Wasn't it you who said that the way to put an idea on trial is to accumulate evidence? So, where's the evidence?
Zosimus
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Re: Why did God create the universe?

Post by Zosimus »

Sy Borg wrote: June 18th, 2021, 5:48 pmWell, I have no reason to believe you because you made claims but you put up no collateral. You have helped to illustrate my point. There is no cost to you if you are wrong.
If that's the point of your story, then it's a pretty poor story. You can go ahead and gather evidence as to whether the person is actually going to get paid tomorrow. Personally, I don't care. If I have collateral, I don't need evidence. Let him not pay. Who cares?
Your example does not work. If dehydrated, I would need evidence that the water was unsafe. That would require a smell test and then a a taste test.
I know exactly how you feel. You remind me of Christians who reason that they need evidence that God doesn't exist. You know, it reminds me of Pascal's Wager. Since atheism leads to dead and rotting in the ground, maybe we should just put our money on God. We may be wrong, but we will be no worse off than a thirsty man in the desert drinking water that might be unsafe.
Christianity, strikes me as less intelligent and sophisticated than Buddhism, Hinduism, Taoism and even Judaism, relying on emotion rather than understanding for spiritual attainments.
Oh, ok. So, no evidence required. It simply has to strike you as less intelligent and sophisticated. For example, if evolution struck me as less intelligent and sophisticated than the idea that God created the universe, that would be good enough, right?
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Sy Borg
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Re: Why did God create the universe?

Post by Sy Borg »

Zosimus wrote: June 18th, 2021, 7:33 pm
Sy Borg wrote: June 18th, 2021, 5:48 pmWell, I have no reason to believe you because you made claims but you put up no collateral. You have helped to illustrate my point. There is no cost to you if you are wrong.
If that's the point of your story, then it's a pretty poor story. You can go ahead and gather evidence as to whether the person is actually going to get paid tomorrow. Personally, I don't care. If I have collateral, I don't need evidence. Let him not pay. Who cares?
Requiring collateral is the same as requiring evidence, so you have proved my point. Why do you require evidence when it comes to small sums of money, yet you need no evidence at all to adopt beliefs that affect your entire life?


Zosimus wrote: June 18th, 2021, 7:33 pm
Your example does not work. If dehydrated, I would need evidence that the water was unsafe. That would require a smell test and then a a taste test.
I know exactly how you feel. You remind me of Christians who reason that they need evidence that God doesn't exist. You know, it reminds me of Pascal's Wager. Since atheism leads to dead and rotting in the ground, maybe we should just put our money on God. We may be wrong, but we will be no worse off than a thirsty man in the desert drinking water that might be unsafe.
No, if I t remind you of such Christians, then you are wildly wrong. The fact is that this is a philosophy forum, where claims are expected to be backed by evidence. Otherwise people will make any manner of claims, so unsubstantiated claims must be challenged.

Pacal's wager is absurd. If God exists, it won't be clueless enough to be fooled by a post-ape's transparent manipulations?

Zosimus wrote: June 18th, 2021, 7:33 pm
Christianity, strikes me as less intelligent and sophisticated than Buddhism, Hinduism, Taoism and even Judaism, relying on emotion rather than understanding for spiritual attainments.
Oh, ok. So, no evidence required. It simply has to strike you as less intelligent and sophisticated. For example, if evolution struck me as less intelligent and sophisticated than the idea that God created the universe, that would be good enough, right?
We gain impressions over the years. So often I have have seen examples of blatant stupidity, dishonesty and manipulativeness in many, many Christian claims over the years. And every time their dodgy claims are disproved, they NEVER admit being wrong! It's always just a quiet revision of claims so that the God of the Gaps remains possible.

Evolution is obviously real, so what anyone thinks of it doesn't matter. Evolution is indisputable in every possible way - with literal mountains of evidence for and absolutely zero evidence against. Evolution is basically the same process as biological development to maturity, albeit writ large, applying to the entire biosphere. Imagine life without evolution. It would be like being conceived and never changing, never growing from zygote to embryo to foetus to baby to child to teen to adult to dead meat.

If a gods exists, evolution is its main tool. In fact, fundamentalist Christian denial of evolution is one of the best examples of the inherent naiveté of Abrahamic religions as compared with more thoroughly developed and more sophisticated far eastern counterparts, which pragmatically acknowledge natural dynamics. Fundamentalist Abrahamics, on the other hand, pretend that the phenomena don't exist to justify their literal reading of obviously metaphorical passages of the Bible.
Fanman
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Re: Why did God create the universe?

Post by Fanman »

Zosimus,
It's quite easy. You said "I would not request evidence for such a claim, because it is self-evident that they don't."

Then I said, "What is the point of asking for evidence if nothing less than an infinite amount is required?

Then you said, "You don’t have to do all of that because it is reasonable to assume that all humans eventually die."
That is not how the conversation went.

Therefore the following:
So, apparently, anything that is "self-evident" or "reasonable to assume" is true in Fanman world. Just like it's self-evident that the universe must have had a Creator and reasonable to assume that God is that Creator.

Let me guess. You're going to say, "What I say is self-evident is self-evident, but what you say is self-evident is not self-evident." Am I right?
Is not an accurate conclusion. You're just creating a straw man.
I think that you're fundamentally missing the point. The question is: Is there evidence for evidence? I want to put the idea "We need evidence" on trial. Wasn't it you who said that the way to put an idea on trial is to accumulate evidence? So, where's the evidence?
If you can’t see why we need evidence that’s your issue. Also, I did not say what you have claimed I said. You have consistently misconstrued and misquoted me. Therefore, this is where I will end our discussion.
Theists believe, agnostics ponder and atheists analyse. A little bit of each should get us the right answer.
Fanman
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Re: Why did God create the universe?

Post by Fanman »

Zosimus,

One last point.

I said:
If an idea is being put on trial and there is evidence to support it, what logical reason is there not to bring the evidence into account? Evidence supporting the idea not only justifies it but also confirms its validity. I don’t understand why you would want to argue against that or have a problem with it. What would you suggest that people do with evidence?
You replied:
I think that you're fundamentally missing the point. The question is: Is there evidence for evidence? I want to put the idea "We need evidence" [my emphasis] on trial. Wasn't it you who said that the way to put an idea on trial is to accumulate evidence? So, where's the evidence?
Therefore (aside from the misquoting), from my perspective it seems as though it is you who is fundamentally missing the point.
Theists believe, agnostics ponder and atheists analyse. A little bit of each should get us the right answer.
Tegularius
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Re: Why did God create the universe?

Post by Tegularius »

This is what's so consistently wrong with philosophy forums...all over. There is more effort expended in arguing with idiots then with a principle or an interesting idea which requires more elaboration or perspective without indulging the constant distortions which are always so obvious in the desperation to win an argument.
The earth has a skin and that skin has diseases; one of its diseases is called man ... Nietzsche
gad-fly
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Re: Why did God create the universe?

Post by gad-fly »

Tegularius wrote: June 12th, 2021, 2:02 am
Whenever an idea is put on trial evidence is required to confirm or deny. In the case of an actual unscriptured god appearance, nothing of the kind ever showed up.
The topic raised by me is Why did God create the universe. The idea is that God has created the universe, and on this premise, I am asking: why did he do it?

Without pondering on the question, many of you are more interested in the idea, but not the question, to my disappointment. Fine. I can understand.

I totally agree with your point that Evidence is required (or essential) to confirm or deny an idea. With moderation, I would say support or refute an idea. "Nothing ever showed up?" I am not so sure about that. Suffice to say that you have never personally experienced or read such showing up. Did Jesus not walk on water, and did he not make the blind see, as written on the Bible? No, you would say, because it is not true, or rather, it has not happened. You may be right. But if it did happen, the event including its outcome is evidence of God's existence, though not necessarily his creation.
AverageBozo
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Re: Why did God create the universe?

Post by AverageBozo »

gad-fly wrote: June 19th, 2021, 7:26 pm
Tegularius wrote: June 12th, 2021, 2:02 am
Whenever an idea is put on trial evidence is required to confirm or deny. In the case of an actual unscriptured god appearance, nothing of the kind ever showed up.
The topic raised by me is Why did God create the universe. The idea is that God has created the universe, and on this premise, I am asking: why did he do it?

Without pondering on the question, many of you are more interested in the idea, but not the question, to my disappointment. Fine. I can understand.

I totally agree with your point that Evidence is required (or essential) to confirm or deny an idea. With moderation, I would say support or refute an idea. "Nothing ever showed up?" I am not so sure about that. Suffice to say that you have never personally experienced or read such showing up. Did Jesus not walk on water, and did he not make the blind see, as written on the Bible? No, you would say, because it is not true, or rather, it has not happened. You may be right. But if it did happen, the event including its outcome is evidence of God's existence, though not necessarily his creation.
You may as well have asked, “If AverageBozo created the universe, why did he do it?”

As for the recorded miracles in the Bible, did Biblical authors record what they recorded based on evidence or based on literary license?

If in fact Jesus performed miracles, how would that be evidence of anything other than Jesus’ ability to perform miracles?
gad-fly
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Re: Why did God create the universe?

Post by gad-fly »

AverageBozo wrote: June 20th, 2021, 10:22 am
You may as well have asked, “If AverageBozo created the universe, why did he do it?”

As for the recorded miracles in the Bible, did Biblical authors record what they recorded based on evidence or based on literary license?

If in fact Jesus performed miracles, how would that be evidence of anything other than Jesus’ ability to perform miracles?
No. I do not pose silly question.

Evidence may be by written word, or by word of mouth. literary license is not necessary.

That Jesus has the ability to perform miracle shows more evidence than his ability, especially for the converted, though perhaps not on you. Say you have saved someone from drowning. Is that mere evidence of you being able to swim? Think outside the circle.

lest you think I believe God has created the universe, the answer is that I have never said so. suffice to say I keep reasonable doubt.
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