Why did God create the universe?

Discuss philosophical questions regarding theism (and atheism), and discuss religion as it relates to philosophy. This includes any philosophical discussions that happen to be about god, gods, or a 'higher power' or the belief of them. This also generally includes philosophical topics about organized or ritualistic mysticism or about organized, common or ritualistic beliefs in the existence of supernatural phenomenon.
Post Reply
Zosimus
Posts: 38
Joined: June 11th, 2021, 7:58 pm

Re: Why did God create the universe?

Post by Zosimus »

AverageBozo wrote: June 29th, 2021, 11:19 am
Zosimus wrote: June 29th, 2021, 7:32 am
But, can I not know with certainty that the square root of 2 is an irrational number or that the square of a hypotenuse of a right triangle is equal to the sum of the squares of the other two sides?
Are these inferences or mathematical equivalents?

Can you with certainty that mathematics is justified?
The starting point of all knowledge is the rational mind. Before you can try to find out what the truth is, you need to know that there really is something called truth. Can we prove that truth exists?

We can. We start by assuming that truth does not exist.
If truth does not exist, then the statement "Truth does not exist" is a true statement.
So, we have arrived at a contradiction. "Truth exists" is a necessary truth. Necessary truth means that the proposition could not possibly have been false.

Of course, someone might well say, "How can you justify logic?" Well, to paraphrase Ayn Rand, if you can argue against logic without using logic, I will consider your position. Or you could simply say, "I reject logic entirely for entirely illogical reasons." That would be fine with me too.

Rationalism arrived at certain knowledge. Scientific empiricism never arrives at certain knowledge. Yet, how often do I hear people say "I believe in science and logic!" You cannot. You can believe in either scientific empiricism or logic because scientific empiricism is inherently illogical and indefensible.
Atla
Posts: 2540
Joined: January 30th, 2018, 1:18 pm

Re: Why did God create the universe?

Post by Atla »

Zosimus wrote: June 29th, 2021, 1:24 pm
Atla wrote: June 29th, 2021, 10:19 am
Zosimus wrote: June 28th, 2021, 4:54 pm
Atla wrote: June 28th, 2021, 9:31 amAround where? Certain knowledge is impossible, "we know things" just means "as far as we can tell, but we can always turn out to be wrong". No evidence can produce certain knowledge.
You'll have to do better than that, these are rather weak strawmen.
I like the resounding way that you say "Certain knowledge is impossible." It sounds as though you are certain that you cannot be certain of anything. Perhaps you could explain to me exactly how you manage to say blatantly self contradictory statements without even a trace of irony.
Because I assume that the other person is competent enough to understand that "certain knowledge is impossible" is not a certain statement.
So, you want me to believe that certain knowledge is impossible even though you're far from certain that is the case?
Not far from certain, but never 100%.

Why do you even bother with this, after all you reject any evidence, so we can believe whatever we want right?
Then I'll believe that you owe me 1 million dollars and you can't prove that you don't have to pay. :)
True philosophy points to the Moon
Zosimus
Posts: 38
Joined: June 11th, 2021, 7:58 pm

Re: Why did God create the universe?

Post by Zosimus »

Atla wrote: June 29th, 2021, 1:44 pmNot far from certain, but never 100%.

Why do you even bother with this, after all you reject any evidence, so we can believe whatever we want right?
Then I'll believe that you owe me 1 million dollars and you can't prove that you don't have to pay. :)
So, it's your claim that anyone who believes that evidence doesn't and indeed can't prove things right believes that people can believe whatever they want? For example, I could believe that my car is both red all over and blue all over simultaneously? Could I also believe that if John is taller than Mary and Mary is taller than June, that June might well be taller than John?

Argumentum ad ignorantiam is a logical fallacy that claims that a lack of evidence is actually evidence for one side or the other. Your claim that I must owe you $1,000,000 if I can't prove I don't is an example of the fallacy. Similarly, claims that God doesn't exist because the person in question cannot prove that God does is another example of the fallacy. Another example is that God must have caused the Big Bang because science cannot prove he did not do so.

Your post is not an argument. It's pena ajena.
Atla
Posts: 2540
Joined: January 30th, 2018, 1:18 pm

Re: Why did God create the universe?

Post by Atla »

Zosimus wrote: June 29th, 2021, 3:07 pm So, it's your claim that anyone who believes that evidence doesn't and indeed can't prove things right believes that people can believe whatever they want? For example, I could believe that my car is both red all over and blue all over simultaneously? Could I also believe that if John is taller than Mary and Mary is taller than June, that June might well be taller than John?
Why not? People had some evidence that the world seems to behave according to some certain laws of logic, but you've thrown that out.
Argumentum ad ignorantiam is a logical fallacy that claims that a lack of evidence is actually evidence for one side or the other. Your claim that I must owe you $1,000,000 if I can't prove I don't is an example of the fallacy. Similarly, claims that God doesn't exist because the person in question cannot prove that God does is another example of the fallacy. Another example is that God must have caused the Big Bang because science cannot prove he did not do so.

Your post is not an argument. It's pena ajena.
I didn't say that you owe me money IF you can't prove that you don't. I just said that you owe me money period (and you can't prove that you don't, because we can't prove anything).
True philosophy points to the Moon
Zosimus
Posts: 38
Joined: June 11th, 2021, 7:58 pm

Re: Why did God create the universe?

Post by Zosimus »

Atla wrote: June 29th, 2021, 3:45 pmWhy not? People had some evidence that the world seems to behave according to some certain laws of logic, but you've thrown that out.
It's sad that you talk about logic, when you clearly know nothing about logic at all.

Here's a simple statement: If it rains, the ground will get wet. Assuming that this is true, what do we know if it rains? We know that the ground will be wet.

But what if we just see that the ground is wet? Can we conclude that it rained? No, we cannot. It's possible that the river overflowed. It's possible that the snow melted. It's possible that someone ran over a fire hydrant. It's possible that a city water pipe burst. It's possible that the sewer main backed up.

So, it doesn't matter how many times you measure the wetness of the ground. It doesn't matter how many different measures of wetness you use. It doesn't matter how many data points you gather. None of this will ever lead to "overwhelming evidence for rain." Regardless of how much evidence you pump into this logical fallacy, you will never succeed in pumping truth out the other end because logical fallacies just don't do that.

Now, I know you would like to somehow spin this argument into a claim that I must owe you $1,000,000. Or that I have thrown out the rules of logic. Or that somehow repeated commissions of logical fallacies will lead to truth if you just cram enough evidence into the machine. But, none of that is true.
AverageBozo
Posts: 502
Joined: May 11th, 2021, 11:20 am

Re: Why did God create the universe?

Post by AverageBozo »

Zosimus wrote: June 30th, 2021, 8:22 am
Atla wrote: June 29th, 2021, 3:45 pmWhy not? People had some evidence that the world seems to behave according to some certain laws of logic, but you've thrown that out.
It's sad that you talk about logic, when you clearly know nothing about logic at all.

Here's a simple statement: If it rains, the ground will get wet. Assuming that this is true, what do we know if it rains? We know that the ground will be wet.

But what if we just see that the ground is wet? Can we conclude that it rained? No, we cannot. It's possible that the river overflowed. It's possible that the snow melted. It's possible that someone ran over a fire hydrant. It's possible that a city water pipe burst. It's possible that the sewer main backed up.

So, it doesn't matter how many times you measure the wetness of the ground. It doesn't matter how many different measures of wetness you use. It doesn't matter how many data points you gather. None of this will ever lead to "overwhelming evidence for rain." Regardless of how much evidence you pump into this logical fallacy, you will never succeed in pumping truth out the other end because logical fallacies just don't do that.

Now, I know you would like to somehow spin this argument into a claim that I must owe you $1,000,000. Or that I have thrown out the rules of logic. Or that somehow repeated commissions of logical fallacies will lead to truth if you just cram enough evidence into the machine. But, none of that is true.
Well put.
Atla
Posts: 2540
Joined: January 30th, 2018, 1:18 pm

Re: Why did God create the universe?

Post by Atla »

Zosimus wrote: June 30th, 2021, 8:22 am
Atla wrote: June 29th, 2021, 3:45 pmWhy not? People had some evidence that the world seems to behave according to some certain laws of logic, but you've thrown that out.
It's sad that you talk about logic, when you clearly know nothing about logic at all.

Here's a simple statement: If it rains, the ground will get wet. Assuming that this is true, what do we know if it rains? We know that the ground will be wet.

But what if we just see that the ground is wet? Can we conclude that it rained? No, we cannot. It's possible that the river overflowed. It's possible that the snow melted. It's possible that someone ran over a fire hydrant. It's possible that a city water pipe burst. It's possible that the sewer main backed up.

So, it doesn't matter how many times you measure the wetness of the ground. It doesn't matter how many different measures of wetness you use. It doesn't matter how many data points you gather. None of this will ever lead to "overwhelming evidence for rain." Regardless of how much evidence you pump into this logical fallacy, you will never succeed in pumping truth out the other end because logical fallacies just don't do that.

Now, I know you would like to somehow spin this argument into a claim that I must owe you $1,000,000. Or that I have thrown out the rules of logic. Or that somehow repeated commissions of logical fallacies will lead to truth if you just cram enough evidence into the machine. But, none of that is true.
Woosh

Why do you suddenly claim that the ground can get wet because of rain / overflowing river / melting snow / fire hydrant / pipe burst / sewer? By establishing a connection between the wet ground and these things, are you alluding to some sort of observational.. evidence?
True philosophy points to the Moon
Zosimus
Posts: 38
Joined: June 11th, 2021, 7:58 pm

Re: Why did God create the universe?

Post by Zosimus »

Atla wrote: June 30th, 2021, 10:45 amWoosh

Why do you suddenly claim that the ground can get wet because of rain / overflowing river / melting snow / fire hydrant / pipe burst / sewer? By establishing a connection between the wet ground and these things, are you alluding to some sort of observational.. evidence?
No, logic has nothing to do with evidence. I could just as easily say: If kryptonite is present, Superman will feel weak. That doesn't mean that kryptonite exists, that Superman exists, or that I have personally observed Superman become weak in the presence of kryptonite.

Apparently, you want to argue that evidence is important regardless of the logical structure. Great — let's try it your way to see whether it works out well.

The Sun is yellow therefore God exists and created the universe so we would love him.
Roses are red therefore God exists and created the universe so we would love him.
Salmya Hayek is mega hot therefore God exists and created the universe so we would love him.
My car is a Nissan therefore God exists and created the universe so we would love him.
My cat is hungry therefore God exists and created the universe so we would love him.
I need to pay my electric bill therefore God exists and created the universe so we would love him.
My rent is due tomorrow therefore God exists and created the universe so we would love him.
There's an ant crawling on my desk therefore God exists and created the universe so we would love him.
====================================================
Well, there you have it. Using the amazing Atla evidence method for justified belief, we have provided overwhelming evidence for God's existence and explained the reason He created the universe.
Atla
Posts: 2540
Joined: January 30th, 2018, 1:18 pm

Re: Why did God create the universe?

Post by Atla »

Zosimus wrote: June 30th, 2021, 2:11 pm No, logic has nothing to do with evidence.
The laws of thought (the three fundamental laws of logic) were always found to be consistent with how the natural world behaves. For this consistency we had evidence, but now evidence is a no-go.
True philosophy points to the Moon
Zosimus
Posts: 38
Joined: June 11th, 2021, 7:58 pm

Re: Why did God create the universe?

Post by Zosimus »

Atla wrote: July 1st, 2021, 10:39 amThe laws of thought (the three fundamental laws of logic) were always found to be consistent with how the natural world behaves.
It's doubtful that you think so. In every post you make here, you violate the laws of thought multiple times. You never fail to imply in your passive-aggressive style that I have thrown out evidence. Yet, you refuse to provide any evidence for evidence.

Well? Which is it? Is evidence important or is evidence not important? There is no excluded middle. If evidence is important, then it's important that you provide evidence for evidence. Do so. If evidence is not important, then stop whining about it so much.
For this consistency we had evidence, but now evidence is a no-go.
It seems that you have no answer to my argument, so you only mischaracterize it. As I said before, evidence is only important if placed into a valid logical structure. Here's an example: If it rained, the ground will be wet. The ground is dry, so it didn't rain.

Exactly how does my insistence that you use valid logical structures convert evidence into "a no-go?" Are you admitting that you cannot use valid logical structures with your evidence? If not, then what are you saying?
Atla
Posts: 2540
Joined: January 30th, 2018, 1:18 pm

Re: Why did God create the universe?

Post by Atla »

Zosimus wrote: July 1st, 2021, 11:33 am
Atla wrote: July 1st, 2021, 10:39 amThe laws of thought (the three fundamental laws of logic) were always found to be consistent with how the natural world behaves.
It's doubtful that you think so. In every post you make here, you violate the laws of thought multiple times.
Seriously :roll:

I wrote that way to show how absurd your evidence-free idea is. Maybe it worked too well.
True philosophy points to the Moon
AverageBozo
Posts: 502
Joined: May 11th, 2021, 11:20 am

Re: Why did God create the universe?

Post by AverageBozo »

AverageBozo wrote: June 29th, 2021, 11:19 am
Zosimus wrote: June 29th, 2021, 7:32 am
But, can I not know with certainty that the square root of 2 is an irrational number or that the square of a hypotenuse of a right triangle is equal to the sum of the squares of the other two sides?
Are these inferences or mathematical equivalents?

Why do you say that you can know with certainty that mathematics is justified?
The above are not gotcha questions, Zosimus. I sincerely would like to hear your thoughts on the above two as well as addressing the fact that math is actually a language, and as such its statements are meant as definitions to be accepted a priori as just a part of the structure of math.
Zosimus
Posts: 38
Joined: June 11th, 2021, 7:58 pm

Re: Why did God create the universe?

Post by Zosimus »

Atla wrote: July 1st, 2021, 11:57 am
Zosimus wrote: July 1st, 2021, 11:33 am
Atla wrote: July 1st, 2021, 10:39 amThe laws of thought (the three fundamental laws of logic) were always found to be consistent with how the natural world behaves.
It's doubtful that you think so. In every post you make here, you violate the laws of thought multiple times.
Seriously :roll:

I wrote that way to show how absurd your evidence-free idea is. Maybe it worked too well.
There is no evidence-free idea. This is a straw man argument on your part.

Let's start again right from the beginning. Someone said, "There's no evidence for God." This is false. As Hempel's Paradox shows, the non-existence of the tooth fairy is actually evidence for God, even though atheists stupidly run around saying, "The tooth fairy doesn't exist, so there is no God."

Second, some people have said, "The evidence for God isn't really persuasive, so God doesn't exist." This is an example of the argumentum ad ignorantiam fallacy. You cannot say this.

Now, you are claiming that I have an "evidence-free idea" because I say that rationalism, a philosophical position, is superior to empiricism, a competing philosophical idea. Strangely enough, I came to a philosophy forum for the express purpose of debating this concept.

Let's rehash the argument. Before you can determine the truth, you must first be convinced that truth exists. How do we know that truth exists? Simple. If we adopt the statement "Truth does not exist" then we are saying "The statement 'truth does not exist' is a true statement." Proof by contradiction leads us to adopt the statement "Truth exists" as a necessary truth.

Empiricism, I hasten to remind you, is the theory that all knowledge is derived from sense-experience. Obviously, you have been indoctrinated in this worldview since you were knee-high to a grasshopper. Very well. Using sense-experience (hereinafter called "evidence") demonstrate that all knowledge comes from experience. While you're at it, demonstrate that truth exists (using evidence).

If you cannot do so, then abandon empiricism and embrace rationalism.

What's your response to all of this?

"You owe me $1,000,000."

Seriously?! That's your argument?! You've got to be sheeting me.
Zosimus
Posts: 38
Joined: June 11th, 2021, 7:58 pm

Re: Why did God create the universe?

Post by Zosimus »

AverageBozo wrote: July 1st, 2021, 2:47 pm
AverageBozo wrote: June 29th, 2021, 11:19 am
Zosimus wrote: June 29th, 2021, 7:32 am
But, can I not know with certainty that the square root of 2 is an irrational number or that the square of a hypotenuse of a right triangle is equal to the sum of the squares of the other two sides?
Are these inferences or mathematical equivalents?

Why do you say that you can know with certainty that mathematics is justified?
The above are not gotcha questions, Zosimus. I sincerely would like to hear your thoughts on the above two as well as addressing the fact that math is actually a language, and as such its statements are meant as definitions to be accepted a priori as just a part of the structure of math.
If math is a language, please indicate how I can use math to ask someone a question.

If you cannot use math to ask someone a question, please identify some human language in which you cannot ask someone a question.

In case this is not obvious, I am contending that mathematics is not a language.

The only reason I can imagine that someone disagrees with math would be that someone disagrees with one of Peano's postulates. Kindly indicate which one you disagree with.

Or perhaps you are objecting to the idea that an ant is an insect because the definition of "insect" is purposely designed to include ants. And thus, indirectly, trying to say that a rational number is not logically justified because our only justification is that we defined rational numbers in a specific way.
AverageBozo
Posts: 502
Joined: May 11th, 2021, 11:20 am

Re: Why did God create the universe?

Post by AverageBozo »

The existence of the tooth fairy has no bearing on the existence of God. It is not a contradiction to Hempel’s to say that since the tooth fairy does not exist, there is neither evidence for nor against the existence of God.

Thus begins the debate over the existence of God. By faith, I.e. without need for evidence, there can be a God. By rationalism or empiricism there can be a God. And by any account there could instead be no God.
Post Reply

Return to “Philosophy of Religion, Theism and Mythology”

2023/2024 Philosophy Books of the Month

Entanglement - Quantum and Otherwise

Entanglement - Quantum and Otherwise
by John K Danenbarger
January 2023

Mark Victor Hansen, Relentless: Wisdom Behind the Incomparable Chicken Soup for the Soul

Mark Victor Hansen, Relentless: Wisdom Behind the Incomparable Chicken Soup for the Soul
by Mitzi Perdue
February 2023

Rediscovering the Wisdom of Human Nature: How Civilization Destroys Happiness

Rediscovering the Wisdom of Human Nature: How Civilization Destroys Happiness
by Chet Shupe
March 2023

The Unfakeable Code®

The Unfakeable Code®
by Tony Jeton Selimi
April 2023

The Book: On the Taboo Against Knowing Who You Are

The Book: On the Taboo Against Knowing Who You Are
by Alan Watts
May 2023

Killing Abel

Killing Abel
by Michael Tieman
June 2023

Reconfigurement: Reconfiguring Your Life at Any Stage and Planning Ahead

Reconfigurement: Reconfiguring Your Life at Any Stage and Planning Ahead
by E. Alan Fleischauer
July 2023

First Survivor: The Impossible Childhood Cancer Breakthrough

First Survivor: The Impossible Childhood Cancer Breakthrough
by Mark Unger
August 2023

Predictably Irrational

Predictably Irrational
by Dan Ariely
September 2023

Artwords

Artwords
by Beatriz M. Robles
November 2023

Fireproof Happiness: Extinguishing Anxiety & Igniting Hope

Fireproof Happiness: Extinguishing Anxiety & Igniting Hope
by Dr. Randy Ross
December 2023

Beyond the Golden Door: Seeing the American Dream Through an Immigrant's Eyes

Beyond the Golden Door: Seeing the American Dream Through an Immigrant's Eyes
by Ali Master
February 2024

2022 Philosophy Books of the Month

Emotional Intelligence At Work

Emotional Intelligence At Work
by Richard M Contino & Penelope J Holt
January 2022

Free Will, Do You Have It?

Free Will, Do You Have It?
by Albertus Kral
February 2022

My Enemy in Vietnam

My Enemy in Vietnam
by Billy Springer
March 2022

2X2 on the Ark

2X2 on the Ark
by Mary J Giuffra, PhD
April 2022

The Maestro Monologue

The Maestro Monologue
by Rob White
May 2022

What Makes America Great

What Makes America Great
by Bob Dowell
June 2022

The Truth Is Beyond Belief!

The Truth Is Beyond Belief!
by Jerry Durr
July 2022

Living in Color

Living in Color
by Mike Murphy
August 2022 (tentative)

The Not So Great American Novel

The Not So Great American Novel
by James E Doucette
September 2022

Mary Jane Whiteley Coggeshall, Hicksite Quaker, Iowa/National Suffragette And Her Speeches

Mary Jane Whiteley Coggeshall, Hicksite Quaker, Iowa/National Suffragette And Her Speeches
by John N. (Jake) Ferris
October 2022

In It Together: The Beautiful Struggle Uniting Us All

In It Together: The Beautiful Struggle Uniting Us All
by Eckhart Aurelius Hughes
November 2022

The Smartest Person in the Room: The Root Cause and New Solution for Cybersecurity

The Smartest Person in the Room
by Christian Espinosa
December 2022

2021 Philosophy Books of the Month

The Biblical Clock: The Untold Secrets Linking the Universe and Humanity with God's Plan

The Biblical Clock
by Daniel Friedmann
March 2021

Wilderness Cry: A Scientific and Philosophical Approach to Understanding God and the Universe

Wilderness Cry
by Dr. Hilary L Hunt M.D.
April 2021

Fear Not, Dream Big, & Execute: Tools To Spark Your Dream And Ignite Your Follow-Through

Fear Not, Dream Big, & Execute
by Jeff Meyer
May 2021

Surviving the Business of Healthcare: Knowledge is Power

Surviving the Business of Healthcare
by Barbara Galutia Regis M.S. PA-C
June 2021

Winning the War on Cancer: The Epic Journey Towards a Natural Cure

Winning the War on Cancer
by Sylvie Beljanski
July 2021

Defining Moments of a Free Man from a Black Stream

Defining Moments of a Free Man from a Black Stream
by Dr Frank L Douglas
August 2021

If Life Stinks, Get Your Head Outta Your Buts

If Life Stinks, Get Your Head Outta Your Buts
by Mark L. Wdowiak
September 2021

The Preppers Medical Handbook

The Preppers Medical Handbook
by Dr. William W Forgey M.D.
October 2021

Natural Relief for Anxiety and Stress: A Practical Guide

Natural Relief for Anxiety and Stress
by Dr. Gustavo Kinrys, MD
November 2021

Dream For Peace: An Ambassador Memoir

Dream For Peace
by Dr. Ghoulem Berrah
December 2021